New Sharia

[Juin]

Mohamed preached an Islam that was appropriate for his time.

Is that Islamic doctrine, or your own version of Islam? Islam posits that Mahomet delivered an Islam for all men and all times. All times. If that is no more a cardinal thesis of Islam, let me know

 

[Jredbaron96]

Would that be like when the Taliban laid the foundations of Islam in Afghanistan?

While the Taliban are no strangers of brutality, I wouldn't put them on the same level as the Nazis. The Taliban's ultimate goal is an independent, isolated Afghanistan; they have no need or desire to embark on campaigns of continental conquest.

Or ISIS laid the foundations of Islam in Mesopotamia? Or for Islam we have to shift gears and claim that because there are upright Moslems in the US, Islam must be absolved?

ISIS represents Islam as much as the KKK represents all Baptists.

It is not rocket science. Even if you take the totality of the ss, it is still a small fraction of German society.

The SS was not alone in committing the Holocaust.

And you do engage in quite a stretch. Every German: man, woman, child, babies actively contributed to the holocaust!

That was never even remotely my claim. My point was that the Holocaust was carried out with knowledge of it fairly widespread among the German populace.

You are using the fact that American Moslems are upright citizens to absolve Islam.

Actually I'm pointing out that numerous times during history Islamic Empires did not commit to the actions and crimes you describe as being innate to Islam and the Koran.

 

[noonereal]

New Sharia:

I can't get Biden to do it for me, so maybe from here.

You Taliban, you educate those women.

Moreover, if a man is left alone in a room or house with a woman, he should be guilty of rape.

No clue what this post means. I would ask, WTF do you care about Sharia anything?

 

[noonereal]

Actually I'm pointing out that numerous times during history Islamic Empires did not commit to the actions and crimes you describe as being innate to Islam and the Koran.

Maybe he confused Muslims with the Christians of the Crusades?

 

[Juin]

Jredbaron << While the Taliban are no strangers of brutality, I wouldn't put them on the same level as the Nazis. The Taliban's ultimate goal is an independent, isolated Afghanistan; they have no need or desire to embark on campaigns of continental conquest.<<


I see, Nazism would be just kosher if it was not expansionist! Fantastic


Jredbaron << ISIS represents Islam as much as the KKK represents all Baptists.<<

Ok, so the KKK represents all Baptists; I can live with that. How does that translate to ISIS ideology not being vintage Mahomet? ISIS is straight from Mahomet's playbook. Down to the last iota.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I see, Nazism would be just kosher if it was not expansionist! Fantastic

?

The Nazis are considered reprehensible not just because they were expansionist, but also because they conducted industrial scale genocide.

Ok, so the KKK represents all Baptists; I can live with that.

Except that's not true, lol.

How does that translate to ISIS ideology not being vintage Mahomet?

So nearly every other Caliphate in human history, even the ones founded righter after Mohamed, weren't vintage "Mahomet"?

 

[Juin]

Juin said:
I see, Nazism would be just kosher if it was not expansionist! Fantastic

Jredbaron << The Nazis are considered reprehensible not just because they were expansionist, but also because they conducted industrial scale genocide.<<

The distinction was yours.

Juin said:
Ok, so the KKK represents all Baptists; I can live with that.

Jredbaron << Except that's not true, lol.<<

Yet, it is a very potent debating tool. I have run into it gazillions of times. It can easily disable the inexperienced Christian attacking Islam; it goes like: if you dare touch Islam, I will demonstrate to you that Hitler was a Catholic, and Nazism was the child of Catholicism. I happen to be a Roman Catholic. So, in such a case I simply agree with the claim; yes, Hitler was Catholic, and Nazism was the foster child of Catholicism; that matter having been cleared, I then ask whether we can examine the criminal ideology of Islam, or are we to just leave it alone because Catholicism is vile?

Juin said:
How does that translate to ISIS ideology not being vintage Mahomet?

Jredbaron << So nearly every other Caliphate in human history, even the ones founded righter after Mohamed, weren't vintage "Mahomet"?<<


Not at all. Our good fortune is that only a tiny fraction of Moslems are vintage Mahomet. It is your good fortune that all Moslems you have met do not walk in the footsteps of Mahomet. The limit as a Moslem emulates Mahomet in everything is ISIS. Maybe you beg to differ ?

