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New Hampshire, the "Free State?"

DadaOrwell

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OK..unscientific poll:

Who here has and has not heard of the Free State Project, that pro-gun anti-tax movement trying to
lure hardcore liberty activists into New Hampshire? What do you know about
it? What do you think about it? Are you planning to move here for "liberty in your lifetime?"
Do you have any objections if I post occasional update here regarding
the fury of action this unusual scheme has generated inside the "Free State?"

Latest events in our legislature have included an affirmation of gun freedom in schools, the passage of a homeschooling deregulation bill in the house and a chamber full of "mocking laughter" when a bill came up that would have allowed traffic cams. It died by a 30% margin.

Not all the news is good of course. We have liberals and authoritarians here too.

The FSP site is www.FreeStateProject.org
 
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Schweddy

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Welcome to Debate Politics! :2wave:

I have read the Free State Project and it sounds very interesting.
My biggest object of course - it's not Texas. :)

Do you have any objections if I post occasional update here regarding
the fury of action this unusual scheme has generated inside the "Free State?"
Not at all, hopefully it will spur thought provoking discussion and debate. We also would like to ask that you be an active poster in other topics of your interest as well.

Tell us more about why your interested in the project. The site does stand on it's own merit, but we are interested in your personal opinion.

Is the seclusion enough to benefit the children and bring back the core values of the US?
 

DadaOrwell

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Thanks for the warm welcome vauge.

In answer to your questions, moving folks to Texas was in fact the original brainstorm when columnist/Limbaugh substitute Walter Williams proposed the idea in '01. I actually was one of the folks who was listening that day when he suggested the solution to our woes would be to get lots of folks to move to TX, earn places in its government and use that power to roll back government. But when folks actually picked up the idea and started running with it they realized it would be impractical to get enough people to move to influence a big state. In fact the only likelihood for success lay in states under 1.5 million population. 10 of these were presented to the group's membership for debate and a vote; the winner was New Hampshire.

Originally I wanted Wyoming to be the chosen state, but now moved here from Texas I think New Hampshire was a better choice.

Personally I was mostly interested in the idea because I was angry about government having too much power at all levels, felt powerless w here I was and wanted to fight back. I haven't been that much of a victim except for all the taxation....I"m just angry about it on principal and wanted some political payback. Moving here gave me a chance to do that , not alone or unsupported but with a social network of friends and supporters who can back me up, just as I back them up. I thought it would take a long time to have an impact, but you would not believe how many things happen here that are so narrowly won and lost...a single individual can swing the balance between victory and defeat on many things. I think I may have swung as many as two close votes in favor of liberty, one by holding a sign and writing some letters-to-editor...another by testifying at the state house. And others in this movement are a lot more effective than I am.

Even if I weren't enjoying the fight and just wanted to be left alone, NH offers that live free or die mentality already. IN terms of seclusion yes there's plenty of that if you want it, nothing like Montana but just looking at a national map don't realize how much uninhabited space there is here and how "hidden" everything feels because of the trees.

But the best part is just listening to educrats and democrats (plus some RINOs) screaming bloody murder that their once-unquestioned programs are now coming under attack and sometimes defeated. We can only do small things for now, with only about 150 of us having moved. But it's a start.
 

Cinnamon

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Would the "Free State" allow parents or a parent to have and raise their children in any manner they see fit? Would it get the government out of the delivery room, nursery, and playground as well as out of the bedroom and out of the schools? Could a parent raise a child as a barefoot child of nature in the company of wolves or dolphins or whatever?
 

ludahai

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I am a native of "the Granite State" and had heard a little about this project from my mother who still lives there. From reading their website (thanks for the link), it sounds like an interesting project.

They chose the right state. There is strong local support for many of the goals expressed. New Hampshire has a very libertarian strain in their traditional conservative politics. However, more people from Massachusetts have been moving to NH in recent years because of what their liberal politics have done to that state. Unfortunately, many of them are bringing those very same politics to New Hampshire. There is, consequently, a growing disparity in the political philosophy of Rockingham County and the lower Merrimack Valley and most of the rest of the state.

I with them well and I hope they can enact some positive change.
 

Squawker

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However, more people from Massachusetts have been moving to NH in recent years because of what their liberal politics have done to that state. Unfortunately, many of them are bringing those very same politics to New Hampshire.
That's a shame. They did the same thing to Maine, now Maine has higher taxes than Mass. Our property taxes are so high, all the Maine people had to sell their prime oceanfront and lake side properties to the rich liberals. That is why I always laugh when folks say Republicans are the party of the rich. Look at where the liberals in the country are. They had a good laugh at us poor folk, and bought the State right out from under us. I am waiting for the monster forest fire that will destroy everything they stole for pennies on the dollar. What goes around, comes around.
 

Cinnamon

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ludahai said:
I am a native of "the Granite State" and had heard a little about this project from my mother who still lives there. From reading their website (thanks for the link), it sounds like an interesting project.

They chose the right state. There is strong local support for many of the goals expressed. New Hampshire has a very libertarian strain in their traditional conservative politics. However, more people from Massachusetts have been moving to NH in recent years because of what their liberal politics have done to that state. Unfortunately, many of them are bringing those very same politics to New Hampshire. There is, consequently, a growing disparity in the political philosophy of Rockingham County and the lower Merrimack Valley and most of the rest of the state.

