- Joined
- Mar 5, 2018
- Messages
- 8,009
- Reaction score
- 1,428
- Location
- Seattle, WA
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Very Conservative
Points out sheeple are stupid. I have LED lights in my home, not to save the environment, but because it made sense economically to make that change. We ALMOST bought a Prius, not to save the earth but because we liked the vehicle.
Why would it harm your retirement account? Can you elaborate?
No, but there IS an attempt to grab power.
It is the Church of Global Warming (and you) that denies science and mathematics. It denies the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law, and denies statistical mathematics.
Inversion fallacy. The Church of Global Warming wants to create oligarchies to manage 'global warming', a term they can't even define. There is nothing evil about companies, big or small. They produce products and services the market desires.
Killing customers is bad for business. No company kills its customers and stays in business.
Vague.This is a void argument. Meaningless.
Capitalism doesn't destroy anything. It is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.
Does not destroy the Earth.
Does not destroy the Earth. In the United States, we actually have more trees than ever before, thanks to companies like Weyerhauser. and Georgia-Pacific. They are farmers. They plant trees because they harvest them later for various products. That doesn't include the smaller private farmers.
Soot does not destroy the Earth. It is a waste of fuel, but that is all. In the United States, soot is no longer a problem in cars, coal plants, oil fired plants, or natural gas plants. Socialist countries like China are putting out soot because there is no incentive to improve it.
Do not destroy the Earth.
Void argument again. The 'perpetrators' are all the same because YOU specifically chose oil products to denigrate (with the exception of the wood products industry).
He didn't. He is using your own words against you.
Socialism is destructive to the economy. It can only exist by stealing wealth. You are advocating socialism in the form of fascism.
Nothing is collapsing.but if the world's ecology collapses then human systems will go with it.
Nothing is collapsing.
Ingrates like you just don't appreciate how much cleaner people like me have made the United States. It is because of people me (and a lot of them) that build the more efficient cars, reduce the use of costly chemicals, grow more and better food, build quieter and more efficient aircraft, build cleaner and more efficient sewage treatment plants, etc.The ecological systems that sustain humanity are degenerating to the point that they soon will not be able to recover, all due to overharvesting or human waste overwhelm, all directly because of consumer capitalism and the growth model of economy.
You don't care about them. They are just pawns to you.That's putting aside any potential empathy that people like me also have for the rest of life on this planet.
No, we aren't. I have personally built systems that produce potable water as effluent from sewage plants.If you just look at what humans need, we are basically ****ting where we eat at this point.
Capitalism has no 'form'. It simply is. It is capitalism that built all these systems.Capitalism in its current form must end.
Religion, actually. It is obvious you are a devout worshiper of the Church of Green. You have no clue.As long as input costs do not include environmental costs, our economy will keep "growing" until we kill ourselves off. Fact, not fiction.
You don't get to be dictator.The fiduciary responsibility of economy must change.
They will be happier, healthier, and better fed than our generation.Profit is meaningless if we have no natural legacy to leave for future generations.
Guess you would rather not plan anything, eh?Short term, quarterly systems thinking can't go on any longer.
There are no oligarchies in capitalism.It was invented by the current oligarchs
There is nothing evil about profit.for massive short term gain and wealth accumulation.
Capitalism IS reality. It is the only system that creates wealth. It is the most environmentally friendly as well. Compare the United States to the socialist nations like China, which burn coal so poorly the soot hangs in the air for weeks at a time.They played the game well. Now it's over and we need to move on with reality.
Ingrates like you just don't appreciate how much cleaner people like me have made the United States. It is because of people me (and a lot of them) that build the more efficient cars, reduce the use of costly chemicals, grow more and better food, build quieter and more efficient aircraft, build cleaner and more efficient sewage treatment plants, etc.
You don't care about them. They are just pawns to you.
No, we aren't. I have personally built systems that produce potable water as effluent from sewage plants.
Capitalism has no 'form'. It simply is. It is capitalism that built all these systems.
Religion, actually. It is obvious you are a devout worshiper of the Church of Green. You have no clue.
You don't get to be dictator.
They will be happier, healthier, and better fed than our generation.
Guess you would rather not plan anything, eh?
There are no oligarchies in capitalism.
