• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Nevermind the disappearing working class.

and that money doesn't affect the way people vote? if it isn't to influence the vote, why do they spend that can kind of money?

Some, perhaps. Those that wish to be swayed by promises instead of proof, a sincere smile instead of actions and history will always exist. Those that take it seriously and beyond their own wants, don't need the 'campaigning' to understand what the campaigner is about.
 
Some, perhaps. Those that wish to be swayed by promises instead of proof, a sincere smile instead of actions and history will always exist. Those that take it seriously and beyond their own wants, don't need the 'campaigning' to understand what the campaigner is about.

money influences the campaiging, the messaging, how much of it, etc.
 
money influences the campaiging, the messaging, how much of it, etc.

Considering that I (and many others) don't pay attention to the campaigning, it really only influences those who allow it to.

So all in all, they buy cheap votes that way. Mayhap it is also the reason certain groups are catered to. :wink:
 
Considering that I (and many others) don't pay attention to the campaigning, it really only influences those who allow it to.

So all in all, they buy cheap votes that way. Mayhap it is also the reason certain groups are catered to. :wink:

GottaGo, I gotta go, but let me just say that these people don't spend that kind of money without knowing that it pays off (e.g. Why do companies spend what they do for a 30 second Super Bowl ad) ... but in a way it doesn't matter ... both parties (or the two wings of the Capitalist Party) are in the pockets of monied interests ... we do agree that voters should become much more informed, but that's not likely to happen with mainstream journalism all but dead, with reality T.V., poor educational system, etc. ...
 
GottaGo, I gotta go, but let me just say that these people don't spend that kind of money without knowing that it pays off (e.g. Why do companies spend what they do for a 30 second Super Bowl ad) ... but in a way it doesn't matter ... both parties (or the two wings of the Capitalist Party) are in the pockets of monied interests ... we do agree that voters should become much more informed, but that's not likely to happen with mainstream journalism all but dead, with reality T.V., poor educational system, etc. ...

Have an excellent day.
 
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

That's a rhetorical question. ;)

It isn't a communist idea it's how a society works, societies exist because it's beneficial for people to be in groups than alone.
 
Republicans demonized them as lazy and stupid. Further, they didn't fit into conservative plans for capital flight to sweatshop nations. They specifically crafted to the treaties to globalize capital but not worker protection, and conservatives blocked any attempt to restrict outsourcing. Further, Republicans have made it harder and harder to unionize (and vilified unions), and unions were the means by which working people obtain some modicum of negotiating strength against business. Finally, the GOP cut taxes on the rich and blocked any attempt to raise taxes, which is the only way to make trade with sweatshop nations a good deal for working people here -- comparative advantage benefits trading nations in the aggregate, but not classes within each nation. Specifically the rich have gotten richer with trade, while workers income has dropped. The way to handle that is to increase taxes on the upper brackets and use that revenue to retrain and educate workers. But of course conservatives blocked that.

You act surprised.

Once again, grand disillusionment on display.

You really wanna know what happened to the "working class" jobs in America? They got shipped overseas. Not because of some trade agreement like Bill Clinton signed into law (NAFTA), but because of regulatory environment, and taxation.

The "greenies" on the left have found power in government, and a friend of the progressive left. (enter Solyndra for example). Because of Global Warming junk science, the government began mandating new restrictions on emissions, which drastically effect working class jobs like manufacturing, coal mining, farming, ranching, forestry, shipping, and transportation based jobs. This drove up the COST of doing business in America, so companies shopped LABOR abroad, and found cheap labor in emerging countries like China, Mexico, latin America.

Now ask yourself, what makes more sense? This bull**** Joaquin spouts out about Conservatives opposing unions? Or businesses who made decisions to export labor to countries because the cost of doing business in America simply got too high?

On one hand, the same liberal retards who shout from the roof tops, "we need to regulate these global pollutors!!!!", are the same liberal retards who bitch about regulating those companies to the point of companies moving LABOR overseas, or production overseas.

Obama mocks the idea of building navy destroyers, which would be done by the WORKING CLASS. He specifically states that his policies will shut down coal plants, which directly kills the working class. He rejects things like the keystone pipeline, which would directly hire working class people. He despises the oil and gas industry, which is predominantly working class people. He wants to regulate CO2 emissions to the point a farmer can't even run his tractor, which directly hurts the working class. Liberals wan't to cut all this pollution, but then wanna whine and bitch about the loss of jobs as a result!

You can't have it both ways liberals. If you are going to save the planet by cutting emissions on these industries, you gotta understand that a side effect is the loss of labor based jobs.

Joaquin has no idea what he's talking about.
 
one of my points is not that it is simply up to people ... there is a social, political, and historical context in which all of this takes place .. Why do corporations and the very wealthy give as much money as they do to politicians? To make our system more democratic, to expand opportunities for others to compete with them?

Ask yourself why politicians will spend millions and millions of THEIR OWN money, to get elected to a job that pays a couple hundred thousand a year? It's not about money. It's about POWER AND CONTROL.

