New Genetic Data Connects COVID Origins to Raccoon Dogs at Wuhan Market

[mike2810]

From the article:

"The findings, however, do not definitively prove that raccoon dogs carried the virus or it passed from them into humans and it also does not rule out the possibility of other animals at the wet market having the virus."

Translation: At this point, no intermediate host animal has been determined to transmit the virus to humans.

At this point the lab leak is a theory just like it came from animals.

One could ask, who is patient zero? So far none has been identified or at least made known to the public.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Exactly, this thread is very misleading.

No it isn't. The thread title is perfectly accurate.

 

[HenryChinaski]

You assume i have not.

Just because something has never happened before, doesn't mean it's never going to happen.

Throughout human history, pandemics have began with the interaction between humans and animals. Sadly life isn't as exciting as the movie Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman. Reality is a tad more mundane.

 

[roguenuke]

Here's how I see this.

The problem with claiming the "lab leak" is not that it isn't possible that this happened. It is and has always been a possibility. The problem is that by lab leak, most people aren't just saying an unintentional leak of a natural (most likely) variant of the virus. Rather, the claim is that this was designed, which there is little to no evidence of.

Lab leak is possible, yes. But another problem with this is that it is possible it happened days before as the first we found, or months, years before we had COVID19 show up even there, as a different strain of coronavirus entirely, moving through animal populations rather than the humans, and then, after having become that first strain (Alpha?), infected humans becoming the COVID19 pandemic.

Or it could have been spreading through any of these different animals, as a common coronavirus changes, spreads, and then became that 1st variant to go to humans and cause the pandemic.

While the lab leak of a natural variant/strain of coronavirus would be bad, it would be only because it would show that at least at one point they didn't have perfect control over their viruses, that they weren't taking necessary precautions to ensure it didn't get out. If any health officials did know that was the cause, 100% certain, that too would be an issue. But you'd need evidence of that knowledge, not simply suspected or possibility.

Given how many scientists are saying that it was most likely a natural variant from the animal population that made it to humans, being able to say with 100% certainty it came from the lab, particularly for a US scientist, would be extremely difficult. Proving they knew, even moreso.

 

[Cope]

LOL So Americans (including you) buy their goods every single day but think they are their #1 enemy? It would be funny if it was not so sad. Our enemies are all dictatorships since they want to destroy democracy. Right now our worst enemy is Russia who is waging a war on a democracy as we speak. Defeating that enemy will go a long way to weakening China's threat to Taiwan. Meanwhile China's economy depends on trade with democracies and that gives us far more ways to control Xi's worst instincts than Putin's.

As I said, it depends on how you define 'enemy'.

I certainly don't think of the Chinese people as my enemy but if you define them as a competitor in the world economic arena, they certainly are.
Their government also would qualify for many definitions of enemy.
If you don't understand the nuance, then maybe bow out?

 

[Cope]

The bold makes sense. The banks are irrelevant, and knowing whether lab or market isn't going to cause chaos.

I wasn't tieing banks to Covid.

Simply showing places where the government could lie to us for what they see as a good reason.

Who are you referring to? I'm talking about the intelligence agencies, the government.

I am too, as well as Dr Fauci.

I didn't mean transparency is a fallacy. Bad wording on my part. Your issue with transparency is a fallacy.

The fact that I want transparency and we rarely get it is certainly no fallacy. There are likely 100's of different things where we have uncovered lies from the government. It is well past CT at this point, it is a valid concern.

You can't assume someone (or an agency) is lying without motive. The only people who lie for no reason are pathological. This is the fallacy. You may be right, but I have no reason to assume the government isn't being as transparent as it can.

I can if I have been told time and again trust me, only to be lied to (this is the government)

Attempting to mitigate any potential anti-Asian sentiment makes sense. Kind of. I'm not sure how many people care about this. I certainly don't.

The rest seems conspiratorial.

Just things I could see off the top of my head for WHY they may lie.

 

[VanceMack]

The coronavirus has infected New York City's rats. Why that's bad news for people

Rats living in New York City's sewer system can catch the virus that causes COVID-19. Could they incubate new variants and spread them to people?

www.latimes.com

Chicken and egg time.

 

[samiam5211]

Throughout human history, pandemics have began with the interaction between humans and animals. Sadly life isn't as exciting as the movie Outbreak with Dustin Hoffman. Reality is a tad more mundane.

Yea, so?

Are you trying to suggest that a lab leak is not possible?

 

[jnug]

So here is what I don't get about the entire wet market v lab discussion.

They are both in CCCCCCHHHHHina (Trumpanzee dialect). So whichever it was, China either has a wet market problem or a lab leak problem.