There is nothing evil about profit.
Compare the United States to the socialist nations like China, which burn coal so poorly the soot hangs in the air for weeks at a time.
Because you are believing all the scripture the Church of Green is giving you. It's false. You bellyache about how the world is going to hell and do NOTHING about it (except bellyache). The world isn't even going to hell.I don't know why you're calling me an ingrate when I work regularly with green initiatives.
It's not occurring.I think it's wonderful and inventive that you are working to create solutions on an individual level -- you have my respect for that; but what the OP speaks to is that individual changes are not going to change the cumulative damage that's occurring.
You are just trying to justify destroying the 'evil' corporation. I am a corporation. My business is incorporated.Most of the world's pollution is being generated by a minority of companies that are not only refusing to shift their fiduciary responsibility, they are actively spending time, money and energy in spreading disinformation to try and manipulate the public into maintaining old models.
It means what it says.Other life on this planet is my pawn? I don't understand this statement.
There is no ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale.That's great... are your systems being adopted on a scale that can significantly impact the ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale?
There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.All of the solutions we need have already been invented, some of them 100 years ago (like Tesla's free energy devices),
There is no ruling class. Any corporation must make a profit to survive. If it mistreats its customers, it won't be around for long. A corporation is profitable because people WANT to buy their products.but without support from the ruling class,
Because of physics, not because of corporations.they won't come to light.
There are no oligarches in capitalism.And they certainly can't become fruitful in an economic environment where oligarchs are actively trying to suppress innovation for their personal gain.
There are no networks, structures, or M.O. in capitalism.Capitalism has a very clear form. It is well defined. Its networks, structures, and M.O. have all been carefully studied.
Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth. Capitalism is self-sustaining.Yes, capitalism built the non-sustainable systems I am referring to.
Relevant. You must bellyache about some total devastation that doesn't even exist.Your ad homs are irrelevant.
You are not accurate at all.Not trying to be. I'm just (accurately) opinionated.
Food shortages have been with the world since there has been food. We are actually better at feeding the world than ever before now.Not according to even the most optimistic projections. There are global food shortages on a yearly basis now.
You are not a dictator. The Church of Green is not an oligarchy. You don't get to decide what this planet can support.The Green Revolution is maxing out as the growth model reaches the boundaries of what this planet can support.
Capitalism produced cleaner cars, cleaner powerplants, cleaner aircraft, more efficient and safer pesticides, a greater amount of food and water, better transportation systems to get it where it needs to go, and the very communications systems that you are using right now to whine about how bad capitalism is.As I said previously... an economic system that factors environmental costs into input costs will satisfy short term profits will preserving long term integrity. The current model does not do that. The earth is viewed as expendable, except through government regulation and taxation, both of which do not work.
No corporation has the ability to control the economy.Yes there are. In global capitalism there are major players (about 50-100) who, along with certain banking institutions, have amassed most of the world's wealth or have ability to directly or indirectly control the economy.
All corporations are made up people. They are not oligarchs. Wealth doesn't mean 'evil'.Corporations are "people" now and they are the oligarchs, along with the wealthiest families.
China is not a capitalist nation. It is an oligarchy.China went from an agrarian monarchy to an industrialized capitalist nation in less than 40 years.
Because the oligarchy has no idea how to run a business or manage their resources.Of course it's polluted.
Nope. They HAVE decided to use a more modern method of building their coal plants (which don't pollute as much), but that's about it.However, China has more green energy projects than the next leading 5 nations combined.
Go study the history of China. It is almost continuous violent revolution after violent revolution. These last few decades are an anomaly in China's history. They are in danger of returning to their violent history once again.Because business does not control their government, they plan their society according to longevity.
They are not trying to save it.The jury's still out right now about whether or not their environment can be saved.
Yes it is.Capitalism is not the only system that generates wealth,
Yes you are.Once again, I'll repeat this for the visually impaired: I'm not against capitalism,
No such thing.I'm against consumer capitalism
Capitalism considers all costs and all forms of opportunity.and any economic system that does not factor in environmental costs.
We already are.I think we need to convert to a resource based economy.
Not possible.For the record, I support an economy that is part capitalist and part socialist,
Any socialist program fails miserably when capitalist systems are available. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.which the United States currently is, as well as the leading G8 nations.
