Negativism & Defeatism

[Stinger]

This is getting tiresome. Clinton presented clear proof and their was no question. Bush used the evidense Clinton provided and there is suddenly no credible evidense. This is just partisan political bs. The left needs to be honest for a change.

Exactly.:yes:

From National Review Online
June 29, 2005, 9:12 a.m.
It’s All About 9/11
The president links Iraq and al Qaeda — and the usual suspects moan.

The Clinton Justice Department's allegation in a 1998 indictment (two months before the embassy bombings) against bin Laden, to wit: In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.

That's from a federal indictment issue by the Clinton administration!
Ask the left what changed when Bush got sworn in and they sit there mute.

 

[Stinger]

Execution may be going a bit too far, but I do think Durbin should step down. He is a US Senator and should have kept his mouth shut publicly. He gave Al Jezeera ammunition to use against our troops, did he not?

It wouldn't have been to Abraham Lincoln, he would have had the man arrested and possibly before a firing squad.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Clinton presented clear proof and their was no question.

Like when he bombed the infamous "aspirin factory" in Sudan? I don't think it was actually making aspirin, but some sort of medicine.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Why should the terrorist begin to see the light when they can hope the Democrats win and then they win?

Yeah terrorists give a rat's ass about which one of our political parties hold the office of president.

Of course the fact is there were no lies told, what we went to war for was by and large what everyone believe and 99% acurate, we just didn't find any stockpiles of the WMD Saddam had and used previously.

Hogwash.

What we do know, as documented by the Kay report is that he was even MORE dangerous than we thought and as documented by the Duelfer report was well on his way to implimenting his next plan to dominate the middle east.

If you use some unusual definitions of "dangerous" and "well on his way" I guess that you could be right.
How bout you cite the portions of the reports you find so damning? Did you like the nuclear section? Some scientists suspected another scientist of thinking aboput making plans to make plans. Pretty scary, huh?

You should try reading them.

You should try quoting them for the folks playing along at home.

This war was planned out by the greatest military planners in existence.

And then Team Bush scrapped those plans and went with a different set.

And this Monday morning quarterbacking...

What about the Friday night plannig done by the State Dept and the CIA? The wargaming done that showed a lengthy insurgency?

What's your opinion on the decisions to overlook/ignore these sorts of things?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

That's from a federal indictment issue by the Clinton administration!

Cause if Clinton does it, it's gotta be right.

 

[ShamMol]

This is getting tiresome. Clinton presented clear proof and their was no question. Bush used the evidense Clinton provided and there is suddenly no credible evidense. This is just partisan political bs. The left needs to be honest for a change.

Information is outdated quite easily, and that is what happened here. Simple as that. He should have gone back to the beginning to prove it, he didn't, and now we have the world saying we are douches for invading when we didn't have proof. Now, I know you don't care about the world, but I do because I travel. I have gotten some really ugly looks in restruants when I was talking in English in 2003. I haven't been back to England and France yet (and I went yearly to visit friends who now live over there, they come to me now). That isn't right. Now, I have gotten sidetracked, but we didn't prove our case with concrete evidence, and you know that.

 

[Hoot]

Sheesh....Bush lied...I thought everyone knew that by now? It's been proven over and over and over again.

As far as Clinton believing Saddam was a threat...fine, I'll give you that, but what some of you on the right cannot begin to understand is...there's a big difference in believing someone is a threat, and marching our soldiers into a nation that never attacked us and displacing their government!

If Clinton had invaded Iraq, you right-wingers would be storming the White House and screaming for his head.

Clinton would've used strategic bombing, and stronger sanctions with much wider world support. He certainly wouldn't have marched into Iraq without overwhelming support from allied nations! Bush antagonized most of our allies when we had the world's sympathy after 9/11. Is this leadership?

I don't mean to be negative, but it's hard not to be, when we have a president who misleads the American people, and Congress, and picks and choses only the intelligence he wants to use to support this war...a war that we know now was in the planning stages long before the events of 9/11.