Same with corporations, they have every right to petition their government, and to lobby for their best interest. That doesn't mean the government must whore themselves out to the highest bidder. They are to take THE PEOPLE into consideration first. If a corporation is doing good for society, which most are, then what's the problem?

I'll tell you what the problem is, and it's psychological for the most part. There's this belief out there in society that corporations are evil, greedy, self-serving, and care only about profit. Is it true to an extent? Yes it is. But it's not true that the success of corporations hinges on the suffering of everyone else. Corporations hire workers, who are paid wages. I'll use a popular liberal target as an example: Exxon. They are a huge corporation, make unbelievable amounts of money.

But they also employee thousands and thousands of men and women who are paid very well actually. Average salary of an Exxon worker is over 60k a year. That's pretty good. Think of the number of families their company supports. They provide insurance, vacation, overtime, comp time, and even free day care for women employees. But the left just focuses on their "record profits made on the backs of the workers".

It's a mindset that is all wrong in this country. We should be creating more Exxons, not trying anyway we can to punish them, and hate on them.
 
Ask yourself why politicians will spend millions and millions of THEIR OWN money, to get elected to a job that pays a couple hundred thousand a year? It's not about money. It's about POWER AND CONTROL.

I hate to nitpick you because overall, I agree, but I think this is an important point that's worth nitpicking. Money IS power. Likewise, power is money. You can readily convert one to the other pretty much at will. Not that there's anything wrong with the but just sayin'.
 
I hate to nitpick you because overall, I agree, but I think this is an important point that's worth nitpicking. Money IS power. Likewise, power is money. You can readily convert one to the other pretty much at will. Not that there's anything wrong with the but just sayin'.

Yes, money is power. But so is information. Boy, isn't that becoming more and more clear in this NSA scandal?

What people better wake up and realize is that PROGRESSIVISM is alive and well in BOTH PARTIES, and progressivism is bad for America. Sounds counter-intuitive doesn't it? Progress is a bad thing? What?

Progression in the wrong direction is definately a bad thing for our economy, society, government, and country as a whole. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards a more free society, or a more regulated one. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards a more unified society, or a more divided one. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards better economic security, or more towards economic uncertainty. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards higher inflation rates, or lower inflation rates. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards smaller government or larger government.

We are progressing alright, in all the wrong ways. Racking up unpayable debts as we go.

And the only reason money has become power within government, is because government has become whorish, and is willing to ignore government's true purpose in exchange for lining their own personal pockets.
 
Yes, money is power. But so is information. Boy, isn't that becoming more and more clear in this NSA scandal?

What people better wake up and realize is that PROGRESSIVISM is alive and well in BOTH PARTIES, and progressivism is bad for America. Sounds counter-intuitive doesn't it? Progress is a bad thing? What?

Progression in the wrong direction is definately a bad thing for our economy, society, government, and country as a whole. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards a more free society, or a more regulated one. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards a more unified society, or a more divided one. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards better economic security, or more towards economic uncertainty. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards higher inflation rates, or lower inflation rates. Ask yourself if we are "progressing" towards smaller government or larger government.

We are progressing alright, in all the wrong ways. Racking up unpayable debts as we go.

And the only reason money has become power within government, is because government has become whorish, and is willing to ignore government's true purpose in exchange for lining their own personal pockets.

Progress is good, but as in most things "progressives" have it backwards and actually favor things that set us back instead of move us forward. They have this childlike simple-minded belief that "change" is progress, apparently unable to grasp the fact that change is just change. "Into the fire" isn't an improvement from "in the frying pan". It's change but change isn't good just because it's change.
 
Progress is good, but as in most things "progressives" have it backwards and actually favor things that set us back instead of move us forward. They have this childlike simple-minded belief that "change" is progress, apparently unable to grasp the fact that change is just change. "Into the fire" isn't an improvement from "in the frying pan". It's change but change isn't good just because it's change.

Correct..

Now, either you're a person who "understands" what you just said, or you're a person who's willing to "admit" the obvious. Change isn't neccessarily good. You get it, plus you admit it. Progressives rarely understand it, and never admit it.

It's because they are driven by ideology, not intelligence.
 
It isn't a communist idea it's how a society works, societies exist because it's beneficial for people to be in groups than alone.

There are many ways for society to work. Your communist ideas are one of the ways, but in that sense I use the word "work" very loosely because it's failed everywhere it's been tried and at best, it "works" very badly.
 
Well, the conservatives are not the ones who are trying to negotiate a TPP and a US-Europe trade agreement, Obama is, but let's blame George Bush for those too......

Conservative ideology is the problem; whoever promotes it is irrelevant; the outcome is the same: suppression of wages for working people..
 
Americans want 2 things.

1. Plentiful and cheap goods.?

False: they want affordable health care, affordable education, and affordable housing -- all of which don't exist and isn't promoted by outsourcing and trade with sweatshop nations. Indeed, inflation in these areas is astronomical.

