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New York attorney general probes perplexing Trump Tower Chicago loan deal

sjmay said:
LOL @ Trump remaining under the radar.......damn you guys have to twist yourselves into knots to explain why he's never been prosecuted....ever....
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Yeah, he was pretty low profile. Almost a complete unknown outside of a small group of New York investors, right up until he won the Republican presidential nomination.

/S
 
Metric Mouse said:
Donald Trump, the New York billionaire real estate mogul and reality televison star stayed "under the radar"? Really, that's what your going with?
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Greasing the right palms and doing the right favors for the right politicians for the last 30 years. Are you that aloof to not comprehend that Trump had the right connections to be able to avoid accountability and following the haw? There current criminal investigations in regards to undervaluing his properties for tax purposes, overvaluing for loan purposes and now evidence that he hasn't paid taxes on loans are all for nothing amirite?
 
HenryChinaski said:
Greasing the right palms and doing the right favors for the right politicians for the last 30 years. Are you that aloof to not comprehend that Trump had the right connections to be able to avoid accountability and following the haw? There current criminal investigations in regards to undervaluing his properties for tax purposes, overvaluing for loan purposes and now evidence that he hasn't paid taxes on loans are all for nothing amirite?
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You are 100% right, they are all for nothing, they are the definition of a POLITICAL HIT JOB....but you are ok with that....

Funny, you didn't see any of that noise last year, or the year before....only in an ELECTION YEAR...did it come around.......why is that? Oh yea...because he's been quiet before then....
 
sjmay said:
You are 100% right, they are all for nothing, they are the definition of a POLITICAL HIT JOB....but you are ok with that....

Funny, you didn't see any of that noise last year, or the year before....only in an ELECTION YEAR...did it come around.......why is that? Oh yea...because he's been quiet before then....
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This has not been a quiet issue. This has been something that has been pursued for years.
 
Jezcoe said:
This has not been a quiet issue. This has been something that has been pursued for years.
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Correct, since 2016 when he won the Presidency.............amazing how it was a non-subject for SO MANY YEARS BEFORE THAT......but thanks for making my point, that this is a political hit job, nothing more, nothing less.
 
sjmay said:
Correct, since 2016 when he won the Presidency.............amazing how it was a non-subject for SO MANY YEARS BEFORE THAT......but thanks for making my point, that this is a political hit job, nothing more, nothing less.
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I personally would think that it is beneficial to know the financial dealings of the President of the United States... especially given what we know and the super shady characters that he has been in business with.

The crazy thing to me is that when we found out in the Mueller report that while running to be the President of the United States, Donald Trump signed a letter of intent with a bank that was under sanctions of the government that he was looking to lead. That used to be considered a bad thing in this country and what alone would have ended anyone else's political career right then and there. But as the Presidency has worn on, it has become 100% crystal clear that the President's supporters just don't care.

This push against the President's financials being investigated by the States though... that is curious. I think that those who have objections to this know deep down that the President that has such full throated support has for decades run a financial enterprise that was built on tons of crime. Admitting that those crimes are real would cause a couple of things. One that crime doesn't matter or that support has been thrown behind a criminal and the years of defense was all a lie to help excuse those crimes.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Greasing the right palms and doing the right favors for the right politicians for the last 30 years. Are you that aloof to not comprehend that Trump had the right connections to be able to avoid accountability and following the haw? There current criminal investigations in regards to undervaluing his properties for tax purposes, overvaluing for loan purposes and now evidence that he hasn't paid taxes on loans are all for nothing amirite?
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No one is saying they are all for nothing. But to act like he was some criminal mastermind for 40 years and suddenly forgot how to play 3 D chess the moment he was elected is stupid. Never go full stupid. Donald Trump isn't some mastermind, and to pretend he fooled NY for 30 years and they are only just finding out about him now is ludicrous.
 
Metric Mouse said:
No one is saying they are all for nothing. But to act like he was some criminal mastermind for 40 years and suddenly forgot how to play 3 D chess the moment he was elected is stupid. Never go full stupid. Donald Trump isn't some mastermind, and to pretend he fooled NY for 30 years and they are only just finding out about him now is ludicrous.
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Not only that.....I know I've heard him say, or read him quoted as saying that what they are looking for....is done ALL OVER NY Real estate, ie, pumping up value etc.....because at the end of the day, the value of real estate..is what someone will pay for it.....good luck trying to prove that prices were pumped up.
 
