• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

new york times: In the House, a Refusal to Govern

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
On two crucial issues this week, the extremists who dominate the Republican majority in the House of Representatives made it clear how little interest they have in the future prosperity of their country, or its reputation for fairness and decency.

The House will refuse to consider a comprehensive immigration bill that could lead to citizenship for millions of immigrants, Republican leaders said on Wednesday, and will slowly and casually consider a few border-security measures that have no chance of passing on their own.

And, on Thursday, the House passed a farm bill that stripped out the food stamp program, breaking a pact that for decades has protected the nutrition needs of low-income Americans. It was the first time since 1973 that food stamps haven’t been part of a farm bill, and it reflected the contempt of the far right for anyone desperate enough to rely on the government for help to buy groceries.

These actions show how far the House has retreated from the national mainstream into a cave of indifference and ignorance. House members don’t want to know that millions of Americans remain hungry (in an economy held back by their own austerity ideology), and they don’t want to deal with the desperation of immigrant families who want nothing more than a chance to work and feed themselves without fear of deportation.

On both issues, in fact, many House Republicans are proudly asserting that they will stand in the way of any attempts to conduct a conference with the Senate. That might, after all, lead to a compromise.

Few things sum up the attitude of the current crop of Republicans in Washington than their loathing of conference committees. On issue after issue, they have passed radical bills and then refused to negotiate. On Thursday, for example, Senate Republicans refused for the 16th time to allow the Democratic Senate budget to be negotiated with its dangerously stingy counterpart in the House.

On immigration, House members fear a conference with the Senate would add back the pathway to citizenship that they consider a giveaway to undesirable non-English speakers. The eventual House border bills “should not be handed to a conference committee so that they can be reconciled with the Senate bill,” wrote Representative Tom Cotton of Arkansas in The Wall Street Journal on Thursday. Instead, he and others say, the Senate should be forced to take up whatever the House produces.

Similarly, on the farm bill, Democrats said Republicans are insisting on conditions to a conference that would limit, in advance, the size of the food stamp program that the Senate could restore in negotiations. Clearly they are listening to bad advisers like the right-wing group Heritage Action for America, which warned on Thursday that a farm-bill compromise “will be very appealing to big-government liberals and appalling to conservatives who should be trying to reduce the size and scope of government.”

A refusal to even to sit at a bargaining table is another way of refusing to govern. The nation’s founders created two chambers for a reason, but Republicans, in their blind fury to harm the least fortunate, are forgetting even those fundamental national values.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/opinion/in-the-house-a-refusal-to-govern.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&

at what point does this kind of governing, or lack therof, stop? Why are the house republicans refusing to go to conference committees and hammer out the differences between the senate and house bills.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Not agreeing to things one opposes is a form of governing. If compromise is the issue, then why isn't the Senate willing to compromise to give up the pathway to citizenship or significantly reduce the size of Food Stamps?

These things are nothing more than ambushes as far as the GOP sees it because everytime they sit at the table with the Dems, nothing gets done; Dems refuse to compromise; and then the Dems and Obama carpetbomb the airwaves with GOP Be Evil Anti-Americans crap for two weeks.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Not agreeing to things one opposes is a form of governing. If compromise is the issue, then why isn't the Senate willing to compromise to give up the pathway to citizenship or significantly reduce the size of Food Stamps?

These things are nothing more than ambushes as far as the GOP sees it because everytime they sit at the table with the Dems, nothing gets done; Dems refuse to compromise; and then the Dems and Obama carpetbomb the airwaves with GOP Be Evil Anti-Americans crap for two weeks.
why are the republicans afraid to attend conference committees to hammer out differances between senate and house bills?
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
why are the republicans afraid to attend conference committees to hammer out differances between senate and house bills?
I just told you--there is no point other than to give the democrats something new to create political theater with. Irreconcilable differences cannot be reconciled. Why are the Senate dems refusing to take up the House versions of the immigration and farm bill that have been passed?
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,547
Reaction score
37,776
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/opinion/in-the-house-a-refusal-to-govern.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&

at what point does this kind of governing, or lack therof, stop? Why are the house republicans refusing to go to conference committees and hammer out the differences between the senate and house bills.
If one party wants to cut something and the other party wants to increase something, is it not a compromise to simply do neither? What House immigration bill has been passed to send to a conference committee?
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I just told you--there is no point other than to give the democrats something new to create political theater with. Irreconcilable differences cannot be reconciled. Why are the Senate dems refusing to take up the House versions of the immigration and farm bill that have been passed?
like you said, irreconcilable differances.

