NATO allies are facing off in the Eastern Mediterranean. The conflict could entangle entire region.

[Metric Mouse]

NATO allies are facing off in the Mediterranean. The conflict could engulf the entire region - CNN

In a show of solidarity with Greece, France said it will boost its military presence in the Eastern Mediterranean in response to Turkey's hydrocarbon exploration and sent in fighter jets and warships to the Greek island of Crete in mid-August.

The territorial dispute between Turkey, Greece and the divided island of Cyprus has been rumbling regionally for years. But, "the region's offshore natural gas resources have changed everything [in the eastern Mediterranean] over the course of the past five years," says Michael Tanchum, a senior fellow at the Austrian Institute for European and Security Studies. This has turned it into "a key battleground in which larger geopolitical fault lines involving the EU and the Middle East and North Africa region converge," he added.

Is this 2020 or 1920. Wow.

 

[Oborosen]

NATO allies are facing off in the Mediterranean. The conflict could engulf the entire region - CNN



Is this 2020 or 1920. Wow.

I guess we'll just need to keep our eyes on this for now and see how things unfold. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail here.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Oh good, because that region of the world needs yet more reason for conflict... :roll:

 

[TomFitz]

NATO allies are facing off in the Mediterranean. The conflict could engulf the entire region - CNN



Is this 2020 or 1920. Wow.

In the absence of a strong hand on the tiller of the fading Western Alliance, this is inevitable.

As the US retreats into isolationism, which is the Trump Administration’s signature foreign policy, the rest of the world shatters and splinters.

 

[Tangmo]

Last year Exxon made the discovery of the largest gas field in the world of 2019 off Crete while defying feeble attempts by the Turkish Navy to blockade the drilling zone. The attempted Turkish Navy blockade of drilling was foiled by warships from Greece and France operating jointly. As noted in the OP France has positioned jet fighters on Crete so it is clear France is the Nato point man on this one.

The bottom line is that Turkey is facing a new East Med alliance of Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Israel, Egypt, EU, USA while Putin is for his own twisted reasons twisting Erdogan's arm against Erdogan sending troops to Libya and into Syria.

Nato says Turkey is acting inconsistently with the Charter -- in Libya now too -- yet the Nato member states are taking the regular diplomatic route of waiting out the electoral failure of the offending government, in this case Erdogan. Indeed Erdogan has suddenly lost elections in Ankara and Istanbul that had been long time party strongholds, the Lira has lost half its value since 2018 and his economy continues to suck dates.

Washington and Pentagon have always considered Greece as a principal geostrategic and civilizational factor as we recall Truman took a strong stand against communist insurgents in Greece right after WW II, citing Greece as one of the four global centers of ancient civilization (Greece, Egypt, India, China) from where virtually all originated to include democracy in the United States via Europe, ie, the French Revolution. Chinese who hold fast always to their original and unchanging ancient values still have no clue about the French and American revolutions btw.

Nato members USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany among others have ceased selling military weapons, equipment, spare parts and so on to Turkey given Erdogan and his political party are inconsistent with Nato values as stated in the Charter. Nato is no longer training Turkish forces in Turkey. As Erdogan continues to isolate Turkey the voters continue to express their disapproval.

 

[snakestretcher]

Last year Exxon made the discovery of the largest gas field in the world of 2019 off Crete while defying feeble attempts by the Turkish Navy to blockade the drilling zone. The attempted Turkish Navy blockade of drilling was foiled by warships from Greece and France operating jointly. As noted in the OP France has positioned jet fighters on Crete so it is clear France is the Nato point man on this one.

The bottom line is that Turkey is facing a new East Med alliance of Greece, Crete, Cyprus, Israel, Egypt, EU, USA while Putin is for his own twisted reasons twisting Erdogan's arm against Erdogan sending troops to Libya and into Syria.

Nato says Turkey is acting inconsistently with the Charter -- in Libya now too -- yet the Nato member states are taking the regular diplomatic route of waiting out the electoral failure of the offending government, in this case Erdogan. Indeed Erdogan has suddenly lost elections in Ankara and Istanbul that had been long time party strongholds, the Lira has lost half its value since 2018 and his economy continues to suck dates.

Washington and Pentagon have always considered Greece as a principal geostrategic and civilizational factor as we recall Truman took a strong stand against communist insurgents in Greece right after WW II, citing Greece as one of the four global centers of ancient civilization (Greece, Egypt, India, China) from where virtually all originated to include democracy in the United States via Europe, ie, the French Revolution. Chinese who hold fast always to their original and unchanging ancient values still have no clue about the French and American revolutions btw.

Nato members USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany among others have ceased selling military weapons, equipment, spare parts and so on to Turkey given Erdogan and his political party are inconsistent with Nato values as stated in the Charter. Nato is no longer training Turkish forces in Turkey. As Erdogan continues to isolate Turkey the voters continue to express their disapproval.