 

[Jredbaron96]

The distinction was yours.

Yes, a mark the Taliban don't share.

So, in such a case I simply agree with the claim; yes, Hitler was Catholic, and Nazism was the foster child of Catholicism;

It wasn't. Nazism was the end result of more than 150 years of German counter-enlightenment reactionary beliefs. There's very little, if anything, that Catholicism can lay claim to regarding Nazi ideological development.

The limit as a Moslem emulates Mahomet in everything is ISIS. Maybe you beg to differ ?

So, going by your logic, the Umayyad Dynasty was not emulative of Mohammed, because the Umayyads weren't like ISIS?

 

[Manc Skipper]

The red pickup is more reliable?

 

[Juin]

So, going by your logic, the Umayyad Dynasty was not emulative of Mohammed, because the Umayyads weren't like ISIS?

No, they were not. If they were, they would have been ISIS on steroids. The Propositions: Moslems can be quite upright, even as Islam as an ideology is rotten, can both be equally True.

A Moslem, any Moslem, all Moslems assert, as a cardinal belief that it is incumbent upon all Moslems to emulate Mahomet in every detail. Each iota. In that Islam is a little unique from other religions, which usually hold adherants to the preachings of the central figure, and not to emulation of him in every detail.

Problem is Mahomet is a horrible fellow to emulate. Especially in everything. The limit as a Moslem emulates Mahomet to the letter, he approaches ISIS.

 

[ThirdTerm]

The Taliban's predecessors were the Afghan Mujahideen insurgents fighting the Soviet Army. With the CIA's Operation Cyclone to arm and finance them from 1979 to 1989, these Afghan freedom fighters grew too strong for the Soviets. CIA director William Casey secretly visited Pakistan numerous times to meet with the ISI officers managing the mujahideen. The CIA is primarily responsible for strengthening the Islamist movement.

In the late 1980s, Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, concerned about the growing strength of the Islamist movement, told President George H. W. Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein."

Others have asserted funding the mujahideen may have played a role in causing the September 11 attacks. A number of political commentators have described Al-Qaeda attacks as "blowback" or an unintended consequence of American aid to the mujahideen.

 

[Jredbaron96]

No, they were not. If they were, they would have been ISIS on steroids.

So, to recap:

The Caliphate that formed just 30 years after Mohammed died, that directly continued following the Rashidun, who in turn directly followed Mohammed, all of which occurred within 50 years of Mohammed's own life, led by people who had known Mohammed personally...

...were not accurately following Mohammed as a self-proclaimed caliphate founded 1,367 years later.

There's stupid, and then there's your argument.

 

[Exquisitor]

Ahh, is that why mike pence would never be in a room with a woman by himself?

Mike Pence? That's good. Won't get him the Presidency.

 

[Exquisitor]

Is that Islamic doctrine, or your own version of Islam? Islam posits that Mahomet delivered an Islam for all men and all times. All times. If that is no more a cardinal thesis of Islam, let me know

My own version of Islam.

They're not here to argue it, and I don't get very far with the State Department.

 

[Exquisitor]

No clue what this post means. I would ask, WTF do you care about Sharia anything?

I care about what their miniscule minds are going to do to their women, what if you or I end up there.

 

[MaryP]

You can claim "Well the Koran says this and that", just like you can say "The Bible says this and that", but in the end its the actions of their adherents that matter far more than what the books say.

Yes.
It's like insisting that all Christians really use buggies instead of cars because the Amish do. Or at least that all Christians would like to, if they had their way.

There are extreme sects in every religion, I presume. The extremist interpretation of the Koran by terrorists is not widely accepted by the Muslim faith, which is why there is such a difference between what Juin et al say and what we observe in reality.

 

[MaryP]

Jredbaron << While the Taliban are no strangers of brutality, I wouldn't put them on the same level as the Nazis. The Taliban's ultimate goal is an independent, isolated Afghanistan; they have no need or desire to embark on campaigns of continental conquest.<<


I see, Nazism would be just kosher if it was not expansionist! Fantastic


Jredbaron << ISIS represents Islam as much as the KKK represents all Baptists.<<

Ok, so the KKK represents all Baptists; I can live with that. How does that translate to ISIS ideology not being vintage Mahomet? ISIS is straight from Mahomet's playbook. Down to the last iota.