On immigration, House members fear a conference with the Senate would add back the pathway to citizenship that they consider a giveaway to undesirable non-English speakers. The eventual House border bills “should not be handed to a conference committee so that they can be reconciled with the Senate bill,” wrote Representative Tom Cotton of Arkansas in The Wall Street Journal on Thursday. Instead, he and others say, the Senate should be forced to take up whatever the House produces.

Similarly, on the farm bill, Democrats said Republicans are insisting on conditions to a conference that would limit, in advance, the size of the food stamp program that the Senate could restore in negotiations.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
If one party wants to cut something and the other party wants to increase something, is it not a compromise to simply do neither? What House immigration bill has been passed to send to a conference committee?
so far the house has not passed a immigration bill of its own.

the point of comprimise is not to get everything you want, but getting what you can out of the negotiating.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
like you said, irreconcilable differances.
If I oppose something and refuse to compromise and you support something and refuse to compromise, compromise is not possible. Perhaps the democratic leadership in the Senate will actually negotiate in good faith and stop trying to use the House GOP as a punching bag because they are devoid of common sense and reason, but until then........Those in the House who oppose a pathway to citizenship win. Why would they compromise when they have already won on the issue?
 

YoungConserv

DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
3,083
Reaction score
601
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Governing does not allways mean passing bills some times the best thing for the country is for congress to be the people's cheerleaders not the referee coming up with new rules.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,547
Reaction score
37,776
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
so far the house has not passed a immigration bill of its own.

the point of comprimise is not to get everything you want, but getting what you can out of the negotiating.
If you want no amnesty for illegal aliens (or any other federal criminals) then what is a reasonable compromise? It is not as if we now have no immigration policy, it is that policy which allowed about 11 million folks to "slip through the cracks". The only reason that amnesty is even an issue is the lack of enforcement of the current law. If a U.S. citizen cannot get amnesty for a ten year old traffic charge or unpaid debt then why allow foreigners to come forward, fully admit to breaking the law and then give them something not even available to their brother or sister that did not enter (or remain in) this country illegally? What is "fair" about amnesty, from the perspective of those that did not yet enter (or remain in) the U.S. illegally?
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
If I oppose something and refuse to compromise and you support something and refuse to compromise, compromise is not possible. Perhaps the democratic leadership in the Senate will actually negotiate in good faith and stop trying to use the House GOP as a punching bag because they are devoid of common sense and reason, but until then........Those in the House who oppose a pathway to citizenship win. Why would they compromise when they have already won on the issue?
hard to negotiate with someone who will not come to the negotiating table.

besides how come the senate democrats are the only ones getting the blame for negotiating in bad faith? Here is what one house republican said about the house immigration bill

The eventual House border bills “should not be handed to a conference committee so that they can be reconciled with the Senate bill,” wrote Representative Tom Cotton of Arkansas in The Wall Street Journal on Thursday. Instead, he and others say, the Senate should be forced to take up whatever the House produces.
"forced to take up whatever the house produces?". how is that a reasonable negotiating position?
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
If you want no amnesty for illegal aliens (or any other federal criminals) then what is a reasonable compromise? It is not as if we now have no immigration policy, it is that policy which allowed about 11 million folks to "slip through the cracks". The only reason that amnesty is even an issue is the lack of enforcement of the current law. If a U.S. citizen cannot get amnesty for a ten year old traffic charge or unpaid debt then why allow foreigners to come forward, fully admit to breaking the law and then give them something not even available to their brother or sister that did not enter (or remain in) this country illegally? What is "fair" about amnesty, from the perspective of those that did not yet enter (or remain in) the U.S. illegally?