Capitalism does exactly this.However, no nation currently has an economic model that factors in environmental resources,
Ah...the usual doom and gloom prediction from the Church of Green.and that is going to bite humanity in the ass big time in less than 40 years.
They already can. Did you know that an old growth forest is a dead and dying forest?I want future generations to have the ability to visit old growth nature and form connections with it.
They already can.I want people to experience the natural legacy of this planet, which took many millions of years to form.
There already are.I also want there to be viable natural resources available for humans to live on for many generations to come.
Yes it does.The current global capitalist model does not support that.
I don't think you understand just how small a pit mine is.It scores the earth as it scoops up enormous resources,
No pit mine has ever caused extinction. Animals go extinct from time to time. This is normal. New species are being discovered also. This is also normal.permanently extinguishing species
Oil and natural gas ARE renewable. So is food, water, air, etc.and renewability in the process.
Inversion fallacy.It continues to be an unpunished crime against humanity and life itself. It's nothing short of psychopathic and myopic.
Because you are believing all the scripture the Church of Green is giving you. It's false. You bellyache about how the world is going to hell and do NOTHING about it (except bellyache). The world isn't even going to hell.
You are just trying to justify destroying the 'evil' corporation.
There is no ecological devastation that's occurring on a global scale.
There is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine.
There is no ruling class. Any corporation must make a profit to survive. If it mistreats its customers, it won't be around for long. A corporation is profitable because people WANT to buy their products.
There are no oligarches in capitalism.
There are no networks, structures, or M.O. in capitalism.
Capitalism is the only system that creates wealth. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth. Capitalism is self-sustaining.
Relevant. You must bellyache about some total devastation that doesn't even exist.
You are not accurate at all.
Food shortages have been with the world since there has been food. We are actually better at feeding the world than ever before now.
You are not a dictator. The Church of Green is not an oligarchy. You don't get to decide what this planet can support.
Capitalism produced cleaner cars, cleaner powerplants, cleaner aircraft, more efficient and safer pesticides, a greater amount of food and water, better transportation systems to get it where it needs to go, and the very communications systems that you are using right now to whine about how bad capitalism is.
No corporation has the ability to control the economy.
All corporations are made up people. They are not oligarchs. Wealth doesn't mean 'evil'.
China is not a capitalist nation. It is an oligarchy.
Because the oligarchy has no idea how to run a business or manage their resources.
Nope. They HAVE decided to use a more modern method of building their coal plants (which don't pollute as much), but that's about it.
Go study the history of China. It is almost continuous violent revolution after violent revolution. These last few decades are an anomaly in China's history. They are in danger of returning to their violent history once again.
They are not trying to save it.
Capitalism considers all costs and all forms of opportunity.
Any socialist program fails miserably when capitalist systems are available. Socialism can only exist by stealing wealth.
Ah...the usual doom and gloom prediction from the Church of Green.
They already can. Did you know that an old growth forest is a dead and dying forest?
No pit mine has ever caused extinction. Animals go extinct from time to time. This is normal. New species are being discovered also. This is also normal.
Want to know what saved the whales? It was Big Oil.
Oil and natural gas ARE renewable. So is food, water, air, etc.
Inversion fallacy.
The scripture of the Church of Green.What scripture?
Then tell me what you are doing besides bellyaching.You don't know me IRL... you don't know what action I'm taking.
Void argument. What 'emissions'?Besides which, the action of individuals is not going to amount to much when 70% of the world's emissions is coming from top industry.
Inversion fallacy.This is something you haven't addressed in your mudslinging .
Paradox noted.Untrue. I said that the fiduciary responsibility of corporate economy must be shifted. I didn't say it should be destroyed. Again you twist my words into lies, which makes me question if there's any point in talking to you further.
You need to get your head out of your scripture and look around.We're in the anthropocene. What you just said is either total denial, wilful ignorance, or outright lying.
Read the post where I made the comment.Can you please quote where I said anything about perpetual motion?
They can't.Or they've cornered the market with laws and political influence to push their products onto the market.
There is no such thing as 'political' science. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.Political science disagrees with you.
They can't.There is when the barons of industry directly influence and control government.
