Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Question

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

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Could someone answer a serious question...


................... Where was the gender of the victim identified in the cases from the OP?



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The gender wasn't disclosed at all, which goes into the discussion as well. For all anyone knows, this could have very easily have been a case of someone filming a consensual sexual encounter and that being the only thing they could actually get the person on, since the sex was consensual, it was merely the filming of it that wasn't. Or it could have been some pervert who set up a camera and got caught. We had a CS (MS at the time) who was caught in a female berthing, stealing dirty underwear from laundry bags. When they searched his locker/rack, they found dozens of pairs of women's underwear that this guy had been able to filch over the few months we were out to sea. Some people are just not right.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Just a technical correction.

No it doesn't. It means, to paraphrase, to be in a deployable status. I was in 4 different squadrons. One was a training command - it wasn't sea duty. Two were deployable to ships - they were sea duty. One was deployable, but the aircraft were to big to land on ships - it was still sea duty.


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But that really just means it includes more people who are actually on shore, here in the states, rather than at sea but still considered doing sea duty.

(But thank you for the clarification, I just didn't want to get into the finer details and end up rambling. Heck, I dated a seabee in Hawaii, before I met my husband, who was there for his deployment. His job was to build something on the island, but it was his whole 6 month deployment. He was stationed in Miss. normally.)

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Sea duty involves being attached to a ship. My husband could be considered on "sea duty" right now because of being attached to a ship, but he still works on shore and hasn't been at sea on a ship his entire enlistment. I was in port much more than I was at sea while attached to the Lincoln. And we only had a couple of girls who left the ship due to pregnancies in my department, only one while we were at sea, and that happened less than a month into our deployment (which she detached from the ship, had an abortion, which she paid for, and was back onboard within the month after she left). We do have cases where there is sex aboard ship, but there have been cases of sex aboard ship since the dawn of ships. It was men in the past having sex with each other under the radar ("it's not gay underway" is a popular submariner saying).

And straight from your article

"Inappropriate contact between men and women of the 5,500-member mixed crew is rare because of the severe penalties imposed on violators of the Navy's ban on fraternization and intimacy aboard its vessels."

I was onboard during that article time. I know what went on and what didn't. I also know there is very little privacy aboard a ship. Many women are on birth control, and we get condoms given to us any time we hit a liberty port.

And the "36 women pregnant" article was from 1991, prior to women being allowed aboard any combat ships.

First you say it doesn't happen then you say it does happen.

On another post you said your husband was at one time a member of the ships Marine Detachment. Now you say he has never been to sea during his entire enlistment. Marines who belong to a VMFA squadron who are attached to a carrier air wing are not considered to be a "ships" Marine Detachment. Those Marines who are part of a BLT or MEU aboard an amphibious ship are not members of a ships company and are not a ships Marine Detachment.

I believed the Marines Sea School at MCRDSD was deactivated during the Clinton administration. This is when they started deactivating all Marine ship detachments aboard all Navy carriers and cruisers.

Marines who were part of a ships Marine detachment were easy to spot when they were going up a ladder aboard ship. The bottom of the soles of their shoes were polished with black Kiwi boot polish. It really had an impression on a swabie who was behind the Marine going up the ladder. Made them feel like landlubbers.

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

One was deployable, but the aircraft were to big to land on ships - it was still sea duty.


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Were those aircraft larger than a C-130 ?

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

First you say it doesn't happen then you say it does happen.

On another post you said your husband was at one time a member of the ships Marine Detachment. Now you say he has never been to sea during his entire enlistment. Marines who belong to a VMFA squadron who are attached to a carrier air wing are not considered to be a "ships" Marine Detachment. Those Marines who are part of a BLT or MEU aboard an amphibious ship are not members of a ships company and are not a ships Marine Detachment.

I believed the Marines Sea School at MCRDSD was deactivated during the Clinton administration. This is when they started deactivating all Marine ship detachments aboard all Navy carriers and cruisers.

Marines who were part of a ships Marine detachment were easy to spot when they were going up a ladder aboard ship. The bottom of the soles of their shoes were polished with black Kiwi boot polish. It really had an impression on a swabie who was behind the Marine going up the ladder. Made them feel like landlubbers.

And now you're wrong about what I said. I said it is rare, not that it never happens. And what you posted says what I said, it happens, but it is rare because of the harsh consequences for getting caught, the lack of privacy, the availability of birth control, and many other factors. Most women who don't want to go on deployment, just get pregnant prior to the deployment, because it is a much bigger hassle on your career to get pregnant during a deployment. It isn't against any rules to get pregnant off the ship, but if you get pregnant while on a ship that hasn't hit any ports, then you're screwed (literally and figuratively).