At its peak there appears to have been 44,000 live wildlife wet markets in China. While many closed they are opening again. I have no idea why the Wuhan lab is receiving more attention than China's wet markets. Could it be that the wild eyed Right does not see the possibility of finding Dr Fauci behind a basket of lettuce in one of those wet markets making the lab a more enticing political target?

Inquiring minds want to know Righties.

 

[iguanaman]

As I said, it depends on how you define 'enemy'.

I certainly don't think of the Chinese people as my enemy but if you define them as a competitor in the world economic arena, they certainly are.
Their government also would qualify for many definitions of enemy.
If you don't understand the nuance, then maybe bow out?

China is a valuable and important trading partner who is also our biggest enemy? Do you not see something wrong about that statement? They are also a competitor and a dictatorship aligned with Russia too. Doesn't who they choose as an ally more threatening than anything? Isn't weakening their ally a good way to weaken China's threats?

 

[HenryChinaski]

Yea, so?

Are you trying to suggest that a lab leak is not possible?

Possible though unlikely. People are clinging to the lab leak because it makes for more interesting discussion. A "secret nefarious foreign lab conducting all sorts of sinister research" is more sensationalistic than a "less than sanitary and overcrowded food market".

 

[samiam5211]

So here is what I don't get about the entire wet market v lab discussion.

They are both in CCCCCCHHHHHina (Trumpanzee dialect). So whichever it was, China either has a wet market problem or a lab leak problem.

At its peak there appears to have been 44,000 live wildlife wet markets in China. While many closed they are opening again. I have no idea why the Wuhan lab is receiving more attention than China's wet markets. Could it be that the wild eyed Right does not see the possibility of finding Dr Fauci behind a basket of lettuce in one of those wet markets making the lab a more enticing political target?

Inquiring minds want to know Righties.

I'm to the left of Fidel Castro, so i don't know if I'm your target audience.

I don't really think it matters where it came from.

I also think that Dr. Fauci is a hero and we should build little statues of him all over the country.

 

[samiam5211]

Possible though unlikely. People are clinging to the lab leak because it makes for more interesting discussion. A "secret nefarious foreign lab conducting all sorts of sinister research" is more sensationalistic than a "less than sanitary and overcrowded food market".

I do not think gain of function research is nefarious at all. It's not even more interesting to me if it came from a lab, i think that is more boring and less scary than the wet market being the source.

 

[jnug]

Possible though unlikely. People are clinging to the lab leak because it makes for more interesting discussion. A "secret nefarious foreign lab conducting all sorts of sinister research" is more sensationalistic than a "less than sanitary and overcrowded food market".

Add to that "Supported by Dr Fauci" and you have a ready made Rightie CT rage-fest. Bring on Tucker to be the ringmaster of another Rightie rage-fest three ring circus.

 

[mrjurrs]

Genetic Data Links Covid Origins To Raccoon Dogs Sold At Wuhan Wet Market, Reports Say

This finding is the first piece of genetic evidence linking an animal being sold at the wet market to the coronavirus that caused the pandemic.

www.forbes.com

People need to stop pretending the answer to this question has been determined or was ever obvious.

Not exactly sure how something that has led to the creation of every known virus could be more obvious. A lab leak is the way outlier possibility. Virus have been here forever and will long outlive humans on this planet.
"Nearly one-tenth of the human genome contains snippets of viral DNA left over from ancient infections. These DNA fragments, called endogenous retroviruses (ERVs), have been passed along and modified over millions of years of evolution. "

Ancient viral DNA may help humans fight infections

Researchers found that stretches of viral DNA long embedded in the human genome can produce proteins that help block infection by viruses.

www.nih.gov

 

[iguanaman]

Possible though unlikely. People are clinging to the lab leak because it makes for more interesting discussion. A "secret nefarious foreign lab conducting all sorts of sinister research" is more sensationalistic than a "less than sanitary and overcrowded food market".

Be honest. They are clinging to the lab leak because Trump said it was the cause and there is really no other reason. They are desperate for any shred of Trump's long list of crazy conspiracy theories to be true. It is vindication for some strange reason. They do not understand the real message covid has sent us. That messing around with wild animals like they are produce is dangerous and wrong and nature will extract a stiff price for disobeying that rule. We need to stop believing the meme that the world and all its life was created for us to use without consequence.

 

[jnug]

I'm to the left of Fidel Castro, so i don't know if I'm your target audience.

I don't really think it matters where it came from.

I also think that Dr. Fauci is a hero and we should build little statues of him all over the country.

I think knowing it started in China is helpful information. But its delusional to think we can narrow it farther than that without the help of the Chinese government and they ain't helping and are not likely to help.