 

[stsburns]

Sheesh....Bush lied...I thought everyone knew that by now? It's been proven over and over and over again.

Um, did you forget WE GAVE HIM 6 MONTHS BEFORE WE INVADED, PLENTY OF TIME FOR HIM TO GIVE HIS FRIENDS THEM!

As far as Clinton believing Saddam was a threat...fine, I'll give you that, but what some of you on the right cannot begin to understand is...there's a big difference in believing someone is a threat, and marching our soldiers into a nation that never attacked us and displacing their government!

Yes but did you want to preserve "Human Rights", did you not forget the Kuwait war, where Saddams officers were ordered to kill their own soldiers. Or how about all of the people who dug their graves, and were later shot, under Saddams command, under any suspician that they would not be loyal to him. Hmmm...did you forget about that.

If Clinton had invaded Iraq, you right-wingers would be storming the White House and screaming for his head.

Actually there was a similar scandal that happened during Clinton's 8 years, where he wanted to go to war, but then the "Monica" factor came into play, and we all (Dems/Reps) all payed attention to that.

C

linton would've used strategic bombing, and stronger sanctions with much wider world support. He certainly wouldn't have marched into Iraq without overwhelming support from allied nations! Bush antagonized most of our allies when we had the world's sympathy after 9/11. Is this leadership?

Like that pill factory he destroyed! Precisely forced prices up for that medicine manfacturer, absolute genious! Lets get the UN invovled. First off the UN was created during WWII to allied against Hitler, since then it has slacked on helping the US in any way, yet we fund 2/3 of the costs to run it? Also you fail to realize that UN soldiers have raped women in other countries, but since their UN, they get diplomatic immunity. By the way who are our allied nations, I bet you cant guess them!

I don't mean to be negative, but it's hard not to be, when we have a president who misleads the American people, and Congress, and picks and choses only the intelligence he wants to use to support this war...a war that we know now was in the planning stages long before the events of 9/11.

You have been negative the whole post, why stop now, why stop flamming, I mean who could pull off such a feat, and end on a positive note, nope not you! Presidents have always done the bait and switch, why you are so suprised about is that the person your angry with is not on "Your Party", if he was, it would be a whole different issue, now would it!

 

[ShamMol]

Um, did you forget WE GAVE HIM 6 MONTHS BEFORE WE INVADED, PLENTY OF TIME FOR HIM TO GIVE HIS FRIENDS THEM!

Yeah, prove it. Oh, that's right...the logical side belongs to us.

Yes but did you want to preserve "Human Rights", did you not forget the Kuwait war, where Saddams officers were ordered to kill their own soldiers. Or how about all of the people who dug their graves, and were later shot, under Saddams command, under any suspician that they would not be loyal to him. Hmmm...did you forget about that.

Sorry, I was a bit young then, so I don't remember it. I don't know how I would have felt, but I was four, so bah to you.

Actually there was a similar scandal that happened during Clinton's 8 years, where he wanted to go to war, but then the "Monica" factor came into play, and we all (Dems/Reps) all payed attention to that.

Yeah, except some tried to do extra with it, and then the others realized it for what it was, just a guy getting some tail after hours (or during...or before...).

Like that pill factory he destroyed! Precisely forced prices up for that medicine manfacturer, absolute genious! Lets get the UN invovled. First off the UN was created during WWII to allied against Hitler, since then it has slacked on helping the US in any way, yet we fund 2/3 of the costs to run it? Also you fail to realize that UN soldiers have raped women in other countries, but since their UN, they get diplomatic immunity. By the way who are our allied nations, I bet you cant guess them!

I see, to remember when that pill factory was destroyed, Republicans chasticized him because they felt it was only to divert attention from other things happening at home.