Excellent appraisal.

 

[Metric Mouse]

In the absence of a strong hand on the tiller of the fading Western Alliance, this is inevitable.

As the US retreats into isolationism, which is the Trump Administration’s signature foreign policy, the rest of the world shatters and splinters.

As the article points out, Germany was unable to calm the situation despite its best efforts.

It is interesting to watch from afar as the world readjusts to the fact that the United States is less interested in meddling in general world affairs that don't interest it. It could very well be that the Pax Americana of the last 70 years was a historical anomaly.

 

[Oborosen]

As the article points out, Germany was unable to calm the situation despite its best efforts.

It is interesting to watch from afar as the world readjusts to the fact that the United States is less interested in meddling in general world affairs that don't interest it. It could very well be that the Pax Americana of the last 70 years was a historical anomaly.

To be honest, I really wish we'd stay out of everyone's affairs. Beyond helping to mediate, or be a neutral party at most. Because far too many times, we've sunk too much time, money and blood into these sort of things.

 

[snakestretcher]

As the article points out, Germany was unable to calm the situation despite its best efforts.

It is interesting to watch from afar as the world readjusts to the fact that the United States is less interested in meddling in general world affairs that don't interest it. It could very well be that the Pax Americana of the last 70 years was a historical anomaly.

"Pax Americana"? Are you serious? How many wars has America got involved in for no other reason but personal gain? How many invasions of sovereign nations, enforced regime changes, support for terrorists etc?

 

[snakestretcher]

To be honest, I really wish we'd stay out of everyone's affairs. Beyond helping to mediate, or be a neutral party at most. Because far too many times, we've sunk too much time, money and blood into these sort of things.

Yes, mostly the blood of other people in foreign countries.

The U.S. Has a Long History of Provoking Wars. Could Iran Be Next? | The New Yorker

 

[Metric Mouse]

"Pax Americana"? Are you serious? How many wars has America got involved in for no other reason but personal gain? How many invasions of sovereign nations, enforced regime changes, support for terrorists etc?

Lots, but if we compare the number and scale of international conflicts of the past 75 years with the 75 years before that, one gains some perspective.

 

[Metric Mouse]

To be honest, I really wish we'd stay out of everyone's affairs. Beyond helping to mediate, or be a neutral party at most. Because far too many times, we've sunk too much time, money and blood into these sort of things.

I think that the United States is moving very quickly in that direction. It's fascinating to see how some people support that and some people vehemently argue that the United States should continue muddling up world affairs as they have been.

 

[bluesmoke]

Turkey is a key geographic region in relation to defense against Russia. The US and Europe became allies w/Turkey after WWII and sent aircraft carrier to the Turkish straits to prevent a threat of warships of Russia from entering the straits. In 1952, Turkey joined NATO. In 1960, the US promised Russian, Turkey and the world that the Gary Powers piloted spy plane taken down by Russia did not go over Turkish airspace. In 1961, one significant reason that Russian was to establish nuke missiles in Cuba was because of the missiles the US had in Turkey, and then withdrew after the Bay of Pigs debacle. In 1974, Turkey invaded and now occupies 1/3rd of Cyprus, to the objection of NATO, and thus has two geo locations on diff sides of the gas field in question. Turkey is a long-time, natural ally of Iran who both have common "enemies" in Iraq, Syria and the Kurds. Because of Erdogan's treatment of the Kurds, Obama did not meet with him when he visited the US and relations soured. After a phone call w/Trump, Erdogan was invited to a meeting and also allowed to enter Syria which allowed Turkey to further kill Kurds whom are considered terrorist by Turkey.

The Leviathan gas field is being claimed in portions by various countries while corps, many US, secure contracts to actually get the gas.

 

[Oborosen]

Yes, mostly the blood of other people in foreign countries.

The U.S. Has a Long History of Provoking Wars. Could Iran Be Next? | The New Yorker

Hopefully we can keep pulling back from that, like we've been doing. I lost too many friends in Bush's bid against Iraq and my older brother is still serving with the marines.

 

[Oborosen]

I think that the United States is moving very quickly in that direction. It's fascinating to see how some people support that and some people vehemently argue that the United States should continue muddling up world affairs as they have been.

Yeah, people of all stripes were calling Trump unfit and unprepared until he fired his first missiles and then people from both the left, right and even in the media said that he was, and I quote:

"Acting presidential"

I was getting pretty tired of the mixed messages and all of the usual war-hawks well before this time came around.

Now we have things just falling apart no matter what is being done and I know it's off topic. But we've seen the stories coming out of N Korea and it's scary to think that Kim could be either in a coma, or even dead. Because his sister is apparently so much worse.
I felt so good about my choice to elect the man, when he walked across that DMZ with Kim and they shook hands. Talk about making history.