I with them well and I hope they can enact some positive change.
From what you and Squawker testify to, the southern or coastal portions seem to be going fast to the liberals. Is there a portion of New Hampshire that could be a "safe harbor" for a few more decades. Some on the Free State Project forum propose the northernmost portion of the northernmost county as that place.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9754.0
What do you think?
 

DadaOrwell

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<<Would the "Free State" allow parents or a parent to have and raise their children in any manner they see fit? >>

It would if I were in charge, but I"m not. Given time and enough determined people, we could make this happen here. And I think this is the only civilized place it could happen.

I do want to stress although there is a long way to go for full freedom even here, certain things are already in place that don't exist elsehwere, primarily the social situation where you are almost surrounded by semi-organized and active freedom lovers. It's *fun*

Plus of course the good gun laws and the lack of sales/income taxes, accessible government, etc.
 

DadaOrwell

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The Union Leader did an investigation last year regarding whether Mass. immigrants were liberals. In fact they determined that the majority of Mass escapees voted for George Bush this time and did so in significantly higher numbers than those who already lived here.

I think the thing that has pulled NH leftward over the last 10 years is actually public schooling, not immigration. The govschools are seriously evil almost everywhere and it's no exception here. We are ranked way below average in terms of public school funding thank God...34th in the nation i think.
 

Cinnamon

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DadaOrwell said:
The Union Leader did an investigation last year regarding whether Mass. immigrants were liberals. In fact they determined that the majority of Mass escapees voted for George Bush this time and did so in significantly higher numbers than those who already lived here.
If that is true, then why did New Hampshire vote for Kerry in 2004 whereas it voted for Bush in 2000? Methinks the Union Leader is understating the slide to the Left in order to keep the Right and the Liberty-minded folk ignorant of the real threat until it is too late.
I do want to stress although there is a long way to go for full freedom even here, certain things are already in place that don't exist elsewhere, primarily the social situation where you are almost surrounded by semi-organized and active freedom lovers. It's *fun*
Certainly it would be fun to be surrounded by semi-organized and active freedom lovers. Nevertheless, once you look outside your cloistered circles, you are vastly outnumbered across that state. You need to have your active freedom lovers in all the seats around government board tables as well as around restaurant tables. The slide to the left may be too much for a few hundred average libertarian activists to stop. What are you doing to make sure that all 20,000 will be activist enough to stop that slide? That was the deal, right? That all 20,000 would be activists who would do their utmost? How is the recruiting going? Surely there are hundreds of thousands who would join if they were assured that they would eventually be a majority that wins elections.
 

Pacridge

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Cinnamon said:
If that is true, then why did New Hampshire vote for Kerry in 2004 whereas it voted for Bush in 2000? Methinks the Union Leader is understating the slide to the Left in order to keep the Right and the Liberty-minded folk ignorant of the real threat until it is too late.
Certainly it would be fun to be surrounded by semi-organized and active freedom lovers. Nevertheless, once you look outside your cloistered circles, you are vastly outnumbered across that state. You need to have your active freedom lovers in all the seats around government board tables as well as around restaurant tables. The slide to the left may be too much for a few hundred average libertarian activists to stop. What are you doing to make sure that all 20,000 will be activist enough to stop that slide? That was the deal, right? That all 20,000 would be activists who would do their utmost? How is the recruiting going? Surely there are hundreds of thousands who would join if they were assured that they would eventually be a majority that wins elections.
Welcome to Debate Politics!
 

DadaOrwell

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Cinnamon wrote:

<<Certainly it would be fun to be surrounded by semi-organized and active freedom lovers.>>

How many places are there in the world where this is the case?

<< Nevertheless, once you look outside your cloistered circles, you are vastly outnumbered across that state. >>

There is no state or country where libertarian types are even close to a majority, but at least here they are a vocal minority. Wyoming and Alaska are rivals for the title "freest state," but each of them have anti-liberty problems that seem to slightly outweigh the ones we have in N.H.

Fortunately a majority is not required in order to prevail, not even a large minority. There are only thought to be 2 to 4 thousand Republican and democrat activists in the state; and probably half of the republicans are already libertarian leaning and sympathetic to the Free State movement. How can they not be when we keep showing up at their headquarters volunteering for selected republican campaigns?

For this reason, it's thought that we may need only 2,000 migrants rather than 20K...if they are all fairly active. Jason Soren's original calculations were probably too pessimistic in terms of "numbers needed." but on the other hand his recruitment expectations were overoptimistic. so it is turning into a real nailbiter, just like most election in this state.

<<What are you doing to make sure that all 20,000 will be activist enough to stop that slide? >>

Just setting an example by being active ourselves. The next migrant wave will either follow our example or fail to. If the estimated 150 who have moved so far are any indication, the rest will be incredibly active. Just watch the "combat chatter" over at NHfree.com to see all the countless things this small "pioneer" group has already accomplished and continues to do. They are a force totally out of proportion to their numbers. They're able to be so effective because a lot of local residents like what they're doing and show up at their events, traffic their message boards and what not.

As for your question about recruitment, nationwide recruitment is going badly, when compared to goals. 6,500 have signed up to move, but that number is growing very slowly as the FSP has become old news. I suspect we will end up with just a fraction of the 20,000 they were originally looking for, but a fraction of 10% (2,000) will be enough.

I suspect we'll prevail, but it's no foregone conclusion.
 
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