HenryChinaski said:
I don't believe Trump anticipated that winning the presidency would place him under the microscope and hold him accountable.
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He still doesn't believe so. Mr.'I can do whatever I want' President Trump has always viewed encounters with the law as an occupational hazard.
 
Jezcoe said:
I personally would think that it is beneficial to know the financial dealings of the President of the United States... especially given what we know and the super shady characters that he has been in business with.

The crazy thing to me is that when we found out in the Mueller report that while running to be the President of the United States, Donald Trump signed a letter of intent with a bank that was under sanctions of the government that he was looking to lead. That used to be considered a bad thing in this country and what alone would have ended anyone else's political career right then and there. But as the Presidency has worn on, it has become 100% crystal clear that the President's supporters just don't care.

This push against the President's financials being investigated by the States though... that is curious. I think that those who have objections to this know deep down that the President that has such full throated support has for decades run a financial enterprise that was built on tons of crime. Admitting that those crimes are real would cause a couple of things. One that crime doesn't matter or that support has been thrown behind a criminal and the years of defense was all a lie to help excuse those crimes.
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The best thing is that he owes more money than he claims to have. Deutsche Bank is, I believe, owed something like $3 billion, and counting, and Trump reportedly has $2.1 billion stashed. He also has a history of stiffing those he employs; I wonder how much else he owes.
No bank anywhere wants anything to do with him, and for good reason. He's an unapologetic crook.
 
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sjmay said:
Not hard.....a NEW YORK attorney general, is trying to investigate something that happened in ILLINOIS......

You should read up on LEGAL STANDING.
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You should read up on how states tax income. Generally it's by apportionment, so the entity starts with all taxable income in the U.S. then uses factors such as payroll, property and sales, or some combination (sometimes sales only) to apportion that total to each state in which it does business. But if they entity starts with a total income number that's $100 million too low, then the amount apportioned to NY and taxed in NY is understated.

There are exceptions, depending on the state. Sometimes income is specifically allocated to a state. What's incorrect is assuming that if the income is 'earned' in Chicago that NY state doesn't care. That's simply NOT how the state tax system works. You're speaking from ignorance. The NY AG knows better than you do what is relevant to their interests.

The bigger problem is this is, if what's alleged is true, a massive example of federal tax fraud. If you don't care that the President engages in it, that's fine, but most of us won't agree that the tax laws apply to us, but not to POTUS. And fraud has no statute of limitations.
 
Metric Mouse said:
Donald Trump, the New York billionaire real estate mogul and reality televison star stayed "under the radar"? Really, that's what your going with?
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He stayed under the radar of the government. There's a difference between being a reality TV star and having the details of your finances under the microscope. The latter is happening in large part because he's now POTUS.

What looks like happened here is he had a $150 million loan. He paid off roughly $50 million, and the rest was forgiven. On those books, that forgiveness needs an offset, and it's to income. Instead of booking that, and alerting tax authorities, Trump formed another company that then "loaned" him $100 million, so on the hotel's books there's nothing interesting happening except the lender changed, but the entire debt is still on the books. But it's a fraud - the loan is just on paper, isn't real. That actually takes some pretty serious digging to figure out because the hotel's books look fine, and auditors if they examine it have to go to the fake entity and see what's on those books.

Bottom line is if you're willing to engage in tax fraud it can go on for a long time before it's caught, if the company is fairly careful. Here there's nothing on the hotel's books to raise a flag. From year to year, $150 million in debt goes to....$150 million in debt. Why look behind that if you're an auditor or the AG? Now there's a reason, and people have done it, and it's because of his high profile as POTUS.

Same thing happened with Manafort. His fraud was pretty blatant, but there was no 'trigger' to start an audit. Once he put himself in the public eye, in a huge way, and his shenanigans with overseas interests came to light, then there was a reason to look at his taxes and he got busted in a very big way.

For the elites, all this is a feature of our tax system, not a bug. They hide assets overseas and rarely get caught. Even when they do, the system allows them to fess up, pay their taxes and that's all we hear from it, so there's little reason to be honest. If there's a 90% chance of getting away with it, and if caught, just pay your taxes and a fine, why not try?
 
Metric Mouse said:
Yeah, he was pretty low profile. Almost a complete unknown outside of a small group of New York investors, right up until he won the Republican presidential nomination.

/S
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Yeah, how much of the details of his finances were public? What had you read about them before now? Did you know the details of his Chicago hotel? If you did, where did you read about that prior to his becoming a candidate?

/S :confused:
 
sjmay said:
You are 100% right, they are all for nothing, they are the definition of a POLITICAL HIT JOB....but you are ok with that....