Americans don't really care if socks cost a little bit more. You can only buy so many socks. But our trade policy, which is conservative at heart, incentivized cheap goods because that provided a good return no capital, and the entire policy is to benefit owners of capital, not workers.
 
False: they want affordable health care, affordable education, and affordable housing -- all of which don't exist and isn't promoted by outsourcing and trade with sweatshop nations. Indeed, inflation in these areas is astronomical.

Americans don't really care if socks cost a little bit more. You can only buy so many socks. But our trade policy, which is conservative at heart, incentivized cheap goods because that provided a good return no capital, and the entire policy is to benefit owners of capital, not workers.

Hello Bull, meet Crap.....

Americans HAVE affordable health care. If you're really poor, it's free. What's more affordable than free? We also have Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and Title X. Americans already have affordable health care. If a poor kid breaks his leg, liberal idiots would have you believe that the hospital throws that kid out into the street, spits on his face, and says, "get outta here you uninsured piece of trash". But we all know THE REAL story in America. The kid gets his leg fixed, hospital TRIES to get money from mom and dad, but if they're too poor, they eat the cost, or bill Medicaid if the kid was on it.

They already have affordable education as well. Public education through 12th grade is FREE. What is more affordable than free? Higher education is more affordable for the poor than it is for those hovering around middle to middle/upper class. If you're poor, you can get grants, which never have to be paid back. Student loans are the easiest loan a person can get. Going to college? Yeah, I want to, but cant afford it. Well, can you fog this mirror? Ok, you qualify for a student loan. How about kids start showing improvements K-12 before we address the affordability of college. A lot of these disenfranchised people liberals talk about when it comes to college educations, don't even finish high school, and it's free to attend!!!!

Affordable housing? If you're really poor, housing is free or heavily subsidized. What's more affordable than free?

People like Joaquin want FREE everything. That's their utopian pipe dream. But they forget, there was a country that tried that once upon a time in history, and it brought about the worst human suffering imaginable. When they say "affordable", that's code speak for "make the rich pay for my ****".
 
There are many ways for society to work. Your communist ideas are one of the ways, but in that sense I use the word "work" very loosely because it's failed everywhere it's been tried and at best, it "works" very badly.

You are part of society, it is modern society works we pay taxes, it's more useful to you that other people can get a good education and become the doctors you visit, the electrician that wires your house, the programmer who created vBulletin, etc. that is how society works. It is the core reason we have govment you give up some of your freedom in exchange for security and other benefits.
 
Conservative ideology is the problem; whoever promotes it is irrelevant; the outcome is the same: suppression of wages for working people..

So, what you are saying is that Obama is selling out American workers, correct? Yes or No.
 
Hello Bull, meet Crap.....

Americans HAVE affordable health care. If you're really poor, it's free. What's more affordable than free? We also have Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and Title X. Americans already have affordable health care. If a poor kid breaks his leg, liberal idiots would have you believe that the hospital throws that kid out into the street, spits on his face, and says, "get outta here you uninsured piece of trash". But we all know THE REAL story in America. The kid gets his leg fixed, hospital TRIES to get money from mom and dad, but if they're too poor, they eat the cost, or bill Medicaid if the kid was on it.

They already have affordable education as well. Public education through 12th grade is FREE. What is more affordable than free? Higher education is more affordable for the poor than it is for those hovering around middle to middle/upper class. If you're poor, you can get grants, which never have to be paid back. Student loans are the easiest loan a person can get. Going to college? Yeah, I want to, but cant afford it. Well, can you fog this mirror? Ok, you qualify for a student loan. How about kids start showing improvements K-12 before we address the affordability of college. A lot of these disenfranchised people liberals talk about when it comes to college educations, don't even finish high school, and it's free to attend!!!!

Affordable housing? If you're really poor, housing is free or heavily subsidized. What's more affordable than free?

People like Joaquin want FREE everything. That's their utopian pipe dream. But they forget, there was a country that tried that once upon a time in history, and it brought about the worst human suffering imaginable. When they say "affordable", that's code speak for "make the rich pay for my ****".

When challenged with facts, conservatives deny any problem exists.

NEXT RIGHTWING MEME!
 
So, what you are saying is that Obama is selling out American workers, correct? Yes or No.

He's not as progressive as I want. What are you saying, that you like Obama and his conservative policies?

Jeez, try to discuss a topic without bring up your Obamafetish.
 
He's not as progressive as I want. What are you saying, that you like Obama and his conservative policies?

Jeez, try to discuss a topic without bring up your Obamafetish.

Ha ha ha. Mr. Obama Does No Wrong cannot even admit that Obama is engaging in activities that he opposes. Equivocation=Hypocrisy ; Personal attacks=Cowardice. Oh I think you have been added to the NSA Watchlist now. I would be very careful on my next flight--I hear you might end up on the side of a volcano in the middle of nowhere Africa months later. Not Kenya though---they are trying to keep it classy in the homeland :mrgreen:
 
Back
Top Bottom