His current enlistment is in the Navy. His sea duty was done while in the Marines, where he also did a deployment to Afghanistan and another to Iraq. Or do you not understand the difference between each enlistment period?

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

>


Could someone answer a serious question...


................... Where was the gender of the victim identified in the cases from the OP?



>>>>

It was never mentioned.

If those female sailors and LGBT sailors want to be treated equally, why should it matter what the gender of the sailor was ?

I'm pretty sure if the sailor who got his feelinsg hurt by the Chief was a male sailor who was out of uniform, didn't have his shirt tucked in.
If it were a female sailor or a gay sailor or a sailor in drag, I'm sure President Obama would have had a press conference and the civilian political activist would be demanding that the Chief be tried by a general court martial.

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

And now you're wrong about what I said. I said it is rare, not that it never happens. And what you posted says what I said, it happens, but it is rare because of the harsh consequences for getting caught, the lack of privacy, the availability of birth control, and many other factors. Most women who don't want to go on deployment, just get pregnant prior to the deployment, because it is a much bigger hassle on your career to get pregnant during a deployment. It isn't against any rules to get pregnant off the ship, but if you get pregnant while on a ship that hasn't hit any ports, then you're screwed (literally and figuratively).

His current enlistment is in the Navy. His sea duty was done while in the Marines, where he also did a deployment to Afghanistan and another to Iraq. Or do you not understand the difference between each enlistment period?

Back in the Old Corps and I believe before the PC Navy, it was called shipping over and tour of duty.

 

[Thom Paine]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

............. if it is true I'm glad the sick ****s like him are out I just hope he just isn't too loud with his bull**** as he finds his way to a hopefully early grave.

Damned pathetic commentary.....

Thom Paine

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Back in the Old Corps and I believe before the PC Navy, it was called shipping over and tour of duty.

We call them enlistments. And there is a big difference between an enlistment in the Navy and an enlistment in the Marines.

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

We call them enlistments. And there is a big difference between an enlistment in the Navy and an enlistment in the Marines.

Actually we referred to reenlistments as shipping over and so did sailors before the PC Navy.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

It was never mentioned.

If those female sailors and LGBT sailors want to be treated equally, why should it matter what the gender of the sailor was ?

I'm pretty sure if the sailor who got his feelinsg hurt by the Chief was a male sailor who was out of uniform, didn't have his shirt tucked in.
If it were a female sailor or a gay sailor or a sailor in drag, I'm sure President Obama would have had a press conference and the civilian political activist would be demanding that the Chief be tried by a general court martial.

And what are you talking about? If it is a straight sailor who took an unwelcome photo of another sailor's junk or private areas, then why shouldn't he be treated equally as a gay sailor or female sailor who did it? Gender or orientation of the people involved has nothing to do with the situations you posted in the OP. Those sailors violated the UCMJ and have had their day in court for that.

And this thread isn't about the CMC/shirt thing. It is about the Courts-Martials. The CMC/shirt thing doesn't have nearly enough info with it to determine what the hell happened in the situation.

A situation for you. Senior sailor orders junior sailor to "go grab my coffee cup from lower level". Junior sailor says that is not his duty. Senior sailor strikes the junior sailor for not doing it. Should junior sailor retaliate, go get the coffee cup, or report senior sailor for assault, or just ignore it? Should it matter what gender or sexual orientation any of those involved is to make your determination for the answer?

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Actually we referred to reenlistments as shipping over and so did sailors before the PC Navy.

What? Enlistments are enlistments and it has nothing to do with being PC, and everything to do with, if there is a difference, just a change in terms. It isn't about being PC. It is semantics. It is you trying to change what I said and find fault because you want to complain.

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

And what are you talking about? If it is a straight sailor who took an unwelcome photo of another sailor's junk or private areas, then why shouldn't he be treated equally as a gay sailor or female sailor who did it? Gender or orientation of the people involved has nothing to do with the situations you posted in the OP. Those sailors violated the UCMJ and have had their day in court for that.

And this thread isn't about the CMC/shirt thing. It is about the Courts-Martial. The CMC/shirt thing doesn't have nearly enough info with it to determine what the hell happened in the situation.

