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New Poll For Military

Which Option is Best?

  • Institute a FULL military draft to include ALL segments of society, from rich to poor.

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Completely and totally abolish the military altogether where nobody serves

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Vets of volunteer military who have seen direct combat get more benefits and more political power.

    Votes: 3 33.3%

  • Total voters
    9

Thorgasm

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DING DING DING! We have a winner! This is the stupidest poll ever! If there was a draft, then they would be being exploited. They volunteer, it's not exploitation when you choose to agree to the terms of service. Nobody deserves more political power than another. Imagine what would happen if we let in the people that the miltary rejects because they couldn't pass their easy tests. This would weaken the military.
 

Kandahar

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TimmyBoy said:
Heh heh, you guys are so easy to get riled up. But seriously, just before I went to Bosnia we had all these notions of duty, honor, patriotism but then it all disappeared when we got into country. Reality forced it's way into the picture. Clinton's lies became apparent, but what became even more apparent was that this was not limited to Clinton, that this was the way the system operated, it is based on lies. The good ole USA didn't look quite as good in Bosnia as it did back home just before we left. The reality in Bosnia, was that the US, knowingly, willfully and intentionally acted as accomplices to genocide and rewarded the worst war criminals in Europe since Nazi Germany. It was also apparent, that alot of people who fought and died in Bosnia had these notions of patriotism and duty to country. That too disappeared for them when the death camps sprang up, the massacres started taking place. Killing was like getting high on drugs and it became an addiction for them. Everywhere you turned, you were confronted by lies told by governments, backdoor deals and dark, sinister agreements made. Like I was in Srebrencia where 8,000 people were wiped out in one day, in the worst massace in Europe since World War II. This was not reported in the news, but it seems a secret agreement, a backdoor deal was made to sacrafice Srebrencia in return for saving Sarajevo since the West was not going to come and stop the genocide. People are capable of great evil and also great good. It is like we have this wild beast that lives inside of all of us that is waiting patiently for the right opportunity to come out in the open and show itself.

You are such a dumbass. You clearly have no understanding of what they were even fighting about. Now anyone can be just plain stupid, but if you were actually over there I would think that you'd be bound to pick up at least a basic understanding of the situation just from being exposed to it every day. Bosnians were motivated by patriotism and duty to country? No they weren't, Yugoslavia is the most fragmented place in Europe. And how exactly did the US act as accomplices to Bosnian war crimes? We didn't have to be over there at all.
 

SKILMATIC

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You just missed thw hole point. I said the reason why they were fighting was becasue of religious tensions.

I NEVER SAID WE WERE THERE FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS. And again it wasnt our conflict it was the Yugoslavians conflict. Here let me write you a history report on what happened cause I think you were too busy there to really know what was going on. O btw it is "partitioning." Just to let you know.

In the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, conflict between the three main ethnic groups, the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, resulted in genocide committed by the Serbs against the Muslims in Bosnia.

Bosnia is one of several small countries that emerged from the break-up of Yugoslavia, a multicultural country created after World War I by the victorious Western Allies(you can thank that to the good ole US). Yugoslavia was composed of ethnic and religious groups that had been historical rivals, even bitter enemies, including the Serbs (Orthodox Christians), Croats (Catholics) and ethnic Albanians (Muslims)(haa! I looked them up).

During World War II, Yugoslavia was invaded by Nazi Germany and was partitioned. A fierce resistance movement sprang up led by Josip Tito. Following Germany's defeat, Tito reunified Yugoslavia under the slogan "Brotherhood and Unity," merging together Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, along with two self-governing provinces, Kosovo and Vojvodina.

Tito, a Communist, was a strong leader who maintained ties with the Soviet Union and the United States during the Cold War, playing one superpower against the other while obtaining financial assistance and other aid from both. After his death in 1980 and without his strong leadership, Yugoslavia quickly plunged into political and economic chaos.

A new leader arose by the late 1980s, a Serbian named Slobodan Milosevic, a former Communist who had turned to nationalism and religious hatred to gain power. He began by inflaming long-standing tensions between Serbs and Muslims in the independent provence of Kosovo. Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo were in the minority and claimed they were being mistreated by the Albanian Muslim majority. Serbian-backed political unrest in Kosovo eventually led to its loss of independence and domination by Milosevic.

