• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

New York Governor Calls for Limits on the First Amendment in Response to Psychotic Killer

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
11,091
Reaction score
5,416
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Do you really think the founders would have perfectly perfected modern propaganda had they foreseen it being the primary tool used by every modern tyrant to establish and maintain their tyrannies?

They denied every tyrant’s tool they knew of at the time.

No they didn't. The primarily tool of all governments is the gun.


Professionals with degrees craft it, using a hundred years of research. And it works. Because tens of millions believe the election was stolen. All of whom get all their information from one mediasphere.

So what? That different people have different opinions on some issue is not an argument to restrict free speech.
 

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
11,091
Reaction score
5,416
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
They didn't feel the need to own the land, they used what they needed from the land. If ownership of land is your benchmark to be an American, what
is your opinion of those who rent homes as opposed to owning them.

If they didn't own the land, then they didn't lose anything to the European colonists.
 

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
11,091
Reaction score
5,416
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
That’s not true. There’s maybe 100,000,000 more people to the US population than there otherwise would have been solely because of immigration law changes in 1965. We have basically built 35 manhattans for new arrivals and their descendants. Now we have water shortages in the south west, high housing costs, less political freedom, and more division in society

What's the excuse for not having an open border for only educated or highly skilled immigrants?
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
What's the excuse for not having an open border for only educated or highly skilled immigrants?
That large scale immigration hurts the political cohesion of the body politic. Plus most “skilled” immigration is a scam as well, it’s very common for employers to keep wages down in skilled fields by importing “skilled” workers from India or China and claiming there’s no skilled Americans to do work while at the same time they laid off skilled Americans. Disney did this before 2016, they subcontracted some of their IT to company that imported Indians and forced their American employees to train the new Indians (who should have already been able to do that work and should not have displaced Americans in the first place according to the law) how to do it.

There’s pretty much no upside for Americans except the very wealthy and left wing political activists to immigration, whether skilled or not. If Silicone valley can’t find skilled workers they should open coding schools in Harlem or West Virginia and pay to educate the workers they need instead of being allowed to import future Democrats
 

mrdeltoid

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
4,504
Reaction score
1,695
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
And that’s the democrat party’s answer to all crime isn’t it? To take rights away from the law abiding?
 

Patriotic Voter

Get a vaccine, not COVID-19!
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
21,490
Reaction score
6,060
Location
Alachua County, FL
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
I think social media is separate from free speech. I do not think an organization should be forced to host videos of mass shootings and those shooters manifestos.

Social media obviously is separate from all laws because it is made up of for-profit companies that receive no government funding.
 

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
11,091
Reaction score
5,416
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
That large scale immigration hurts the political cohesion of the body politic. Plus most “skilled” immigration is a scam as well, it’s very common for employers to keep wages down in skilled fields by importing “skilled” workers from India or China and claiming there’s no skilled Americans to do work while at the same time they laid off skilled Americans. Disney did this before 2016, they subcontracted some of their IT to company that imported Indians and forced their American employees to train the new Indians (who should have already been able to do that work and should not have displaced Americans in the first place according to the law) how to do it.

First of all, employers can't "keep wages down". If they could, everyone would be making minimum wage.

Employers shop for the best deal for labor, in the same way that everyone shops for the best deals. Anytime you compare prices or quality you are looking for the most value for the lowest price, and you do that nearly every time you buy something. So let's not denounce employers for doing what everyone else does every single day.

There’s pretty much no upside for Americans except the very wealthy and left wing political activists to immigration, whether skilled or not. If Silicone valley can’t find skilled workers they should open coding schools in Harlem or West Virginia and pay to educate the workers they need instead of being allowed to import future Democrats

Focusing on the text in bold, consider these two scenarios:

1. A boy is born in the US. He is raised properly, does well in school, and becomes a civil engineer. He enters the American job market for the first time at 25 years old.

2. A boy is born in India. He is raised properly, does well in school, and becomes a civil engineer. At 25 years old, he moves to the US and enters the American job market.

Is it your position that scenario 1 benefits the country while 2 does not?
 

Gateman_Wen

Official disruptive influence
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
9,143
Reaction score
8,762
Location
Middle of it all
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
You don't see the potential for abuse? How one side or the other can use things like this to stifle the political views of their opposition?
Can't you see that's exactly what the RWNJ "media" is doing?
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
First of all, employers can't "keep wages down". If they could, everyone would be making minimum wage.
Yes they can. And in fact it happens very frequently. Real wages have shown only marginal improvement since the 1960s whereas executive compensation has increased a lot more. America is becoming a very unequal society in terms of wealth, and this is because tax policy favors wealth of wealthy people over wage earners, while simultaneously immigration allows easy replacement of domestic workers.
Employers shop for the best deal for labor,
Yes, they do. So what?
in the same way that everyone shops for the best deals. Anytime you compare prices or quality you are looking for the most value for the lowest price, and you do that nearly every time you buy something.
Yes, so what?
So let's not denounce employers for doing what everyone else does every single day.
Actually, yes let’s denounce them for not sharing because wealth unequal societies where the rich feel no obligation to Lower orders are low trust and unstable societies.
Focusing on the text in bold, consider these two scenarios:

1. A boy is born in the US. He is raised properly, does well in school, and becomes a civil engineer. He enters the American job market for the first time at 25 years old.