A situation for you. Senior sailor orders junior sailor to "go grab my coffee cup from lower level". Junior sailor says that is not his duty. Senior sailor strikes the junior sailor for not doing it. Should junior sailor retaliate, go get the coffee cup, or report senior sailor for assault, or just ignore it? Should it matter what gender or sexual orientation any of those involved is to make your determination for the answer?

The jr. sailor should be grateful that he wasn't standing before the man for insubordination.

And the Navy is still drinking that PC dumbed down coffee ? Probably before your time but it was in the late 70's right after the "New Left" gained control of the Democrat Party and they demanded that the Navy dumb down their coffee. They didn't like that the U.S. military had cornered the Columbian coffee market. The libs believed that those wearing the uniform shouldn't be drinking 100 % Columbian coffee paid by the tax payers.

Yes, the topic of this thread is to show how many court martials are taking place that are related to sexual assaults or sexual misconduct. A problem that didn't exist before liberal social engineering of our military.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

The jr. sailor should be grateful that he wasn't standing before the man for insubordination.

And the Navy is still drinking that PC dumbed down coffee ? Probably before your time but it was in the late 70's right after the "New Left" gained control of the Democrat Party and they demanded that the Navy dumb down their coffee. They didn't like that the U.S. military had cornered the Columbian coffee market. The libs believed that those wearing the uniform shouldn't be drinking 100 % Columbian coffee paid by the tax payers.

Yes, the topic of this thread is to show how many court martials are taking place that are related to sexual assaults or sexual misconduct. A problem that didn't exist before liberal social engineering of our military.

Seriously? You think it is okay to order a junior sailor to get your coffee and then assault him because he refused to obey an unlawful (yes, unlawful) order? That is just plain bull. And against the UCMJ. It is wrong to assault a junior sailor that is simply refusing to be your servant because you are too lazy to go down the stairs yourself and retrieve your own damned coffee cup after watch. And no, they would not go to mast for simply telling the senior sailor that it isn't their job to do that. (Oh, and just for a reference, yes, this happened, the senior sailor was a woman, the junior a man, and the woman eventually got put out of the Navy for refusing to take required vaccines. Everyone in the department was quite happy that she was so stupid. The incident didn't come to light until she almost got in trouble for assaulting another sailor with a pair of shears, cutting his leg open in the process.)

But yes, sexual misconduct was absolutely a problem that existed long before any women were allowed on ships or gays were allowed to serve openly. The difference is that now that problem can be addressed instead of just swept under a rug and the military can't pretend that sailors, soldiers, Marines, or airmen would never sexually assault people or that gay people don't serve their country just as well as straight people.

 

[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Seriously? You think it is okay to order a junior sailor to get your coffee and then assault him because he refused to obey an unlawful (yes, unlawful) order? That is just plain bull.

No, I would have him burning #### from dawn to dusk. After that he would be filling sand bags. Then walking point in the bush. :lol:

The way it works, if you're not doing something that needs to be done, make yourself scarce so you aren't told to get someone a cup of coffee.

If your not busy doing military things, at least look like you're doing military things. If you can't handle that, at least carry a clipboard in your hand so it looks like you're doing something.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

No, I would have him burning #### from dawn to dusk. After that he would be filling sand bags. Then walking point in the bush. :lol:

The way it works, if you're not doing something that needs to be done, make yourself scarce so you aren't told to get someone a cup of coffee.

If your not busy doing military things, at least look like you're doing military things. If you can't handle that, at least carry a clipboard in your hand so it looks like you're doing something.

No, they were getting off of watch or cleaning the space. Either way, you can get your own damned coffee. It is not the responsibility of your junior sailors to get you coffee. If you want to ask them to get you coffee, sure. But demanding they do is not a lawful order and they can absolutely refuse to do it for you. And if you assault them or punish them for not following your unlawful order that comes from your own laziness and disrespect of them, then you deserve punishment for that.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Were those aircraft larger than a C-130 ?

OK, to large to land without having to clear the rest of the Airwing off the deck. LOL


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[APACHERAT]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

OK, to large to land without having to clear the rest of the Airwing off the deck. LOL


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Did you operat out of Moffett field ?

 

[WorldWatcher]

Re: Navy's Special and General Courts-Martial for the Month of August & A Gay Questio

Did you operat out of Moffett field ?

No, that's the anti-submarine version. I flew in the electronic warfare version.

NAS Agana, Guam was our homebase (they've moved since then to Washington) and we operated throughout the Asian, Indian, and Middle East theaters.



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