Nationalism, good or bad ?? (1 Viewer)

[earthworm]

The search surprisingly showed nothing on nationalism....
I believe we do need more nationalism, but not excessive, remember nazi-Germany, but - a man should feel good about this country and its heritage.... Specifically, the use of English as the official language and a ban on flag burning as two examples of a part of nationalism.....I am sure that there are many more....
I think the Europeans are more nationalist than we are, we could learn from them.....

 

[jfuh]

The search surprisingly showed nothing on nationalism....
I believe we do need more nationalism, but not excessive, remember nazi-Germany, but - a man should feel good about this country and its heritage.... Specifically, the use of English as the official language and a ban on flag burning as two examples of a part of nationalism.....I am sure that there are many more....
I think the Europeans are more nationalist than we are, we could learn from them.....

It is this same nationalism of Europe and inacceptance of foreigners that also degrades Europe. Why they can never be as competitive as the US is.
The US is the only country in the world, currently, that has it's doors wide open to immigration.
Try to immigrate to Europe, nearly impossible.
Nationalism leads to arrogance, one of the many reasons that France has thier riots last year.

 

[earthworm]

Our doors are not wide open to immigration. We do and always have had quotas in place...
There is no correlation between nationalism and immigration.
So many things are misunderstood. Nationalism has been labeled with a bad name thanks to fools such as Hitler and others...

We probably do have the best way of doing things, that does not mean that improvements cannot be...

 

[nkgupta80]

Our doors are not wide open to immigration. We do and always have had quotas in place...
There is no correlation between nationalism and immigration.
So many things are misunderstood. Nationalism has been labeled with a bad name thanks to fools such as Hitler and others...

We probably do have the best way of doing things, that does not mean that improvements cannot be...

nationalism is a dying ideal in this continually globalizing world.

 

[::Major_Baker::]

banning expression in the form of a 'flag burning ban' is the antithesis of what we should be proud of in America.
nothing nationalistic about compromising the ideals that this country was founded on....FREEDOM.

 

[jamesrage]

banning expression in the form of a 'flag burning ban' is the antithesis of what we should be proud of in America.
nothing nationalistic about compromising the ideals that this country was founded on....FREEDOM.

There is nothing nationalistic about burning our flag.Seeing how nationalism is synonymous with patriotism,no flag burner is a patriot/nationalist.

 

[jamesrage]

It is this same nationalism of Europe and inacceptance of foreigners that also degrades Europe. Why they can never be as competitive as the US is.
The US is the only country in the world, currently, that has it's doors wide open to immigration.
Try to immigrate to Europe, nearly impossible.
Nationalism leads to arrogance, one of the many reasons that France has thier riots last year.

You are refering to nativism not nationalism.

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

Well, with all this talk of WW3 starting up, lord knows that a resurgence of intransigent arrogance is just the thing we need right now. Of course nationalism is a good thing! Just like everyone who questions the president is bad, and needs to shut the hell up. Let's hear it for US! The greatest people in the greatest land ever to exist!!! All that other **** that happened before, or is currently happening off to the side doesn't matter, because we're the center stage of the universe, we're the US!!! Thank God for his amazing patience for enduring all that boring bullshit while preparing the world for the coming of our awesome greatness. We're so stupendously spectacular that even the things that are less that great about our country are still really really good and much better than the best offered by any other culture that ever existed.

Sorry about going off on a tangent there, but...Yes, an increase in nationalism would be the best thing to happen to this country since George W. Bush was appointed president.

 

[jfuh]

You are refering to nativism not nationalism.

Nope Nationalism - as per Merriam Webster

1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
2 : a nationalist movement or government

Especially: a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

Most european countries all have this issue. The US does not have such an issue because it's open to all other ethnic cultural identites, there is no US cultural identity except for that of fundamental belief in freedom - that's it. To believe in freedom of expression, media, religion, ect is American culture.

Formerly it was also mentioned that the US does not have open boarders as there are quotas in places - true as that may be however, if you note my premise formerly:

The US is the only country in the world, currently, that has it's doors wide open to immigration.