2. A boy is born in India. He is raised properly, does well in school, and becomes a civil engineer. At 25 years old, he moves to the US and enters the American job market.

Is it your position that scenario 1 benefits the country while 2 does not?
Yes, because person two takes a job that an American otherwise would’ve had, in addition them coming to America creates a brain drain in India that makes India poorer thus creating more migrants from India who may not be engineers. In addition you create tension, the socialist city councilwoman in Seattle, Kshama Sawant, was one of these “skilled immigrants” and now she’s holding government office in a country she openly despises and uses it as a platform for class and racial hatred. Did America benefit from her immigrating from India?

When it comes to countries it is perfectly fair to value your own people over a companies bottom line.
 

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
11,091
Reaction score
5,416
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Yes, because person two takes a job that an American otherwise would’ve had, in addition them coming to America creates a brain drain in India that makes India poorer thus creating more migrants from India who may not be engineers.

The two men are identical in every way except where they were born, and you believe that trivial, meaningless characteristic makes one of them valuable and the other harmful?

In addition you create tension, the socialist city councilwoman in Seattle, Kshama Sawant, was one of these “skilled immigrants” and now she’s holding government office in a country she openly despises and uses it as a platform for class and racial hatred. Did America benefit from her immigrating from India?

That moron communist got elected because that's what the idiot white progressives in Seattle want. It has nothing to do with her being an immigrant.

When it comes to countries it is perfectly fair to value your own people over a companies bottom line.

I see nothing fair about preventing companies from hiring who they want, or preventing workers from working for who they want.
 

Nomad4Ever

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
7,405
Reaction score
8,676
Location
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
The two men are identical in every way except where they were born, and you believe that trivial, meaningless characteristic makes one of them valuable and the other harmful?
I see nothing fair about preventing companies from hiring who they want, or preventing workers from working for who they want.
Rare left/right libertarian solidarity moment. I completely agree with both of these statements.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The two men are identical in every way except where they were born, and you believe that trivial, meaningless characteristic makes one of them valuable and the other harmful?
No. They’re not.

That’s a silly proposition. No two people are perfectly identical, and so to justify this idea you now have to rely on fantasy. When you import people from overseas you’re bringing their attitudes and prejudices into your society, you’re creating unnecessary friction between them and groups of people already here (the famously cordial relations between urban blacks and Asians show this concept in practice), you’re bringing their politics, which normally will skew far left by American standards, and you’re increasing resource consumption in America
That moron communist got elected because that's what the idiot white progressives in Seattle want. It has nothing to do with her being an immigrant.
She wouldn’t be here to be elected if she wasn’t allowed to move here to begin with.
I see nothing fair about preventing companies from hiring who they want,
They can hire whoever they want, if they want to hire people in India then they should pick up their company and move it to India and they can enjoy the pristine environment and fair and accessible court system and the functioning rule of law society that country offers. If they want to exist in America than it is more than fair to mandate they hire American workers. There’s a reason these company’s CEOs don’t live in Mumbai however and so if they’re going to live here then it is perfectly fair to demand they play by house rules.
or preventing workers from working for who they want.
There’s asymmetrical power between individual workers and large businesses
 

Nomad4Ever

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
7,405
Reaction score
8,676
Location
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
That’s a silly proposition. No two people are perfectly identical, and so to justify this idea you now have to rely on fantasy. When you import people from overseas you’re bringing their attitudes and prejudices into your society, you’re creating unnecessary friction between them and groups of people already here (the famously cordial relations between urban blacks and Asians show this concept in practice), you’re bringing their politics, which normally will skew far left by American standards, and you’re increasing resource consumption in America
When you "import people from overseas" or what normal people call immigration, you increase the productive capacity of your society. Why do you think China is such a major global power despite have shit GDP per capita? It's because they have like a 1/4 of the world's population. If having fewer people helped an economy then Japan should have triple digit GDP growth with the way their population has been trending.

She wouldn’t be here to be elected if she wasn’t allowed to move here to begin with.
🤡
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Rare left/right libertarian solidarity moment. I completely agree with both of these statements.
Look, the person flying revolutionary flags on their picture agrees with unrestricted foreign immigration. What a shock, I wonder why that is?
 