The Un was created afer world war two, get your facts straight mister(http://www.infoplease.com/spot/un1.html). It helps the US when it deems it appropriate. It wasn't appropriate here because the inspections were not completed yet according to those who were doing them. Our allied nations are few and far between because this president has alienated tehm. And btw, as you conservatives say, the acts of a few rouge people don't condemn the entire institution (referring to the UN). I hate the fact it occurs and it must stop (and in fact there is an investigation into it if I am not mistaken)-but I just had to say that before.

You have been negative the whole post, why stop now, why stop flamming, I mean who could pull off such a feat, and end on a positive note, nope not you! Presidents have always done the bait and switch, why you are so suprised about is that the person your angry with is not on "Your Party", if he was, it would be a whole different issue, now would it!

It is our country isn't it? Do we not have the right therefore? We do, and we chose to exercise that right.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Um, did you forget WE GAVE HIM 6 MONTHS BEFORE WE INVADED, PLENTY OF TIME FOR HIM TO GIVE HIS FRIENDS THEM!

If onlly we had thought to watch Iraq and see if he did that. Oh wait, I think we did monitor Iraq for such a possibility. Yet, the ISG found no evidence that such a transference took place.
Hussein just a guy, you know. No magical powers, no invisibility paint, none of that. America's highly trained professionals, watched and searched. I'm willing to believe that our fine folks did their jobs well.
Why are you so down on the people serving our country? You're practically calling them incompetent.

Like that pill factory he destroyed!

It certainly served to highlight the intel issues we have. Kind of gives one pause for thought don't it?

Presidents have always done the bait and switch...

Politicians have also always lied, cheated and stolen. Don't make it right or mean that Americans should just roll over for 'em.
Got to grow some moral values. When something's wrong, it's wrong. Just because some people only seem to notice it when certain people do it don't make it any less wrong.

 

[stsburns]

Yeah, prove it. Oh, that's right...the logical side belongs to us.

:spin:
Yet you didn't state how you were "Logical", you just claimed it!

Sorry, I was a bit young then, so I don't remember it. I don't know how I would have felt, but I was four, so bah to you.

Yep, young and stupid! It is not my fault you mind failed to recover such information, I mean its not like its going to be on a test or anything, much less debated.
Yeah, except some tried to do extra with it, and then the others realized it for what it was, just a guy getting some tail after hours (or during...or before...).

I see, to remember when that pill factory was destroyed, Republicans chasticized him because they felt it was only to divert attention from other things happening at home.

YAY, we agree on something give me a high five! Clinton and his collieges did a better job than Bush's Administration, at diverting attention. As a matter of fact could that be why Bush Senior and Clinton are friends?

The Un was created afer world war two, get your facts straight mister(http://www.infoplease.com/spot/un1.html).

Ok your right, you caught the tater.

It helps the US when it deems it appropriate. It wasn't appropriate here because the inspections were not completed yet according to those who were doing them. Our allied nations are few and far between because this president has alienated tehm. And btw, as you conservatives say, the acts of a few rouge people don't condemn the entire institution (referring to the UN). I hate the fact it occurs and it must stop (and in fact there is an investigation into it if I am not mistaken)-but I just had to say that before.

Yes, but how do we know the UN inspectors were doing their job? We only get 2% of the vote, and the other nations would decline because they would not benefit off of it. Besides the UN were already making deals with Saddam under the title "Oil for Food".

It is our country isn't it? Do we not have the right therefore? We do, and we chose to exercise that right

I have no objection to this debate, that is why we are here discuss our beliefs. But if it is not a right, than it is a Privilege.

 

[ShamMol]

Yet you didn't state how you were "Logical", you just claimed it!

Umm...Cause we are?

Yep, young and stupid! It is not my fault you mind failed to recover such information, I mean its not like its going to be on a test or anything, much less debated.

Yeah, see, I care more about the present day and honestly the previous Iraq was has nothing to do with this war except to show that the current Administration may have had an...extra motive for going...

YAY, we agree on something give me a high five! Clinton and his collieges did a better job than Bush's Administration, at diverting attention. As a matter of fact could that be why Bush Senior and Clinton are friends?