That is a premise stating relativity to any other nation in the world, our boarders are quite open for immigration this is not the same on any degree to - open boarders. Which would also allow for illegal immigration.
However, on the principles of the founding fathers and of this freenation, our boarders should be even more open to legal immigration especially to talent and skill from other nations.
The current quotas only serves to limit immigration for the principle of protecting "indiginous" citizens. Sorry, but protectionism only stagnates on economic progress. If you can't compete, get out of the way. A free market resolves such issues. More competition means more jobs, that simple.

 

[jamesrage]

Nope Nationalism - as per Merriam Webster

1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
2 : a nationalist movement or government

Especially: a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=nativism

1. A sociopolitical policy, especially in the United States in the 19th century, favoring the interests of established inhabitants over those of immigrants


A immigrint can be just as much of a patriotic American as an american born citizen.

The US does not have such an issue because it's open to all other ethnic cultural identites, there is no US cultural identity except for that of fundamental belief in freedom - that's it. To believe in freedom of expression, media, religion, ect is American culture.

The USA is a mix of different cultures and people.You do not have to be born here to a patriot.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.




I find your assumption about Europe having strong sence nationalism to be false considering the alot of those european countries are members of the EU.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism, internationalism] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism]

 

[jfuh]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=nativism

1. A sociopolitical policy, especially in the United States in the 19th century, favoring the interests of established inhabitants over those of immigrants


A immigrint can be just as much of a patriotic American as an american born citizen.

AS I've said already, I'm not arguing about Nativism.

The USA is a mix of different cultures and people.You do not have to be born here to a patriot.

THat's not my argument.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

Ok, I don't understand why you're just posting the thing I posted being it's my point.

I find your assumption about Europe having strong sence nationalism to be false considering the alot of those european countries are members of the EU.

THat's your finding based on what? EU is an economic entity, not political. See about nationals of non-EU nations trying to immigrate to EU nations. In the case of European countries, thier nationalism is also thier nativism. As is the concept of. To be French, you need to be French first - speaking only French, acting, talking, walking, and dressing French.
American? Just love freedom.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism, internationalism] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism]

I point to your own reference number 2 here, which agrees with my premise.

the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism, internationalism]

So again, no, we do not need a nationalist movment in this country. And yes it's quite bad as most nationalist ideologies end up leading to arrogance and intolerance. Know a country today that is highly nationalistic?
N. Korea

 

[hipsterdufus]

The search surprisingly showed nothing on nationalism....
I believe we do need more nationalism, but not excessive, remember nazi-Germany, but - a man should feel good about this country and its heritage.... Specifically, the use of English as the official language and a ban on flag burning as two examples of a part of nationalism.....I am sure that there are many more....
I think the Europeans are more nationalist than we are, we could learn from them.....

Good topic. Excessive nationalism can be very harmful, and is certainly one element on a path to facism.

We see a lot of that these days in the US.

It's the whole "America:love it or leave it" , lemming mentality that is harmful. The kind of Nationalism is akin to how a two year old feels about his mom - unconditional acceptance.

The authoritarian model is also in play here. How can basically good people put aside their morals to torture people? spy on US citizens? cut benefits for the poor?

A healthy Nationalism is to be proud of your country but to see it for what it is, and to continually work to try to make it better.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Nationalism sucks. It's really just dignified segregation of people.

 

[jamesrage]

Nationalism sucks. It's really just dignified segregation of people.

So you also think patriotism sucks too since it is synonymous with nationalism?

 

[jamesrage]

I point to your own reference number 2 here, which agrees with my premise.
So again, no, we do not need a nationalist movment in this country. And yes it's quite bad as most nationalist ideologies end up leading to arrogance and intolerance. Know a country today that is highly nationalistic?
N. Korea

North Koreans are just brainwashed.It is not really nationalism.

 

[jfuh]

North Koreans are just brainwashed.It is not really nationalism.

Brainwashed with nationalist propaganda.

 

[Kandahar]

So you also think patriotism sucks too since it is synonymous with nationalism?

Yes. Patriotism is idiotic for the same reason already mentioned about nationalism.

 

[Kandahar]

North Koreans are just brainwashed.It is not really nationalism.

Care to explain that distinction? Anyone who is a nationalist is brainwashed, regardless of what country they live in. Brainwashed by government in North Korea, brainwashed by popular culture in the United States.

 

[jamesrage]

Yes. Patriotism is idiotic for the same reason already mentioned about nationalism.