Funny, you didn't see any of that noise last year, or the year before....only in an ELECTION YEAR...did it come around.......why is that? Oh yea...because he's been quiet before then....
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What matters is are the allegations of a $100 million tax fraud true, or not. If true, why do you care what prompted people to discover this fraud?

I had an instructor in college who reached the highest non-appointed (i.e. career) position in the IRS. He loved to tell stories about how they used to get tips all the time from disgruntled wives, business partners, competitors. Did they care that the motive for alerting IRS was revenge? Nope! They loved it!
 
sjmay said:
Correct, since 2016 when he won the Presidency.............amazing how it was a non-subject for SO MANY YEARS BEFORE THAT......but thanks for making my point, that this is a political hit job, nothing more, nothing less.
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Are the allegations true?

That's the only thing that matters. You're studiously not arguing that the allegations are false, just that it's NOT FAIR!!! to bring them up, because the motivations are wrong!! BOO HOOOOO!!! :boohoo:
 
Metric Mouse said:
No one is saying they are all for nothing. But to act like he was some criminal mastermind for 40 years and suddenly forgot how to play 3 D chess the moment he was elected is stupid. Never go full stupid. Donald Trump isn't some mastermind, and to pretend he fooled NY for 30 years and they are only just finding out about him now is ludicrous.
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Are the allegations false? If you believe yes, do you have evidence to support that position?
 
sjmay said:
Not only that.....I know I've heard him say, or read him quoted as saying that what they are looking for....is done ALL OVER NY Real estate, ie, pumping up value etc.....because at the end of the day, the value of real estate..is what someone will pay for it.....good luck trying to prove that prices were pumped up.
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The OP is about tax fraud that has nothing to do with real estate values.
 
JasperL said:
You should read up on how states tax income. Generally it's by apportionment, so the entity starts with all taxable income in the U.S. then uses factors such as payroll, property and sales, or some combination (sometimes sales only) to apportion that total to each state in which it does business. But if they entity starts with a total income number that's $100 million too low, then the amount apportioned to NY and taxed in NY is understated.

There are exceptions, depending on the state. Sometimes income is specifically allocated to a state. What's incorrect is assuming that if the income is 'earned' in Chicago that NY state doesn't care. That's simply NOT how the state tax system works. You're speaking from ignorance. The NY AG knows better than you do what is relevant to their interests.

The bigger problem is this is, if what's alleged is true, a massive example of federal tax fraud. If you don't care that the President engages in it, that's fine, but most of us won't agree that the tax laws apply to us, but not to POTUS. And fraud has no statute of limitations.
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Correct, but from what I gathered from the article, the question is how it was funded......which has zero to do with taxable income.
 
sjmay said:
Correct, but from what I gathered from the article, the question is how it was funded......which has zero to do with taxable income.
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That's not true.

Debt forgiveness is taxable income. Think about it this way. I loan you $100,000 in cash, and book a loan on my books. Then the next day I 'forgive' that loan. You've got $100k in cash free and clear. That's income by any definition, and the IRC taxes it as income. It can't be any other way, unless the IRS just wants to allow people to avoid income tax by characterizing a bunch of stuff as a "loan" that is forgiven the next day or the next year.

That's what happened here. He got a $150 million loan. The bank forgave $100 million of it and settled the debt for roughly $50 million. So Trump's hotel got $100 million in cash free and clear, which is income. There are exceptions - namely if the borrower can prove insolvency or is in bankruptcy, but that's something the taxpayer has to prove at that time. The income is reportable in the year the loan is forgiven, and the taxpayer then notifies IRS why it's not taxable - i.e. insolvency or bankruptcy - and puts IRS and state authorities on notice, which allows them to audit that claim of insolvency.

Trump hid the debt forgiveness through a bogus loan to an affiliate. It's tax fraud, black and white.
 
JasperL said:
That's not true.

Debt forgiveness is taxable income. Think about it this way. I loan you $100,000 in cash, and book a loan on my books. Then the next day I 'forgive' that loan. You've got $100k in cash free and clear. That's income by any definition, and the IRC taxes it as income. It can't be any other way, unless the IRS just wants to allow people to avoid income tax by characterizing a bunch of stuff as a "loan" that is forgiven the next day or the next year.