Clinton was the best politician of yours, mine and probably future days. He knew what to do to get people off his back and hwen that didn't work, how to fight. He was amazing at it, and that is one of the reasons I respect him as a politician...as a person...no, but a politician, hell yes.

Ok your right, you caught the tater.

w00t!

Yes, but how do we know the UN inspectors were doing their job? We only get 2% of the vote, and the other nations would decline because they would not benefit off of it. Besides the UN were already making deals with Saddam under the title "Oil for Food".

We rightly only get 2% of the vote. Others woudl have you believe we should get the most because we donate the most, but it is a world organization where everyone should have some say and roughly equal say at that. Not all members, or even most, of the UN were privy to that deal and we should not be so quick to condemn an institution with the history of the UN for the actions of a few. I would have liked to see an investigation done by a team set up by the UN, but alas, I doubt that will ever happen.

And we don't know if the UN inspectors were doing their job, but it is what the international community wanted before they would sanction an attack and invasion. I believe we should have allowed it to go on longer.

I have no objection to this debate, that is why we are here discuss our beliefs. But if it is not a right, than it is a Privilege.

Freedom of speech-right. It is however, a privelege and honor to use this right, I thank you.

 

[stsburns]

ShamMol, Umm...Cause we are?

You still dont get it, EXPLAIN! You think your better than everybody explain why! Stop trying to bring others down to your level!

Yeah, see, I care more about the present day and honestly the previous Iraq was has nothing to do with this war except to show that the current Administration may have had an...extra motive for going...Clinton was the best politician of yours, mine and probably future days. He knew what to do to get people off his back and hwen that didn't work, how to fight. He was amazing at it, and that is one of the reasons I respect him as a politician...as a person...no, but a politician, hell yes.
w00t!

Yes your right Clinton did nothing, and American blood kept spilling on American soil! It is great to see you support Clinton, because someone else who posts can exploit your motives.

We rightly only get 2% of the vote. Others woudl have you believe we should get the most because we donate the most, but it is a world organization where everyone should have some say and roughly equal say at that. Not all members, or even most, of the UN were privy to that deal and we should not be so quick to condemn an institution with the history of the UN for the actions of a few. I would have liked to see an investigation done by a team set up by the UN, but alas, I doubt that will ever happen.

I never posted that, or ever assumed that! UN wouldnt allow it, because Saddam had people he was making deals with in the UN.

And we don't know if the UN inspectors were doing their job,

Once again your assumptions have proved fatal. We didnt know, nor could we prove that they were doing their jobs, its all UN!

I believe we should have allowed it to go on longer.

But not the war, no, not the war! Very contradictory?

Freedom of speech-right. It is however, a privelege and honor to use this right, I thank you.

Refer to my previous posts, I have a statement where I practice my freedom of speech "Right"! It should answer your questions on freedom of speech!

 

[stsburns]

Ok your right, you caught the tater.

w00t!

Your state you are logical, yet you lack a sence of humor?

ITS FROM THE "BLUE COMEDY TOUR" ON COMEDY CENTRAL! RON WHITE TO BE EXACT!

If you want to ease the tention on Flamming posts at least try to tone it down with some humor!

 

[ShamMol]

You still dont get it, EXPLAIN! You think your better than everybody explain why! Stop trying to bring others down to your level!
Yes your right Clinton did nothing, and American blood kept spilling on American soil! It is great to see you support Clinton, because someone else who posts can exploit your motives.

You are the one who always brings people down to my level. Did you get it when I said because we are? I was saying I have no logical explanation. Clinton did nothing and you blame 9-11 on him. I spread the blame around thanks to reading the 9-11 report, you should too, it may reform what you think.

I never posted that, or ever assumed that! UN wouldnt allow it, because Saddam had people he was making deals with in the UN.