You are.Debating with you is pointless because you keep debunking arguments no one is making. NOBODY is talking about capitalism vs. socialism.
I'm not calling you a dictator. You are not a dictator. I already said this. You are trying to be a dictator. You are not a dictator.Stop calling me a dictator. If you can't debate civilly, then this discussion is over.
Void argument.You only read what you want to read. For the last time: we need a resource based economy that factors environmental costs into input costs. Whether that's capitalism, socialism, moonbat-ism, I don't care what you call it or what it looks like as long as input costs are realistic.
They can't.If they control the government and they capture a market through laws and politics, then they certainly can. A corporation that owns the wealth of nations can control whatever they want.
You did.Nobody said wealth is evil.
Obviously you have no idea what capitalism is.China is more capitalist than the United States.
Not a feature of capitalism.They have fewer regulations on profiteering.
Inversion fallacy.You'd know that if you actually knew what you're talking about, but since you can't even define what capitalism is, there's no point in telling you that.
Non-sequitur fallacy.Because they industrialized with 1.4 billion people. God, you are ignorant, and prideful about it.
The scripture of the Church of Green.
Then tell me what you are doing besides bellyaching.
Void argument. What 'emissions'?
Inversion fallacy.
Paradox noted.
You need to get your head out of your scripture and look around.
Read the post where I made the comment.
They can't.
There is no such thing as 'political' science. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.
They can't.
You are.
I'm not calling you a dictator. You are not a dictator. I already said this. You are trying to be a dictator. You are not a dictator.
Void argument.
They can't.
You did.
Obviously you have no idea what capitalism is.
Not a feature of capitalism.
Inversion fallacy.
Non-sequitur fallacy.
Meh.They have the biggest hydroelectric, wind and solar projects in the world right now.
I don't believe you.I lived in China and part of my masters degree thesis was on eco-regeneration using East Asia as a model. I know way more about this subject than you do.
You mean like usual?They are, because if they don't the People will replace their government with a different one.
Void argument.Untrue. Environmental resource costs are not a factor in input costs. The environment has no inherent value. Only environmental regulations determine what they CAN'T do, but it doesn't determine the value of resources and their replaceability.
That part is failing.That's black/white thinking. The U.S. is part socialist, sorry to shatter your world by telling you that.
No they aren't. No, it won't be.Thousands of species are going extinct each year. By 2030 it will be in the millions. Welcome to the anthropocene.
Fossils don't burn. We don't use them for fuel.Fossil fuels are not renewable
Fossils don't burn. Who cares?Well, I guess they are if you're ready to wait a few million years for carbon to sequester in the ground.
You just have to have the last word don't you? Well, have at it. Nothing you've said has any substance or contributes to real debate. Just a bunch of insults and dismissals based on refusal to consider new information.
Welcome to my ignore list. :2wave:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals
It's time to wake up to the fact that climate change denialism is being supported and funded by the major oligarchs running the global capitalist show. Once you put this into proper perspective, it's obvious why there is reluctance to change: it means having to dismantle our current capitalist paradigm.
Now, I'm not suggesting we do away with capitalism entirely, but that the consumer model and the growth model are not sustainable within a finite system. We must shift our economic way of life toward a resource economy. The world's ecology MUST be factored into input costs and those costs must be distributed wisely. The fiduciary responsibility of the economy has to be shifted away from making obscene profits (money isn't real) and toward thinking about the future of the planet, and not just thinking about what THIS generation can get.
At the very least, we need to start having this conversation. It doesn't mean you're a communist because you start pointing out that global capitalism is destroying the planet and humanity's future. It means that you are assessing flaws in a system and those flaws need addressing.
No more waste, no more excess. We either make this transition willingly or we do it while we face our own peril. The people running this show don't care because they have their bunkers and private oases away from the rest of us who are going to feel the burn in a perhaps fatal way.
It's time to make transparent the very source of our problems: the corporate oligarchs. Sure, every day people are responsible for changing their lives, but the people planning the economy and manipulating government to keep this dinosaur model in place are the ones who should be outed. They obstruct democracy, they rape and pillage, they horde resources, and they pit humans against one another in a competitive model that is leaving future generations a dismal legacy. It must end.
What are those "corporate oligarchs" doing to pollute the climate?
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