That's what happened here. He got a $150 million loan. The bank forgave $100 million of it and settled the debt for roughly $50 million. So Trump's hotel got $100 million in cash free and clear, which is income. There are exceptions - namely if the borrower can prove insolvency or is in bankruptcy, but that's something the taxpayer has to prove at that time. The income is reportable in the year the loan is forgiven, and the taxpayer then notifies IRS why it's not taxable - i.e. insolvency or bankruptcy - and puts IRS and state authorities on notice, which allows them to audit that claim of insolvency.

Trump hid the debt forgiveness through a bogus loan to an affiliate. It's tax fraud, black and white.
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I read more into it, got caught by the first or second paragraph where it says this started by what Cohen said in February about valuations etc,

As far as the allegations, if it's forgiven, sure, but Trump allegedly bought it back......
 
sjmay said:
I read more into it, got caught by the first or second paragraph where it says this started by what Cohen said in February about valuations etc,

As far as the allegations, if it's forgiven, sure, but Trump allegedly bought it back......
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You're being I assume deliberately ignorant of what's alleged. There is no evidence that affiliate bought back the loan, or that the loan is anything but a sham, a fiction, on paper, with no legal force. The allegation is he set up an entity and all it did was book a loan to the hotel that was unrelated to the actual loan by the bank and the ENTIRE purpose was to avoid showing a $100 million reduction in debt on the books of the hotel that wasn't offset with a cash payment or forgiveness of indebtedness income, to hide that loan forgiveness from state and federal taxing authorities.

Again, think of it in simple terms. You loan me $100,000. Forgive it the next day. To avoid tax on that, I form an LLC owned entirely by me than then "loans" me that same $100,000, but I never pay on the loan, and even if I did, I'm paying myself, because you're the original lender and have no interest in that loan and got nothing for that loan. It's a sham transaction.
 
JasperL said:
You're being I assume deliberately ignorant of what's alleged. There is no evidence that affiliate bought back the loan, or that the loan is anything but a sham, a fiction, on paper, with no legal force. The allegation is he set up an entity and all it did was book a loan to the hotel that was unrelated to the actual loan by the bank and the ENTIRE purpose was to avoid showing a $100 million reduction in debt on the books of the hotel that wasn't offset with a cash payment or forgiveness of indebtedness income, to hide that loan forgiveness from state and federal taxing authorities.

Again, think of it in simple terms. You loan me $100,000. Forgive it the next day. To avoid tax on that, I form an LLC owned entirely by me than then "loans" me that same $100,000, but I never pay on the loan, and even if I did, I'm paying myself, because you're the original lender and have no interest in that loan and got nothing for that loan. It's a sham transaction.
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No, I get what you are saying,

But the defense is that it WAS NOT forgiven, it was bought back....if you are saying that a separate company loaned him the money to buy it back, ok, and? The issue is the original debt from Credit Force and if it was forgiven, or bought back.
 
sjmay said:
No, I get what you are saying,

But the defense is that it WAS NOT forgiven, it was bought back....if you are saying that a separate company loaned him the money to buy it back, ok, and? The issue is the original debt from Credit Force and if it was forgiven, or bought back.
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The evidence shows the original lenders wrote off the $100 million - settled the $150 million in debt for about $50 million in cash. The end.

And of course the defense alleged by Trump is backed by nothing because Trump through his companies refuses to provide any evidence of this supposed buy back of the loan.

Again, just put it in terms of my original scenario. If you loan me 100k and forgive it, then I "buy it back" with an LLC owned entirely by me, but don't pay you anything, and just owe myself that 100k, what has happened? I don't have a debt - it's been forgiven, because the debt to myself is a sham, it's worth nothing, once I'm relieved of the obligation to pay an outside party that money.

More than anything, if this debt is real, the evidence for that is easy to provide. What did the LLC pay to assume that debt? That's easily established. Was it $1 (if anything) or $100 million. That matters immensely and there's no evidence the LLC paid the original lenders ANYTHING, or that there was any legal transfer of the rights to that original "debt" to the LLC. If it's legit, that legal transfer of the right to that money is all in a permanent file in the lawyers' offices that takes 10 minutes to scan and send to authorities. $100 million deals aren't done by handshake, and if the legal right to that debt hasn't been transferred there is no loan.
 
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JasperL said:
The evidence shows the original lenders wrote off the $100 million - settled the $150 million in debt for about $50 million in cash. The end.

And of course the defense alleged by Trump is backed by nothing because Trump through his companies refuses to provide any evidence of this supposed buy back of the loan.
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The EVIDENCE doesn't show anything of that, the EVIDENCE is the lender's say so......I mean, hell if THAT's your evidence...good luck.
 
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