Dr Redfield has only said about one thing I agree with: "this is a matter for the Intelligence Community now"

In case nobody has noticed, the IC makes assessments. That is the best you get in a case like this....an assessment. Low and Medium confidence government assessments are barely worth the time it takes to produce them. They are basically the government making the following statement. "We are working on it". It is what it is.

 

[samiam5211]

Be honest. They are clinging to the lab leak because Trump said it was the cause and there is really no other reason. They are desperate for any shred of Trump's long list of crazy conspiracy theories to be true. It is vindication for some strange reason. They do not understand the real message covid has sent us. That messing around with wild animals like they are produce is dangerous and wrong and nature will extract a stiff price for disobeying that rule.

I hate Donald Trump and think the world would be a better place if his mother had had an abortion, so he's got nothing to do with my believing it most likely came from the lab. If anything, him saying that made me question it even more than I otherwise would have.

 

[fireflygmf]

The reason the lab is there is because other viruses have emerged nearby, due to the wet markets and the frontier of human settlement with nature.

Does that change your thinking at all?

Unfortunately, you may have self-owned on this one. This lab was known for deploying teams to areas off the South China Sea for collection of virus samples (via bats). As it turns out, sars-cov-2 is closest related to bats found in Loas (just south of China). The bat populations that carry this virus do not live anywhere near Wuhan.

See this link

 

[iguanaman]

I hate Donald Trump and think the world would be a better place if his mother had had an abortion, so he's got nothing to do with my believing it most likely came from the lab. If anything, him saying that made me question it even more than I otherwise would have.

Then how did the covid virus get on the cages in the market that held Raccoon dogs? And why did the 1st 8 cases of covid in the world infect those at the market too?

 

[Donatello]

The answer is obvious. Obama flew to China in 2019 and engineered the COVIDs himself. All of the COVIDs. He wanted revenge on King Puckerhead, so he glued mRNA molecules together using ivermectin, aquarium cleaner, and UV light. That's why any one of the medicines in the glue will make the pesky virus jump right out of the body and hop away screaming "meep meep meep!" all the way down the street. This is top secret stuff here, so don't tell anybody.

I think I heard that also. But mums the word.

 

[samiam5211]

Then how did the covid virus get on the cages in the market that held Raccoon dogs? And why did the 1st 8 cases of covid in the world infect those at the market too?

Did it come from a bat or a raccoon dog?

When was the virus detected on the cages? How do we know any of this?

I'm sorry, but i'm not going to ever take any data that comes out of China at face value.

There will never be any evidence that changes my mind at this point three years later. It's irrational, but i can't force my mind to change.

Maybe if this data was coming out right as the pandemic was starting, I would find it more credible.

 

[Galactic Spin]

Unfortunately, you may have self-owned on this one. This lab was known for deploying teams to areas off the South China Sea for collection of virus samples (via bats). As it turns out, sars-cov-2 is closest related to bats found in Loas (just south of China). The bat populations that carry this virus do not live anywhere near Wuhan.

See this link

And your own link shows a closely related virus found in Southwest China, with that virus closely related to those found in Laos. So the geographical span shows the possibility that virus related to both child have jumped to humans closer to the vicinity of Wuhan.

Also:

“In my opinion, these viruses won’t just be found in bats and pangolins. Ecology isn’t like that. I suspect that they will also be found in other mammalian species but have not yet been sampled,” Prof. Holmes said.

So it doesn't seem very conclusive.

 

[Cope]

China is a valuable and important trading partner who is also our biggest enemy? Do you not see something wrong about that statement?

No, I don't see a problem with the statement, as both can be true.

They are also a competitor and a dictatorship aligned with Russia too. Doesn't who they choose as an ally more threatening than anything? Isn't weakening their ally a good way to weaken China's threats?

They certainly are, they are also less effective in competition, nor do they hold a substantial amount of our debt.

I'd imagine people could disagree about who is the bigger threat.

 

[iguanaman]

No, I don't see a problem with the statement, as both can be true.

They certainly are, they are also less effective in competition, nor do they hold a substantial amount of our debt.

I'd imagine people could disagree about who is the bigger threat.

Russia's comparative lack of dependence on trade with the west makes them a larger threat not a smaller one. China's economy would collapse without trade with the west and that gives us much more leverage over them than with Russia. Putin is now openly defying our strictest sanctions and continuing his invasion to annex Ukraine and his people are staying in line and he is determined to keep his economy afloat without trade with the west. Much like the USSR did for over 50 years. China has no such ability and the govt. fears rebellion if their trade bankrupts their people. I'm pretty sure fearing competition is a positive thing for America too. Competition brings progress and I am pretty confident that America will prevail. The truth is we have been resting on our laurels and neglecting our infrastructure and technology for far too long in the pursuit of enriching the 1% and that needs to change.