Nomad4Ever

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
7,405
Reaction score
8,676
Location
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Look, the person flying revolutionary flags on their picture agrees with unrestricted foreign immigration. What a shock, I wonder why that is?
Because I'm a libertarian and believe in the free movement of people and that nation states are the most socially destructive concept human kind has ever conceived of?
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
When you "import people from overseas" or what normal people call immigration, you increase the productive capacity of your society. Why do you think China is such a major global power despite have shit GDP per capita?
Because it was heavily industrialized with western money and assistance. If more people meant more wealth Bangladesh would be wealthier than any European country.

In fact you’re proving my point by mentioning GDP per capita. A flawed measure but still useful to show, actual population doesn’t matter, it matters if you have a functioning society with strong institutions, high trust, and common values which is why Norway is wealthier than Bangladesh.
It's because they have like a 1/4 of the world's population. If having fewer people helped an economy then Japan should have triple digit GDP growth with the way their population has been trending.
Japan nonetheless maintains a first world nation despite having population decline, probably because all the people are not Japanese. Japanese people literally go into shock visiting Paris because Paris is a dirty city filled with lots of underclasses from other countries and Tokyo is a modern clean city filled with Japanese people.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Because I'm a libertarian
No you’re not. You’re claiming to be one now, but you’re not.
and believe in the free movement of people and that nation states are the most socially destructive concept human kind has ever conceived of?
In other words, you believe in a revolutionary ideology that needs to be imposed on everyone else and you view immigration as essential to achieving that goal.
 

Nomad4Ever

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
7,405
Reaction score
8,676
Location
U.S.A.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
In other words, you believe in a revolutionary ideology that needs to be imposed on everyone else and you view immigration as essential to achieving that goal.
Don't mind me, imposing your free to freedom of movement. Please do not resist, or do. I don't stop you from moving wherever you want.
 

EMNofSeattle

No Russian ever called me deplorable
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36,992
Reaction score
11,672
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Don't mind me, imposing your free to freedom of movement. Please do not resist, or do. I don't stop you from moving wherever you want.
No, you’re claiming a freedom to move from the third world to the first. That’s as simple as it is. And once those people are here they need to be catered to by social spending and than given the right to vote.

No one wants to migrate from the US to India, or Nigeria, or wherever, so your phony claim is that you really them to migrate here, because you believe it will help your side politically. Even though the vast majority of the American public wants no such thing
 

KingLeo

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 15, 2021
Messages
1,770
Reaction score
1,729
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There is no denying that what the Buffalo terrorist wrote about, 'replacement theory', is shared by a sizeable section of the far right.
We've heard and read about it from GOP Senators and other politicians, right wing TV and radio entities, and far right celebrities.
 

vegas giants

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
97,183
Reaction score
15,223
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
In much the same way the conservative's actually overtly threatened social media unless they carried content. And government compelled speech is just as offensive to the 1A as censorship. The Texas law targeting social media was an actual violation of the 1A, which is why the courts stayed it immediately. Soon to be struck down.

Point is this kind of "pressure" works both ways and it's fine until efforts like that in Texas in fact attempt to compel or censor speech.
I agree. Conservatives were completely wrong in those situations
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
3,833
Reaction score
1,847
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Freedom of speech has never been absolute. Publishing troop movements during war, posting plans to a nuclear device, speech inciting violence, issuing threats, etc. have a history of being not protected.

It is a valid question to ask whether the racist belief of replacement theory hits under those not protected examples. I do think that legitimate news organizations used to self censor. Now, the attraction of profit making viewers is all that they care about.
It's only illegal for people in the government and for troops/soldiers themselves to publish troop movements. It would not be illegal for me to do so.

Plans for a nuclear device are available at my public library.

Speech inciting violence is protected, unless that speech CALLS FOR the violence. If you say something that pisses somebody off, but it's not a call for violence, then you haven't INCITED violence. The listener is responsible for his own behavior, if you say incendiary things like "Those MAGA supporters over there are attacking our democracy and they want to overthrow the government! They are horrid awful people! They are racists and fascists!" If someone goes off the handle because you say that, that doesn't make it "not free speech." I don't get why so many people don't understand that the reaction of the audience is not the test - you need the speaker to actually be saying something that calls for violence.

Direct threats, you are correct, if they are serious threats of violence. A threat to "take someone out back and whoop 'em" is not, as we saw when Biden threatened Trump like that.

Replacement theory most certainly is free speech. It is not a threat, doesn't call for violence (and even if it causes some asshole to act violently, that doesn't make it an incitement). It's an opinion. And even evil opinions like "we should worship Satan and follow his dictates..." or "Abortion should be legal even for the first year after a baby is born" (advocacy of murder), and "we need a revolution to overthrow the government" -- as well as "we have too many French people in this country and should bar their entry" and even "Asians are superior races of peoples who should be privileged above all others" -- those are free speech. The very idea that people think there is some question about that is remarkable to me.
 

911Sparky

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
3,847
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
If they didn't own the land, then they didn't lose anything to the European colonists.
They did lose the right to roam the land freely. Being put on a reservation would be the modern day equivalent of not being allowed to leave the city you live in.
 
Top Bottom