In June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia both declared their independence from Yugoslavia soon resulting in civil war. The national army of Yugoslavia, now made up of Serbs controlled by Milosevic, stormed into Slovenia but failed to subdue the separatists there and withdrew after only ten days of fighting.

Milosevic quickly lost interest in Slovenia, a country with almost no Serbs. Instead, he turned his attention to Croatia, a Catholic country where Orthodox Serbs made up 12 percent of the population.

During World War II, Croatia had been a pro-Nazi state led by Ante Pavelic and his fascist Ustasha Party. Serbs living in Croatia as well as Jews had been the targets of widespread Ustasha massacres. In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, they had been slaughtered by the tens of thousands.

In 1991, the new Croat government, led by Franjo Tudjman, seemed to be reviving fascism, even using the old Ustasha flag, and also enacted discriminatory laws targeting Orthodox Serbs.

Aided by Serbian guerrillas in Croatia, Milosevic's forces invaded in July 1991 to 'protect' the Serbian minority. In the city of Vukovar, they bombarded the outgunned Croats for 86 consecutive days and reduced it to rubble. After Vukovar fell, the Serbs began the first mass executions of the conflict, killing hundreds of Croat men and burying them in mass graves.

The response of the international community was limited(again remember what I told you). The U.S. under President George Bush chose not to get involved militarily, but instead recognized the independence of both Slovenia and Croatia. An arms embargo was imposed for all of the former Yugoslavia by the United Nations. However, the Serbs under Milosevic were already the best armed force and thus maintained a big military advantage.

By the end of 1991, a U.S.-sponsored cease-fire agreement was brokered between the Serbs and Croats fighting in Croatia. (see we tried something)

In April 1992, the U.S. and European Community chose to recognize the independence of Bosnia, a mostly Muslim country where the Serb minority made up 32 percent of the population. Milosevic responded to Bosnia's declaration of independence by attacking Sarajevo(now heres where you come in), its capital city, best known for hosting the 1984 Winter Olympics. Sarajevo soon became known as the city where Serb snipers continually shot down helpless civilians in the streets, including eventually over 3,500 children.

Bosnian Muslims were hopelessly outgunned. As the Serbs gained ground, they began to systematically roundup local Muslims in scenes eerily similar to those that had occurred under the Nazis during World War II, including mass shootings, forced repopulation of entire towns, and confinement in make-shift concentration camps for men and boys. The Serbs also terrorized Muslim families into fleeing their villages by using rape as a weapon against women and girls.

The actions of the Serbs were labeled as 'ethnic cleansing,' a name which quickly took hold among the international media.

Despite media reports of the secret camps, the mass killings, as well as the destruction of Muslim mosques and historic architecture in Bosnia, the world community remained mostly indifferent. The U.N. responded by imposing economic sanctions on Serbia and also deployed its troops to protect the distribution of food and medicine to dispossessed Muslims. But the U.N. (again remember what I told you about the UN)strictly prohibited its troops from interfering militarily against the Serbs. Thus they remained steadfastly neutral no matter how bad the situation became.

Throughout 1993, confident that the U.N., United States and the European Community would not take militarily action, Serbs in Bosnia freely committed genocide against Muslims. Bosnian Serbs operated under the local leadership of Radovan Karadzic, president of the illegitimate Bosnian Serb Republic. Karadzic had once told a group of journalists, "Serbs and Muslims are like cats and dogs. They cannot live together in peace. It is impossible."

When Karadzic was confronted by reporters about ongoing atrocities, he bluntly denied involvement of his soldiers or special police units.

On February 6, 1994, the world's attention turned completely to Bosnia as a marketplace in Sarajevo(oohh here you are again) was struck by a Serb mortar shell killing 68 persons and wounding nearly 200. Sights and sounds of the bloody carnage were broadcast globally by the international news media and soon resulted in calls for military intervention against the Serbs.