That is why I said others would have you believe...that implies that it isn't you. Saddam made deals with some members of the UN, just as we made a deal with Saddam to give him weapons way back when? Oh...yeah...forget I said that. Basically, it comes down to the fact that it was as one conservative on this forum puts it "a few bad apples." And as I said, I would have liked to see an independent investigation into that "scandal."

Once again your assumptions have proved fatal. We didnt know, nor could we prove that they were doing their jobs, its all UN! But not the war, no, not the war! Very contradictory?

Try not breaking up my sentence in the middle and it may make sense to you. If they had been allowed to continue as almost the entire world community wanted...

Refer to my previous posts, I have a statement where I practice my freedom of speech "Right"! It should answer your questions on freedom of speech!

I see it as one of our fundamental rights as human beings. But that isn't really what this response is about now is it.

And on another note, I don't watch the Blue Comedy Tour, I think it isn't that funny. I prefer the American Dad, Family Guy, Simpsons type of funny.

 

[stsburns]

You are the one who always brings people down to my level. Did you get it when I said because we are? I was saying I have no logical explanation. Clinton did nothing and you blame 9-11 on him. I spread the blame around thanks to reading the 9-11 report, you should too, it may reform what you think.

I didn't blame 9-11 on him, you attached it too him like a sticky note. I just said he failed to do anything about our soldiers and embasies being bombed. He did nothing that was my point!

Try not breaking up my sentence in the middle and it may make sense to you. If they had been allowed to continue as almost the entire world community wanted...

You didn't break your sentence, you just didn't complete it...

I see it as one of our fundamental rights as human beings. But that isn't really what this response is about now is it.

Very observant. I posted saying something offensive in a post on "Freedom of Speech". But I consider it more of a privaledge than a right because any Moderator can remove it, thus censorship. So what else do you consider as a right?

And on another note, I don't watch the Blue Comedy Tour, I think it isn't that funny. I prefer the American Dad, Family Guy, Simpsons type of funny.

At least we ruled out your not a Southerner or have Red Kneck relatives, but your Interest in American Dad doesn't suprise me. I love both Family Guy, The Simpsons, and my favorite show Futurama. But I find American Dad as a really bad a spin off Family Guy, but with even more bad taste in jokes. Also I find even American Dad's legacy is rubbing off on Family Guy changing the shows focus, which is why I don't watch the new Family Guy episodes. Seth Macfarelane should stick to Family Guy, because its at least a middle ground show. Besides who doesn't like Stewie? :mrgreen:

 

[Billo_Really]

You cannot have a war with a "concept" (War on Terror). That is too intangible with no way to decide when it ends. What we have here, is American aggression and tyranny on a soveriegn nation, while we celebrate our independance. And you wonder why people want to cut off our heads?

Way to go Team America!

 

[ShamMol]

I didn't blame 9-11 on him, you attached it too him like a sticky note. I just said he failed to do anything about our soldiers and embasies being bombed. He did nothing that was my point!

It can also be said that George Bush did nothing. But the real point is that there are so many people to blame for 9-11 that many conservatives (not you I guess) attach the blame mainly on Clinton. He did act sometimes and when he did, he was accused of wagging the dog. Wouldn't that make you think twice. But honestly, if you read the 9-11 report you see he was much more focused on terrorism than our present president was before 9-11.

You didn't break your sentence, you just didn't complete it...

No, you broke up my sentence in mid sentence and then refuted it as such...yeah.

Very observant. I posted saying something offensive in a post on "Freedom of Speech". But I consider it more of a privaledge than a right because any Moderator can remove it, thus censorship. So what else do you consider as a right?

There are political avenues, there are public avenues, there are private avenues, where freedom of speech has a different meaning. This avenue, a forum, has a little less becuase they have to maintain an environment.