So you do not beleave in dovotion to your country?Unpatriotic is synonymous with disloyal.

Disloyal is defined as (dictionary.com)

disloyal

adj 1: showing lack of love for your country [syn: unpatriotic] [ant: patriotic] 2: deserting your allegiance or duty to leader or cause or principle; "disloyal aides revealed his indiscretions to the papers" [ant: loyal]



Why do you believe loyalty to your country is a bad thing?And you wonder why alot of conservatives think liberals are anti-american.

Care to explain that distinction? Anyone who is a nationalist is brainwashed, regardless of what country they live in. Brainwashed by government in North Korea, brainwashed by popular culture in the United States.

So someone having loyalty and love for thier country means they are brainwashed?

Why do you hate this country?
How long have you been anti-American?
Are Benedict Arnold and Theodore Hall your heroes?

 

[Kandahar]

So you do not beleave in dovotion to your country?

No. Why should I be more devoted to a stranger 4,000 miles away in Alaska than to a stranger 4,000 miles away in Europe or Latin America or Africa?

Unpatriotic is synonymous with disloyal.

Disloyal is defined as (dictionary.com)

You and your silly dictionary definitions. You have no regard for context, which makes you a buffoon.

Why do you believe loyalty to your country is a bad thing?

Because countries are run by human beings, and human beings are often wrong.

And you wonder why alot of conservatives think liberals are anti-american.

I'm not the one of the two of us trying to undermine nearly every single value that the United States of America was founded on.

So someone having loyalty and love for thier country means they are brainwashed?

Yes, absolutely. What is the fundamental difference between THIS country and any other? There is nothing special about this country or the people of this country. I guarantee you that if North Korea had an American-style government and American values (which you clearly hate), North Korea would be a booming success. Conversely, if the United States had a North Korean-style government and values, the United States would be an abysmal failure.

What exactly are you advocating when you say you "have loyalty for this country" or "love this country"? Is this just a meaningless cliche?

Why do you hate this country?

There's a big difference between not loving a country and hating a country. I don't have any particular feelings for pieces of land.

How long have you been anti-American?
Are Benedict Arnold and Theodore Hall your heroes?

See above. I'm not the one of the two of us trying to undermine nearly every American value.

 

[jamesrage]

No. Why should I be more devoted to a stranger 4,000 miles away in Alaska than to a stranger 4,000 miles away in Europe or Latin America or Africa?

So you think of your country as a stranger?

You and your silly dictionary definitions.

And you have the audacity to say that someone sounds like a buffoon.

This is what you sounds like when you mock someone for using a dictionary.

Kandahar:"THat thare fellah is using thems fancy dictionaries all full of fancy words,curse him"



Because countries are run by human beings, and human beings are often wrong.

I'm not the one of the two of us trying to undermine nearly every single value that the United States of America was founded on.

So your are trying to tell me that Goerge Washington wanted Abortion,gay marriage,and flag burning?

Originally Posted by jamesrage
So someone having loyalty and love for thier country means they are brainwashed?

Yes, absolutely. What is the fundamental difference between THIS country and any other? There is nothing special about this country or the people of this country. I guarantee you that if North Korea had an American-style government and American values (which you clearly hate), North Korea would be a booming success. Conversely, if the United States had a North Korean-style government and values, the United States would be an abysmal failure.

Yes folks see it here, see how a leftist thinks loyalty to his country is stupid.

What exactly are you advocating when you say you "have loyalty for this country" or "love this country"? Is this just a meaningless cliche?

I have loyalty to this country and I also have love for this country.

There's a big difference between not loving a country and hating a country. I don't have any particular feelings for pieces of land.

There is no fence sitting on this issue,you either hate this country or you love this country.

See above. I'm not the one of the two of us trying to undermine nearly every American value.

You seem to think loyalty to this country is stupid,Theodore Hall and Benedict Arnold also thought that too.

 

[jfuh]

So someone having loyalty and love for thier country means they are brainwashed?