 

[Tangmo]

As the article points out, Germany was unable to calm the situation despite its best efforts.

It is interesting to watch from afar as the world readjusts to the fact that the United States is less interested in meddling in general world affairs that don't interest it. It could very well be that the Pax Americana of the last 70 years was a historical anomaly.

Going into the 21st century it's become a multipolar world and that's fact.

USA continues to dominate and has taken to knocking back the Dictator Tyrants in Beijing in their grandiose ambitions and eternally Chinese notions. USA will continue to be allied formally with Europe and Japan to include formal defense treaty allies in East Asia, namely, South Korea, Australia/NZ, Philippines, Thailand with Singapore as one of three countries of the region authorized to purchase the F-35 (Japan, SK, SPRE)...plus Taiwan and a dozen small island nations in the western Pacific from WW II and where the US bases weapons, equipment etc to include the US Territory of Guam. Vietnam is a base of equipment, materials, ordinance of the USA and recently reconstructed Cam Ranh Bay naval facility to accommodate US aircraft carriers that have already made their first visits, following the example of Singapore.

Russia proves yet again it is smarter, more capable and virulent than the Chinese by establishing the Republican Party and America's neolithic Conservatives into a Trojan Horse in the United States. This election and its subsequent course will terminate that, in one Constitutional way or the other.

Since 2015 India is signed on as a "Strategic Partner" of the US which means US forces have use of all India military bases on request to include for operations against a third country. Iran remains the key to South Central Asia and Asia Minor yet it is not an effective competitor against the United States either singularly or joined with Russia, Turkey.

The US was before Trump exiting the business of small wars here and there and scattered about under brigade headquarters to restructure and reorganize the armed forces to the concentrated division level capable of fighting comprehensively and in great force against a large force of a near peer strategic opponent. Pentagon and Congress are reorganizing and restructuring the Army and the National Guard into 18 divisions ready to deploy instead of the present 10 divisions. Recall the US military expertise as demonstrated during the 20th century is to win big wars. This was shown somewhat in Desert Storm and in Iraq again in March-April 2003.

Pax Americana Redux.

 

[Logophile]

I think that the United States is moving very quickly in that direction. It's fascinating to see how some people support that and some people vehemently argue that the United States should continue muddling up world affairs as they have been.

Well, we may not be able to. The Greek-Turkey conflict is small potatoes compared the the China-Taiwan stand off. We may be shaking our heads at Hong Kong, but Taiwan will not fall to China. It's really heating up there. From today: 'Polishing the gun': China, U.S. tensions raise Taiwan conflict fears - Reuters

In the last three weeks, China has announced four separate exercises along its coast, from the Bohai Gulf in the north to the East and Yellow Seas and South China Sea, along with other exercises it said were aimed at “the current security situation across the Taiwan Strait”.

Meanwhile Taiwan, claimed by China as its “sacred” territory, said its surface-to-air missiles had tracked approaching Chinese fighters - details Taiwan does not normally give - as U.S. Health Secretary Alex Azar was visiting the island this month.

Addressing the Chinese exercises, Taiwan’s defence ministry said on Tuesday the closer Chinese jets get to the island the “more actively” Taipei would respond, though it would “not escalate conflict” nor “trigger an incident”.

The United States sent another warship through the Taiwan Strait this month, a few days after a U.S. carrier group conducted an exercise in the disputed South China Sea, and this week China complained a U.S. spy plane had observed Chinese live-fire exercises.

Chinese military expert Ni Lexiong, a retired professor at the Shanghai University of Political Science and Law, said it was very rare and possibly the first time multiple Chinese exercises were taking place at the same time.

“By simultaneously conducting drills in the three seas, it means China is testing its ability to fight enemies coming from three directions at the same time - for example from Taiwan, from Japan and from the U.S. from the south,” he said.

“Historically, frequent drills are a clear predictor of war.”

 

[Higgins86]

Turkey won't push their luck in Cyprus. There is a reason why they stopped where they did last time and that reason is the British military bases.

 

[Tigerace117]

"Pax Americana"? Are you serious? How many wars has America got involved in for no other reason but personal gain? How many invasions of sovereign nations, enforced regime changes, support for terrorists etc?

Poor Saddam and the Taliban, just minding their own business slaughtering their own people when us evil Americans kicked them out of power. How horrific :roll:

 

[snakestretcher]

Poor Saddam and the Taliban, just minding their own business slaughtering their own people when us evil Americans kicked them out of power. How horrific :roll:

It was their business, their problem. It was a war built on lies and an opportunistic grab for oil, and today's 'democratic' Iraq is a joke. By the way did anyone ask the Iraqi people if they wanted democracy imposed on them by a foreign power?

