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Nationalism Vs Patriotism

Geoist

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?
 

jamesrage

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?
It depends which definition of nationalism you are using.One part of the definition of nationalism is synonymous with patriotism. The other part of nationalism is where you put your nation's interests above the interests of other countries,another part of nationalism is national advancement or independence. Then there is excessive patriotism.

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com


na·tion·al·ism
[nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-] Show IPA

noun
1.
spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.

2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.

3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.

4.
the desire for national advancement or political independence.

5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
 

Andalublue

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?
Patriotism with a sense of superiority = nationalism, in my book. Patriotism isn't therefore an evil in itself, but it's a prerequisite for it. Nationalism is the most dangerous of ideologies because it appears to be the most widespread. You can have liberal, conservative, fascist, communist or theocratic nationalism and they all spell trouble.
 

Andalublue

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It depends which definition of nationalism you are using.One part of the definition of nationalism is synonymous with patriotism. The other part of nationalism is where you put your nation's interests above the interests of other countries,another part of nationalism is national advancement or independence. Then there is excessive patriotism.

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com


na·tion·al·ism
[nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-] Show IPA

noun
1.
spirit or aspirations common to the whole of a nation.

2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism.

3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.

4.
the desire for national advancement or political independence.

5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
I started thinking that patriotism and nationalism were just synonyms, but I don't think that's true. I don't believe that devotion and loyalty to your country is necessarily nationalistic. I think nationalism requires something more, some sense of seeing your own nation as superior or more important. In that sense I think Dictionary.com has that second definition wrong, because it's only a partial description. It's like describing water at room temperature as 'liquid'. It is liquid, of course it is, but it's not the only kind of liquid and it's a specific kind of liquid, therefore water ≠ liquid. Nationalism ≠ patriotism.
 
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DaveFagan

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?

To me excessive Nationalism is synonymous with the "Drums of War." A bad thing and there is a lot of it in the USA today. "Blind Patriotism" is the other well used description that also fits. The ignorance of youth and, that's why soldiers are young, is full of blind patriotism and hopefully matures into patriotism with a strong moral/ethical foundation. "Hope springs eternal."
 

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Patriotism with a sense of superiority = nationalism, in my book. Patriotism isn't therefore an evil in itself, but it's a prerequisite for it. Nationalism is the most dangerous of ideologies because it appears to be the most widespread. You can have liberal, conservative, fascist, communist or theocratic nationalism and they all spell trouble.
That is true. Further people here confuse the two meanings of the word and I fall for this confusion.

They claim that both I and my country is nationalistic. From hearing the confusion between nationalism and patriotism all the time (with the difference mentioned in your post) I take it they mean that I and my country are patriotic, which is true! We are patriotic for otherwise we could not survive what we did survive for 2 millenniums. So I reply "Ok, yes we are nationalistic!" Thinking that I am answering it in a correct format for patriotism.

But this then tends to backfire for there are people who truly know the difference between the two notions. The ones that truly know the difference between nationalism and patriotism (with your definition) then attach wrong meanings to me and my country that we are nationalists (i.e., "higher than all others") which is impractical, impossible, and probably the furthest from truth as it can be.

We have a word in Albanian that is "Atdhedashuria" which is a single name made from the union of three other names "Atë" (i.e., "Father"), "Dhe" (i.e., "Land"), and "Dashuria" (i.e., "Love/Wanting"). So basically is love for one's fatherland. This is not a nationalistic concept but it is closer to patriotism. Just by loving one's fatherland it does not has connotations that the fatherland is neither higher nor alone with other people's fatherlands. Other people's fatherlands cooperate with those of ours and are equals in the world/club.

But simply I love my country somewhat more cause I live here. But there are other countries that I would also do my best to help, contribute, and even fight along if necessary. Hence, this is the kind of patriotism that we here identify with compared to nationalism that people may think that we are.
 

spud_meister

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I'm a nationalist, I'm a liberal nationalist, I believe my country is the best, and stop there. Nationalism is only a problem if combined with racism or xenophobia, the idea that only a certain type of person can be a citizen.
 

