• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Nikolas Cruz was an 'equal opportunity killer' - attorney

soylentgreen

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
18,819
Reaction score
5,167
Location
new zealand.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
If you were sitting on the jury. What would your reaction be to this argument?

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/w...n-see-swastikas-school-shooter-drew-in-class/
Well, I do recall a case where the lawyer argued that his client, who had been charged with murdering his (separated) wife, should be released from custody pending his trial since his client posed no threat to society on the grounds that his client had "eliminated the entire class of persons against whom he had animus".

The judge didn't actually laugh out loud at that one.
 
What I find interesting is how often English teachers and professors are the ones who see the problems in their writing-- Cruz, Loughner in Tucson, and Cho at Virginia Tech, to name a couple of other notorious killers--and how often in between FERPA restraints and bosses/administrators, they are constrained from saying more or ignored.
 
This kind of thing is an unexpected consequence of "hate crime" laws.
Actually, it was an Expected consequence, unless you were exceedingly dumb, or Liberal. If enhanced penalties Work to reduce crime, then enhance penalties for violent crimes across the board, to protect ALL of us.
 
Actually, it was an Expected consequence, unless you were exceedingly dumb, or Liberal. If enhanced penalties Work to reduce crime, then enhance penalties for violent crimes across the board, to protect ALL of us.
Actually they don't (at least not to any significant extent).

Your "average criminal" operates on the (unstated) assumption that they will NEVER GET CAUGHT, but if they do get caught they will NEVER BE PROSECUTED, but if they do get prosecuted they will NEVER BE CONVICTED, but if they are convicted they will NEVER GO TO JAIL, but if they do go to jail they will NEVER SERVE A LONG SENTENCE.

That means that "severity of punishment" has very little to do with whether your "average criminal" commits whatever illegal act they are thinking of committing.

What DOES act as a deterrent is SPEED AND CERTAINTY OF APPREHENSION, TRIAL, AND PUNISHMENT.
 
Actually they don't (at least not to any significant extent).

Your "average criminal" operates on the (unstated) assumption that they will NEVER GET CAUGHT, but if they do get caught they will NEVER BE PROSECUTED, but if they do get prosecuted they will NEVER BE CONVICTED, but if they are convicted they will NEVER GO TO JAIL, but if they do go to jail they will NEVER SERVE A LONG SENTENCE.

That means that "severity of punishment" has very little to do with whether your "average criminal" commits whatever illegal act they are thinking of committing.

What DOES act as a deterrent is SPEED AND CERTAINTY OF APPREHENSION, TRIAL, AND PUNISHMENT.
Surprisingly, I mostly agree with you, although I suspect that making littering a capital crime might reduce it somewhat. Certainty is important. Adding additional hoops for the prosecutor to jump through to arrive at a meaningful sentence makes it more unlikely to happen. Hate crime enhancements being required to get a sentence which should not require them is one such frivolous hoop. Setting pre-trial detention standards so high that the prosecutor has to essentially conduct a Preliminary Hearing to detain someone who has committed murder on camera is another. This is particularly true where the prosecuting attorney is often young and inexperienced, in places like New Mexico, where Asst. DAs make the same, or a little less, than school teachers. Here, where the cops really want someone, they try to get the FBI or US Marshalls involved, so the case can go to Federal Court, where detention is much more likely and sentences are often mandatory, with limited parole. US Marshalls are also a bit more generous with lead, as they don't have the US Justice Dept. Civil Rights Div. looking over their shoulder. (Ironic, huh?)
 
Surprisingly, I mostly agree with you, although I suspect that making littering a capital crime might reduce it somewhat. Certainty is important. Adding additional hoops for the prosecutor to jump through to arrive at a meaningful sentence makes it more unlikely to happen. Hate crime enhancements being required to get a sentence which should not require them is one such frivolous hoop. Setting pre-trial detention standards so high that the prosecutor has to essentially conduct a Preliminary Hearing to detain someone who has committed murder on camera is another. This is particularly true where the prosecuting attorney is often young and inexperienced, in places like New Mexico, where Asst. DAs make the same, or a little less, than school teachers. Here, where the cops really want someone, they try to get the FBI or US Marshalls involved, so the case can go to Federal Court, where detention is much more likely and sentences are often mandatory, with limited parole. US Marshalls are also a bit more generous with lead, as they don't have the US Justice Dept. Civil Rights Div. looking over their shoulder. (Ironic, huh?)
Personally I have no problems with being quite generous in granting "pretrial release".

Mind you, I also have very little difficulty with revoking that "pretrial release" in cases where the conditions of that release have been violated.

How that would work is that if someone is arrested for DUI, they could quite easily be released on a surety (which they are able to raise personally) PLUS an undertaking not to consume alcohol either in public or to the extent that they raise the blood alcohol about (let's say) 0.5. The person posts the surety and agrees to the undertaking. Three days later they are spotted coming out of "Mom's Bar" and staggering towards their car. Their blood alcohol is tested at 0.9. They are returned to custody and stay there until trial BUT their surety is returned to them.
 
Personally I have no problems with being quite generous in granting "pretrial release".

Mind you, I also have very little difficulty with revoking that "pretrial release" in cases where the conditions of that release have been violated.

How that would work is that if someone is arrested for DUI, they could quite easily be released on a surety (which they are able to raise personally) PLUS an undertaking not to consume alcohol either in public or to the extent that they raise the blood alcohol about (let's say) 0.5. The person posts the surety and agrees to the undertaking. Three days later they are spotted coming out of "Mom's Bar" and staggering towards their car. Their blood alcohol is tested at 0.9. They are returned to custody and stay there until trial BUT their surety is returned to them.
It appears that you have mostly been exposed to Real judges. NM experience is that offender (and not just DWI, violent felonies too) will be given a stern lecture and returned to pretrial release. Probation violators are also usually given the lecture with no consequences treatment, unless the court is in Little Texas (eastern NM).
 
It appears that you have mostly been exposed to Real judges. NM experience is that offender (and not just DWI, violent felonies too) will be given a stern lecture and returned to pretrial release. Probation violators are also usually given the lecture with no consequences treatment, unless the court is in Little Texas (eastern NM).
The judges that I have had the pleasure (and pain) of dealing with have (in general) seen that their task is to UPHOLD the law. That means that, when the prosecution does not make its case to the extent required, they don't find the accused "sort of guilty" and adjust sentence accordingly.

The police that I have had the pleasure (and pain) of dealing with have (in general) seen that their task is to INVESTIGATE crimes (and, where appropriate, apprehend the suspected malefactor [which they, almost unanimously, interpret to mean apprehend alive]).

Since the prosecutors that I have had the pleasure (and pain) of dealing with were NOT elected, they have (in general) see that their task is to obtain convictions by the introduction of sufficiently compelling evidence that was obtained through legal methods to establish their case beyond a reasonable doubt and to present their case in such a manner as to minimize the possibility of having any conviction overturned on appeal.

The defence counsel that I have had the pleasure (and pain) of dealing with have (in general) been content to present their case in such a manner as to convince the judge that the prosecution's case had NOT reached the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level and to do so in such a manner as to minimize the possibility of having any acquittal overturned on appeal.

I will, however, admit that (in my personal opinion) judges have been just a tad too reluctant to totally revoke any pretrial release granted when the releasee had violated the conditions of their release and a bit too reluctant to consider a prisoner's prior history of failing to abide by release conditions.
 
Back
Top Bottom