The truth about Iraq’s democracy - Atlantic Council

 

[Tigerace117]

It was their business, their problem. It was a war built on lies and an opportunistic grab for oil, and today's 'democratic' Iraq is a joke. By the way did anyone ask the Iraqi people if they wanted democracy imposed on them by a foreign power?

The truth about Iraq’s democracy - Atlantic Council

Ah yes, the old delusion that people in the Third World don’t want democracy and therefore supporting tyrants like Saddam is a-okay. What a load of crap.

We get most of our oil from countries like Canada and Nigeria. If it was really “all about oil” Maduro would be in The Hague right now and US boots would be in Caracas. The oil conspiracy theory is blatantly lazy at best.

The idea that massacres and borderline genocide— like the Taliban were committing against the Hazara— are “only their problem” is pretty pathetic.

 

[snakestretcher]

Ah yes, the old delusion that people in the Third World don’t want democracy and therefore supporting tyrants like Saddam is a-okay. What a load of crap.

We get most of our oil from countries like Canada and Nigeria. If it was really “all about oil” Maduro would be in The Hague right now and US boots would be in Caracas. The oil conspiracy theory is blatantly lazy at best.

The idea that massacres and borderline genocide— like the Taliban were committing against the Hazara— are “only their problem” is pretty pathetic.

They were not asked. Is imposing democracy on a nation that never knew it or asked for it actually democracy? No, not even close. As for supporting tyrants that's another area of US expertise, so quit the hypocritical outrage. Remember Iran, 1953? A democracy deposed by the FBI to be replaced by a murderous, US-friendly dictator, enthusiastically endorsed by America.

Washington’s Incoherent Policy Towards Dictators | Cato Institute

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America - Wikipedia

 

[Tigerace117]

They were not asked. Is imposing democracy on a nation that never knew it or asked for it actually democracy? No, not even close. As for supporting tyrants that's another area of US expertise, so quit the hypocritical outrage. Remember Iran, 1953? A democracy deposed by the FBI to be replaced by a murderous, US-friendly dictator, enthusiastically endorsed by America.

Washington’s Incoherent Policy Towards Dictators | Cato Institute

United States involvement in regime change in Latin America - Wikipedia

Oh look, a classical case of whataboutism. Do you actually think that “regime change” in Latin America means the US can never support democracy? Nobody polled the folks in Nazi Germany if they wanted democracy either; should we have just left poor poorroll Hitler alone then?

The fact of the matter is that anyone who opposed Saddam died. Badly. In lots and lots of pain. He was a psychotic thug who ran the country into the ground, and just about everyone who don’t personally profit from the massacres he committed was ecstatic to see him go.

I do remember the British Empire convincing the US that Mosaddegh(who was getting rather comfortable with the Tudeh) was a major threat.......but again, that’s another case of whataboutism which has nothing to do with supporting democracy. Not that the FBI had anything to do with it, but I get that to a knee jerk anti American we all look alike :lol:

In short, your argument that Iraqis don’t deserve democracy because they “never knew it” is pretty laughable.

 

[snakestretcher]

Oh look, a classical case of whataboutism. Do you actually think that “regime change” in Latin America means the US can never support democracy? Nobody polled the folks in Nazi Germany if they wanted democracy either; should we have just left poor poorroll Hitler alone then?

The fact of the matter is that anyone who opposed Saddam died. Badly. In lots and lots of pain. He was a psychotic thug who ran the country into the ground, and just about everyone who don’t personally profit from the massacres he committed was ecstatic to see him go.

I do remember the British Empire convincing the US that Mosaddegh(who was getting rather comfortable with the Tudeh) was a major threat.......but again, that’s another case of whataboutism which has nothing to do with supporting democracy. Not that the FBI had anything to do with it, but I get that to a knee jerk anti American we all look alike :lol:

In short, your argument that Iraqis don’t deserve democracy because they “never knew it” is pretty laughable.

The FBI had nothing to do with overthrowing Mossadegh?

 

[snakestretcher]

Oh look, a classical case of whataboutism. Do you actually think that “regime change” in Latin America means the US can never support democracy? Nobody polled the folks in Nazi Germany if they wanted democracy either; should we have just left poor poorroll Hitler alone then?

The fact of the matter is that anyone who opposed Saddam died. Badly. In lots and lots of pain. He was a psychotic thug who ran the country into the ground, and just about everyone who don’t personally profit from the massacres he committed was ecstatic to see him go.

I do remember the British Empire convincing the US that Mosaddegh(who was getting rather comfortable with the Tudeh) was a major threat.......but again, that’s another case of whataboutism which has nothing to do with supporting democracy. Not that the FBI had anything to do with it, but I get that to a knee jerk anti American we all look alike :lol:

In short, your argument that Iraqis don’t deserve democracy because they “never knew it” is pretty laughable.

Sorry, that should read CIA. And yes, they were neck deep in the overthrow as declassified documents prove.