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?
I am fiercely anti nationalist, and therefore have to reject both. They both promote superiority complexes amongst otherwise rational people towards others.

One has to reject the notion of a 'nation' and embrace the whole of Humanity, or humanism. I am not more proud to be Canadian that Chris Hadfield was commander of the ISS, I am more proud as a Human that Humanity is capable of such things.
 

Juiposa

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While I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with patriotism (admiration for one's country and its values), I think we use the term too loosely. Nationalism can best describe the attitude of many Americans (and people of other countries) when they claim to be 'patriotic.' For example, saying "my country, right or wrong" is definitely a nationalist attitude, rather than a patriotic one. Thoughts?
I am fiercely anti nationalist, and therefore have to reject both. They both promote superiority complexes amongst otherwise rational people towards others.

One has to reject the notion of a 'nation' and embrace the whole of Humanity, or humanism. I am not more proud to be Canadian that Chris Hadfield was commander of the ISS, I am more proud as a Human that Humanity is capable of such things.
 

Andalublue

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I'm a nationalist, I'm a liberal nationalist, I believe my country is the best, and stop there. Nationalism is only a problem if combined with racism or xenophobia, the idea that only a certain type of person can be a citizen.
Unfortunately you didn't stop soon enough. The two bolded bits are one and the same thing.
 

spud_meister

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Unfortunately you didn't stop soon enough. The two bolded bits are one and the same thing.
Not really. I don't believe any person should be denied Australian citizenship, I don't believe Australians are inherently better, I simply believe Australia has the most potential due to political history and geography. We need to improve, but we've the best system in place to improve. If that makes sense, I'm a bit drunk. :lol:
 

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Geoist

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It depends which definition of nationalism you are using.One part of the definition of nationalism is synonymous with patriotism. The other part of nationalism is where you put your nation's interests above the interests of other countries,another part of nationalism is national advancement or independence. Then there is excessive patriotism.
There is certainly a line that is blurred between the two. From my experience, though, people generally refer to patriotism as a sort of passive pride in one's country while nationalism is the more extreme/aggressive version of patriotism. I guess that is why even the "my country right or wrong" crowds prefer referring to themselves as "patriots" while we tend to refer to those types in other countries as "nationalists."
 

Geoist

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Nationalism is only a problem if combined with racism or xenophobia, the idea that only a certain type of person can be a citizen.
It is also a problem when a nationalist thinks their government could do no wrong. That every war/policy should not be questioned and should be supported fervently.
 

Geoist

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I am fiercely anti nationalist, and therefore have to reject both. They both promote superiority complexes amongst otherwise rational people towards others.

One has to reject the notion of a 'nation' and embrace the whole of Humanity, or humanism. I am not more proud to be Canadian that Chris Hadfield was commander of the ISS, I am more proud as a Human that Humanity is capable of such things.
I generally agree with your statement. I have gone back and forth on my own personal feelings towards even a little bit of patriotism, but I think it is similar to feeling loyalty towards one's family. Of course, that loyalty should never be so excessive that you would even support them if they were committing a terrible crime.
 

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I generally agree with your statement. I have gone back and forth on my own personal feelings towards even a little bit of patriotism, but I think it is similar to feeling loyalty towards one's family. Of course, that loyalty should never be so excessive that you would even support them if they were committing a terrible crime.
I would be able to relate to the example of family if I was loyal to my family. My loyalty to family only goes as far as my immediate family and my grandparents. No cousin, uncle or aunt will get preferential treatment just because they are family. If I dislike a relative I will not continue to correspond and be nice because they are family.
 

Juiposa

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I generally agree with your statement. I have gone back and forth on my own personal feelings towards even a little bit of patriotism, but I think it is similar to feeling loyalty towards one's family. Of course, that loyalty should never be so excessive that you would even support them if they were committing a terrible crime.
I would be able to relate to the example of family if I was loyal to my family. My loyalty to family only goes as far as my immediate family and my grandparents. No cousin, uncle or aunt will get preferential treatment just because they are family. If I dislike a relative I will not continue to correspond and be nice because they are family.
 
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