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NHS millions for controversial care pathway

American

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NHS millions for controversial care pathway - Telegraph

Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For those that want us to be like Europe, you need to think about this. Remember the whole "Death Panel" controversy? This just re-enforces the concerns people have.
 
American said:
For those that want us to be like Europe, you need to think about this. Remember the whole "Death Panel" controversy? This just re-enforces the concerns people have.
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Only ignorant or misled people.

The LCP is only controversial because medical professionals have different views on the best way to handle end-of-life care and their perfectly reasonable discussions about that are spun out of all recognition by our trashy media. There are legitimate questions around the details but the principal is sound (and has been in place in one form or another for many years).

The target payments are nothing like as scary as the media make out. It isn't a target for killing patients (as they clearly intend to imply without actually saying) but a target for treating patients well. The only question is whether application of the LCP is the best measurement of treating patients well.

The whole "death panel" controversy was based on the same kind of misinformation, lies and politically gaming too.

The NHS is far from perfect but it isn't the evil monster some people like to make out (usually with totally unrelated political motivations). Incidentally, the NHS is also unlike the health care systems across the rest of Europe (which vary significantly themselves). The only way the USA would become "like Europe" would be to dissolve the Union.

Now please stop using us as tools in your petty partisan politics.
 
Bitch at Obama if you want to bitch, because he's the one that opened you up for questioning when you promoted the European model of healthcare. The article plainly gives the impression that someone is being rewarded for administering the LCP. The other issue is consent, and who is giving it. Why aren't families being informed?
 
You should have left out the wiki link. It weakens your argument that it's something dreadful or something to be feared.
Less information about it = stronger case for you.

They have an end of life program instead of not having one.
idk.
Seems like an improvement.

The hospitals receive bonuses for following established procedures. Doesn't sound that bad imho.

Before I read the wiki page it seemed more like hospitals were getting cash for pulling the plug on granny when she otherwise would have recovered. Which'd be horrible.
But after reading the wiki page, it seems more like they have established a set of procedures to help folks who're on their way out. Which actually sounds compassionate and nice. They receive bonuses for doing well at following procedures. Seems reasonable.

So additional info = bad for your case.

Maybe you can get a mod to lock this thread and start a new one w/o the wiki link?
 
American said:
Bitch at Obama if you want to bitch, because he's the one that opened you up for questioning when you promoted the European model of healthcare.
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As I said there is no "European model of healthcare". Different European countries have very different healthcare systems and as far as I'm aware, "Obamacare" is different again to all of them. Attacking the NHS (legitimately or not) says absolutely nothing about the US healthcare system.

American said:
The article plainly gives the impression that someone is being rewarded for administering the LCP.
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Under the principal that the LCP is recognised as best practice for end-of-life care, what is wrong with that?

American said:
The other issue is consent, and who is giving it. Why aren't families being informed?
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Because some people don't always follow the correct procedures. This isn't an issue with the NHS or LCP, it's a problem with human beings.
 

You obviously skipped the parts of the wikilink that didn't suit you. The whole argument isn't about what was intended, but what is perceived and apparently the actual result. Families not being consulted or informed....is that part of the programs intent? How about the money that is changing hands, looks like people are making decisions that err on the side of letting people die without consent.
 

Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Royal College of Physicians found that up to half of families were not informed of clinicians’ decision to put a relative on the pathway.[28]​
28 ^ a b Adams, Stephen (8 July 2012). "Hospitals 'letting patients die to save money'". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 24 July 2012.​
Hospitals 'letting patients die to save money’ - Telegraph
But up to half of families are not being informed of clinicians’ decision to put a relative on the pathway, the report by the Royal College of Physicians found.​
Consensus Statement: Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient (LCP) [Royal College of Physicians]
Emphasises that people should be involved in decisions about their care if possible and that carers and families should always be included in the decision-making process. Of those who responded as part of the evaluation, 94% said that they had been involved (National Care of the Dying Audit – Hospitals, MCPCIL/RCP, 2011).​
Liverpool Care Pathway Consensus Statement - September 2012​

I'll certainly have to give you that it has a perception problem.

Now are you complaining about the system?
Or are you complaining that people aren't using the system properly?
 

Life expectancys in Europe consistantly are higher than U.S numbers so they must be doing something right. This is about how long you can expect to live isn't it?
 
You mean the insurance company death panels? Them the ones that scares me. I think the death panels were Palin and Fox News. Geeze.
 

Question #1 is hard to answer since it appears unclear as to how the system should work. Question #2 is probably a YES since perception is likely at least partially true.
 
American said:
Question #1 is hard to answer since it appears unclear as to how the system should work. Question #2 is probably a YES since perception is likely at least partially true.
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If you don't know how the system is meant to work, how can you justify condemning it in the first place?

People not using systems properly is a problem way beyond the NHS, the UK or Europe. One of the reasons the LCP was introduced was inconsistency in how patients (and families) were being treated in the hospital environment.
 
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