That is what you need to prove James. N. Korea spread nationalist propaganda, that its citizens must be unconditionally loyal to the state (as did the USSR). Yet your claim maintains that there is a distinction to be made with the nationalistic propaganda of N. Korea.
Thus in order to proceed with the argument you first prove that what N. Korea does is not nationalistic, is not calling upon nationalism.
Here're some sources that support my claim that N. Korea is very nationalistic. Thus indeed, nationalistic overtures are just that, brainwashing - as anti-freedom (hence anti-american) as you can get.

http://www.country-studies.com/north-korea/korean-nationalism-and-communism.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prominent_figures_in_nationalism
In the wiki article are prominent ppl of nationalism - note Former N. Korean dictator Kim Il Sun is there? Mussolinni, Franco and oh wow, Hitler too. Even Hugo Chávez of Venezuela.

I don't think it get's any more anti-freedom then that.
So why are you proposing for something so anti-american?
So allow me to borrow your own words that you so quickly jumped to with Kandahar.

Why do you hate this country?
How long have you been anti-American?
Are Kim Il-Sun, Mussolinni and Hitler your heroes?
+ 1
Why do you advocate facism (extreeme nationalism)?

 

[jfuh]

Yes folks see it here, see how a leftist thinks loyalty to his country is stupid.

I have loyalty to this country and I also have love for this country.

There is no fence sitting on this issue,you either hate this country or you love this country.

You seem to think loyalty to this country is stupid,Theodore Hall and Benedict Arnold also thought that too.

There's a big variance between loyalty, and blind and absolute loyalty.
You have yet to make the distinction that nationalism is not brain washing.

 

[jamesrage]

That is what you need to prove James. N. Korea spread nationalist propaganda, that its citizens must be unconditionally loyal to the state (as did the USSR). Yet your claim maintains that there is a distinction to be made with the nationalistic propaganda of N. Korea.

North Korea is a commuinist dictatorship, Kim Jong-il rules his country with a iron first.Up until a few years The North Koreans used to blast propaganda across the DMZ with huge speakers.


These people are brainwashed
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/northkorea/thestory.html
The soldier points out North Korean "jammers," which block foreign radio and television broadcasts. "So they have no idea of what actually goes on in the outside world," says the soldier. "They think that a BMW is manufactured by North Korea."

Before leaving for North Korea, Anderson meets in Seoul with a group of North Korean refugees who had fled from famine and political repression. "The moment a child utters a word they start him on ideological training," one refugee says. "So they can't think for themselves."

snip..

Anderson's obligatory first stop is an enormous statue of the "Great Leader," where he is told to place flowers and bow.

snip..

In a giant indoor stadium, Anderson views 100,000 performers doing elaborate card stunts and choreographed marching routines in praise of the Great Leader and blaming the United States for preventing the reunification of Korea.

 

[Kandahar]

So you think of your country as a stranger?

English must not be your first language...

Let's try this again, real slow. Why should I care any more about the welfare of some random person in Alaska than I do about the welfare of some random person in France or Argentina or Ghana?

And you have the audacity to say that someone sounds like a buffoon.

This is what you sounds like when you mock someone for using a dictionary.

Kandahar:"THat thare fellah is using thems fancy dictionaries all full of fancy words,curse him"

You simply do not understand context. At all.

So your are trying to tell me that Goerge Washington wanted Abortion,gay marriage,and flag burning?

If George Washington was anything like the other powerful people of his day, he didn't have any problem with abortion. I imagine that he would, however, have quite a big problem with someone strapping a bomb to themselves and walking into a legal medical facility, as you have advocated in other threads.

George Washington certainly supported equality...for white property-owning men. The definition of equality has simply expanded since then, and it's still what I would call an American value.

George Washington certainly had no problem with flag-burning, as he favored an absolute right to freedom of speech. And it's not like there's some sudden flag-burning epidemic that the Founding Fathers couldn't possibly have forseen when they were writing the Constitution.

Yes folks see it here, see how a leftist thinks loyalty to his country is stupid.

Completely irrelevant to anything I just wrote.

I have loyalty to this country and I also have love for this country.

You didn't answer the question. What exactly does that mean, if it isn't a meaningless cliche?

There is no fence sitting on this issue,you either hate this country or you love this country.

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard since...umm...the last time you topped yourself.

Do you love or hate Bhutan? How about Mali? French Polynesia? C'mon now, no fence-sitting.

You seem to think loyalty to this country is stupid,Theodore Hall and Benedict Arnold also thought that too.

Loyalty to countries IN GENERAL is stupid, whether it's the United States or North Korea. That is completely separate from willfully betraying national security.