The U.S. under its new President, Bill Clinton, who had promised during his election campaign in 1992 to stop the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, now issued an ultimatum through the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) demanding that the Serbs withdraw their artillery from Sarajevo. The Serbs quickly complied and a NATO-imposed cease-fire in Sarajevo was declared. (awwee how nice of Bill)

The U.S. then launched diplomatic efforts aimed at unifying Bosnian Muslims and the Croats against the Serbs. However, this new Muslim-Croat alliance failed to stop the Serbs from attacking Muslim towns in Bosnia which had been declared Safe Havens by the U.N. A total of six Muslim towns had been established as Safe Havens in May 1993 under the supervision of U.N. peacekeepers.

Bosnian Serbs not only attacked the Safe Havens but also attacked the U.N. peacekeepers as well. NATO forces responded by launching limited air strikes against Serb ground positions. The Serbs retaliated by taking hundreds of U.N. peacekeepers as hostages and turning them into human shields, chained to military targets such as ammo supply dumps.

At this point, some of the worst genocidal activities of the four-year-old conflict occurred. In Srebrenica, a Safe Haven, U.N. peacekeepers stood by helplessly as the Serbs under the command of General Ratko Mladic systematically selected and then slaughtered nearly 8,000 men and boys between the ages of twelve and sixty - the worst mass murder in Europe since World War II. In addition, the Serbs continued to engage in mass rapes of Muslim females.

On August 30, 1995, effective military intervention finally began as the U.S. led a massive NATO bombing campaign in response to the killings at Srebrenica, targeting Serbian artillery positions throughout Bosnia. The bombardment continued into October. Serb forces also lost ground to Bosnian Muslims who had received arms shipments from the Islamic world. As a result, half of Bosnia was eventually retaken by Muslim-Croat troops.

Faced with the heavy NATO bombardment and a string of ground losses to the Muslim-Croat alliance, Serb leader Milosevic was now ready to talk peace. On November 1, 1995, leaders of the warring factions including Milosevic and Tudjman traveled to the U.S. for peace talks at Wright-Patterson Air Force base in Ohio.

After three weeks of negotiations, a peace accord was declared. Terms of the agreement included partitioning Bosnia into two main portions known as the Bosnian Serb Republic and the Muslim-Croat Federation. The agreement also called for democratic elections and stipulated that war criminals would be handed over for prosecution. 60,000 NATO soldiers were deployed to preserve the cease-fire.

Now, where in that piece of history lesson that I so kindly presented to you were the so called American attrocity makers you so profoundly speak of?
 

SKILMATIC

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Also since timmy boy has a vauge understanding of what the Dayton Peace agreement entailed I posted a link for you to refreshen your bomb blasted memory. Also just in case you didnt know it was drawn up here in the US on a AFB.

http://www.1.umn.edu/humanrts/icty/dayton/daytonsum.html


Mabe after you learn what really went on you can now have a intelligent conversation.
 

TimmyBoy

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For one thing, American leaders are not going to always write everything in official documents of what they are really doing. The truth sometimes is never discovered or known to the public. But you can be rest assured, that Clinton was acting as an accomplice to genocide in Bosnia, he was rewarding the criminals who partook in genocide. This sort of thing was going on for 3 years underneath the noses of spy planes and sattellites. The Dayton Peace Accords were extremely unfair and the only reason Izetbegovic signed it was because he didn't want to have continued warfare, heck, just about all the Bosnian Muslim military aged male population was wiped out. When I was on patrol, it was rare to find a military aged male. It was rather creepy and weird. Alija Izetbegovic, who is now dead, also wrote an autobiography before he passed away. His autobiography is entitled "Inescapable Questions." Izetbegovic is a real leader, somebody who has earned my respect and trust. He is also a Muslim. He refused to eat well with American/European diplomats while his people were under constant seige and bombardment during negotiations.

Despite the fact that Bosnia was a war torn nation and completely turned upside down while I was their, I really enjoyed the people. Their was a sense of belonging to one another, community, friendship that doesn't seem to exist so much here in the US. When you go to some very poor countries, you can find alot of riches that do not exist here in America. The most wealthiest riches are not money or material things.
 