If the house is so concerned about this why not try and fix it in conference committee?

let me guess, republicans hate conference committee 's because it was such a committee that passed the affordable care act?
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,547
Reaction score
37,776
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
If the house is so concerned about this why not try and fix it in conference committee?

let me guess, republicans hate conference committee 's because it was such a committee that passed the affordable care act?
PPACA passed with ZERO republicant votes, that was not a compromise in any sense of the word. Since the demorats can no longer do that it is suddnely now time to compromise? How about this for a compromise: repeal PPACA in exchange for passing the Senate immigration bill?
 
Last edited:

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
PPACA passed with ZERO republicant votes, that was not a compromise in any sense of the word. Since the demorats can no longer do that it is suddnely now time to compromise? How about this for a compromise: repeal PPACA in exchange for passing the Senate immigratoin bill?
healthcare reform was a long, bloody fight. it had to go through committee's in both house and senate, it had to go without many of the things progressive democrats wanted like single payer, and it took senator Arlen specter changing party and voting for its passage in committee along with Olympia snowe and Susan Collins. maybe the reason there were no republicans who supported it because they were united as a party to destroying the affordable care act and preventing it from passing. republicans have been against health care reform from day one. how can you compromise that position?

and as for the offer of repealing the affordable care act in exchange for the immigration bill? that's in effect the same kind of ultimatum that Austria demanded from Serbia in 1914 which serbia refused to sign and Austria declared war shortly thereafter
 

iliveonramen

Pontificator
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
11,257
Reaction score
5,711
Location
On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/12/opinion/in-the-house-a-refusal-to-govern.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&

at what point does this kind of governing, or lack therof, stop? Why are the house republicans refusing to go to conference committees and hammer out the differences between the senate and house bills.
when voters stop electing them. I have a feeling that this will continue for years until long term trends start impacting current "safe seats". I don't think Republicans care that government is ineffective.
 

Unitedwestand13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20,687
Reaction score
6,251
Location
Sunnyvale California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
when voters stop electing them. I have a feeling that this will continue for years until long term trends start impacting current "safe seats". I don't think Republicans care that government is ineffective.
i have already gotten that impression from the responses i am getting.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
75,609
Reaction score
33,237
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Not agreeing to things one opposes is a form of governing. If compromise is the issue, then why isn't the Senate willing to compromise to give up the pathway to citizenship or significantly reduce the size of Food Stamps?

These things are nothing more than ambushes as far as the GOP sees it because everytime they sit at the table with the Dems, nothing gets done; Dems refuse to compromise; and then the Dems and Obama carpetbomb the airwaves with GOP Be Evil Anti-Americans crap for two weeks.
Are you seriously suggesting that the refusal to compromise has come entirely from Democrats?
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Are you seriously suggesting that the refusal to compromise has come entirely from Democrats?
Yes. Obama did not want the mandates that caused such a headache. The Senate democrats refused to compromise.
The Senate democrats refuse to compromise by giving up amnesty and a path to citizenship.
The Senate democrats refuse to cut food stamps commiserate with the expected economic recovery.
The House and the senate democrats deemed and passed Obamacare after Obama's photo-op summit where he tried to humiliate republicans and then refused to take any suggestions from them.
The House republicans compromised on the fiscal cliff and Obama immediately ran out in front of the TV cameras threatening to create another disaster unless they gave him a bunch of tax increases.

It takes two to tango. This is not all the GOP's doings by a long shot. The Senate's democratic leadership is every bit as radical left as the House's GOP leadership is radical right. So stop complaining about one side when the other side is doing the exact same thing. Both parties suck equally sucky.
 

fmw

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
12,361
Reaction score
3,358
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
so far the house has not passed a immigration bill of its own.
Perhaps it doesn't think one is necessary or appropriate

the point of comprimise is not to get everything you want, but getting what you can out of the negotiating.
There is no point in compromising over something you don't want at all. The republicans, like any politicians, are disinterested in giving their opponents 11 million new votes.
 
Top Bottom