You know what you probably should do? Try talking to an imam with a congregation in your area. A nice long talk, with your ears wide open. Learn what Islam is in 2021 in a secular country.

I don't know if your goal is to outlaw Islam as a religion worldwide, or to continue making a false equivalency to Nazis in order to conclude that since we can't prohibit Islam, we should logically accept Nazi ideology, too. Either way, your argument rots.

 

[stevecanuck]

ISIS represents Islam as much as the KKK represents all Baptists.

That is a gratuitous statement that you can't defend.

It implies enough knowledge of both ISIS and the Qur'an to allow you to give specific examples of ISIS policy that does not comply with the Qur'an's message. Please give us one of those examples.

 

[Jredbaron96]

That is a gratuitous statement that you can't defend.

lol. Try again.

It implies enough knowledge of both ISIS and the Qur'an to allow you to give specific examples of ISIS policy that does not comply with the Qur'an's message. Please give us one of those examples.

Suicide is expressly forbidden in Koran. That has yet to stop a suicide bomber that I am aware of, much like the 5th Commandment did not stop Irish snipers from gunning down British soldiers in the streets of Belfast.

 

[stevecanuck]

lol. Try again.



Suicide is expressly forbidden in Koran. That has yet to stop a suicide bomber that I am aware of, much like the 5th Commandment did not stop Irish snipers from gunning down British soldiers in the streets of Belfast.

Suicide bombers are not "committing suicide" in the goodbye-cruel-world sense. They are dying in battle as they take a bunch of infidels with them. Verse 9:111 tells Muslims that to get into heaven they must "fight in the cause of god. So they kill and are killed". Some Muslims have taken that to include strapping on a vest bomb.

Others don't agree. This is actually a good example of one of the few verses that has some wiggle room (veiling is another). The bottom line is that as Islam evolved jihad became more and more required until "God" finally decided that it was a requirement to get into heaven.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Suicide bombers are not "committing suicide" in the goodbye-cruel-world sense. They are dying in battle as they take a bunch of infidels with them.

I'm sure that's what they tell themselves.

Others don't agree. This is actually a good example of one of the few verses that has some wiggle room (veiling is another). The bottom line is that as Islam evolved jihad became more and more required until "God" finally decided that it was a requirement to get into heaven.

The concept of the necessity of Jihad is a modern invention by the Mujaddid. It certainly was not the case for the majority of Islam's history.

 

[stevecanuck]

I'm sure that's what they tell themselves.

They don't have to "tell themselves" anything. They walk amongst the target population, shout "allahu akbar", and everybody dies.

The concept of the necessity of Jihad is a modern invention by the Mujaddid. It certainly was not the case for the majority of Islam's history.

Nope. It was a concept clearly stated in the qur'an.

9:111 - Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=111

 

[Jredbaron96]

They don't have to "tell themselves" anything.

Sure they do.

The people who become suicide bombers are largely stunted men with little meaning to their lives; hence their willingness to throw it way. They are rarely technically or tactically gifted (which is why suicide bombing attempts often have high "failure" rates).

Nope. It was a concept clearly stated in the qur'an.


9:111 - Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=111

Lol, this is not a call to arms for all Muslims to kill without warning. This verse followed the exposure of the traitors of Tabuk and the builders of Masjid Al-Dirar.

"They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed." is a description of battle between two armies, not of senseless slaughter like a suicide bombing.

 

[stevecanuck]

Sure they do.

The people who become suicide bombers are largely stunted men with little meaning to their lives; hence their willingness to throw it way. They are rarely technically or tactically gifted (which is why suicide bombing attempts often have high "failure" rates).



Lol, this is not a call to arms for all Muslims to kill without warning. This verse followed the exposure of the traitors of Tabuk and the builders of Masjid Al-Dirar.

"They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed." is a description of battle between two armies, not of senseless slaughter like a suicide bombing.

The denial is strong in this one. Enjoy it.

 

[Jredbaron96]

The denial is strong in this one. Enjoy it.

I accept your surrender.