Donkey1499

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TimmyBoy said:
For one thing, American leaders are not going to always write everything in official documents of what they are really doing. The truth sometimes is never discovered or known to the public. But you can be rest assured, that Clinton was acting as an accomplice to genocide in Bosnia, he was rewarding the criminals who partook in genocide. This sort of thing was going on for 3 years underneath the noses of spy planes and sattellites. The Dayton Peace Accords were extremely unfair and the only reason Izetbegovic signed it was because he didn't want to have continued warfare, heck, just about all the Bosnian Muslim military aged male population was wiped out. When I was on patrol, it was rare to find a military aged male. It was rather creepy and weird. Alija Izetbegovic, who is now dead, also wrote an autobiography before he passed away. His autobiography is entitled "Inescapable Questions." Izetbegovic is a real leader, somebody who has earned my respect and trust. He is also a Muslim. He refused to eat well with American/European diplomats while his people were under constant seige and bombardment during negotiations.

Despite the fact that Bosnia was a war torn nation and completely turned upside down while I was their, I really enjoyed the people. Their was a sense of belonging to one another, community, friendship that doesn't seem to exist so much here in the US. When you go to some very poor countries, you can find alot of riches that do not exist here in America. The most wealthiest riches are not money or material things.

So, Americans are just greedy A-holes? They care nothing for anyone else? Then I guess all that money that American civilians sent to the Tsunami victims just came from no where.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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TimmyBoy said:
Despite the fact that Bosnia was a war torn nation and completely turned upside down while I was their, I really enjoyed the people. Their was a sense of belonging to one another, community, friendship that doesn't seem to exist so much here in the US. When you go to some very poor countries, you can find alot of riches that do not exist here in America. The most wealthiest riches are not money or material things.

Yeah, New York City was totally isolated from the rest of the nation on September 12, 2001. No one cared a whit. The New Yorkers themselves walked over the bodies of the dead the next day on their way to Starbucks.:roll:
 

SKILMATIC

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TimmyBoy said:
For one thing, American leaders are not going to always write everything in official documents of what they are really doing. The truth sometimes is never discovered or known to the public. But you can be rest assured, that Clinton was acting as an accomplice to genocide in Bosnia, he was rewarding the criminals who partook in genocide. This sort of thing was going on for 3 years underneath the noses of spy planes and sattellites. The Dayton Peace Accords were extremely unfair and the only reason Izetbegovic signed it was because he didn't want to have continued warfare, heck, just about all the Bosnian Muslim military aged male population was wiped out. When I was on patrol, it was rare to find a military aged male. It was rather creepy and weird. Alija Izetbegovic, who is now dead, also wrote an autobiography before he passed away. His autobiography is entitled "Inescapable Questions." Izetbegovic is a real leader, somebody who has earned my respect and trust. He is also a Muslim. He refused to eat well with American/European diplomats while his people were under constant seige and bombardment during negotiations.

Despite the fact that Bosnia was a war torn nation and completely turned upside down while I was their, I really enjoyed the people. Their was a sense of belonging to one another, community, friendship that doesn't seem to exist so much here in the US. When you go to some very poor countries, you can find alot of riches that do not exist here in America. The most wealthiest riches are not money or material things.

Didnt you just read a godam word I just said? I think this is your problem as you have been consistently eluding throughout this pitiful conversation. Your problem is you dont want to look at facts. I have basically spoon fed you the whole history of the yugoslavia area since WW1. Now whether you chose to beleivee difinitive facts about this worlds history is up to you, but if you dont then keep your idiocy mental disorder to yourself and not pallute this forum with it. I will be the first to admit I have never served in the Yugoslavia area, but I do know I know more than you do about this which is very sad.

Just look at this from a common sense perspective. If you were the president of the US. And reelection was coming up. I think Clinton isnt that stupid to befriend a genocidal tyrant and give him a box of cookies. If you seriously think that then you are seriously a mental case. Thats like Bush after 9/11 having lunch with Osama Bin laden at the white house talking about how the US could aid Osamas efforts. :screwy :doh
 
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