At least we ruled out your not a Southerner or have Red Kneck relatives, but your Interest in American Dad doesn't suprise me. I love both Family Guy, The Simpsons, and my favorite show Futurama. But I find American Dad as a really bad a spin off Family Guy, but with even more bad taste in jokes. Also I find even American Dad's legacy is rubbing off on Family Guy changing the shows focus, which is why I don't watch the new Family Guy episodes. Seth Macfarelane should stick to Family Guy, because its at least a middle ground show. Besides who doesn't like Stewie? :mrgreen:

I have Red Neck relatives....I just don't see them because they severely annoy me. I really appreciate American Dad's humor and I think that those episodes have more...subtle humor than does FG. FG has been incorporating that subtly into the eps and I think it is really benefitting and will only get better. Yeah, "Burn in Hell!" Gotta love stewie.

 

[stsburns]

ShamMol-It can also be said that George Bush did nothing. But the real point is that there are so many people to blame for 9-11 that many conservatives (not you I guess) attach the blame mainly on Clinton. He did act sometimes and when he did, he was accused of wagging the dog. Wouldn't that make you think twice. But honestly, if you read the 9-11 report you see he was much more focused on terrorism than our present president was before 9-11.

What chasing after Bin Laden is considered doing nothing? The war is not measured on who dies, but where they die. Take the bombings in London for example. Who ever attacked London knew before hand that it would be easier to attack them. Because here in a American we are more vigilant and will take a stand whether the government does anything about it or not. But London didn't learn anything after the train explosion (wasn't a hint enough) about 6 months ago.

No, you broke up my sentence in mid sentence and then refuted it as such...yeah.

It was human error, I accendentally qouted you in mid sentence. Sorry.

There are political avenues, there are public avenues, there are private avenues, where freedom of speech has a different meaning. This avenue, a forum, has a little less becuase they have to maintain an environment.

Yes, but you stated in past posts that it was a "Right" . But many different environments which you have proved, changed the amount of the "Right" of which you can use during certain "Avenues".

I have Red Neck relatives....I just don't see them because they severely annoy me. I really appreciate American Dad's humor and I think that those episodes have more...subtle humor than does FG. FG has been incorporating that subtly into the eps and I think it is really benefitting and will only get better. Yeah, "Burn in Hell!" Gotta love stewie.

In a way I feel sorry for your family, because my family is mostly close. Family is family not matter how cooky they may be, because its inevitable that we are going to end up just like them. :mrgreen: To tell you the truth I did like the first two episodes of American Dad, but I still like FG more than I do AD. But we will all see on how well AD will last because all shows live off of ratings, and all shows are rated a "successful show" on how many years they have been on the air. Keep your fingers crossed.Yea, you gotta love Stewie and his hatred of Lowis. :mrgreen:

 

[Bluestateredneck]

ShamMol-It can also be said that George Bush did nothing. But the real point is that there are so many people to blame for 9-11 that many conservatives (not you I guess) attach the blame mainly on Clinton.

I've got no love for Clinton but the people to blame are the TERRORISTS!
You don't blame the bar for a drunk driving accident. While it can be argued that Clinton had the chance to take hold of OBL and this may or may not have changed the course of 9/11, the fact remains that terrorists are the ones who attacked and they are to blame regardless of missed or botched national security opportunities.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Well said!

 

[Kelzie]

I've got no love for Clinton but the people to blame are the TERRORISTS!
You don't blame the bar for a drunk driving accident. While it can be argued that Clinton had the chance to take hold of OBL and this may or may not have changed the course of 9/11, the fact remains that terrorists are the ones who attacked and they are to blame regardless of missed or botched national security opportunities.

Umm..actually, as a person who has worked in many a bar, I can say with complete confidence that the bar is liable. You are not supposed to serve someone who appears drunk. Sorry, off topic.

 

[Bluestateredneck]

Umm..actually, as a person who has worked in many a bar, I can say with complete confidence that the bar is liable. You are not supposed to serve someone who appears drunk. Sorry, off topic.

You are misunderstanding the analogy. The point is placing accountability where it belongs instead of shifting the blame.

 

[Messerschmitt]

Ok here is the fixed analogy. You don't blame the guy working at the beer company who bottles the beer for a drunk driving accident.