Name one thing that blacks and whites each need to do to help end racism.

[Infinite Chaos]

Oh yes. Social mobility is often different than anecdote might indicate. The US is not doing as well as it might and probably not as well as it did in the past. The factors governing this would be interesting, but are largely not part of your study or the following one. Take a look at the numbers here and focus on the numbers that drop (Table 1, below). http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re...-sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf
Of course, the statistics are built on quintiles and that means that top income people are not as evident, as the top quintile includes higher level public servants and above. This does not make much sense, as the concentration on income from state bureaucracy is sustainable only within limited ranges, but that is socially more significant that one might at first suspect.

Also the statistics in both studies are constructed in a way that seems to mask the effect of wealth, which is probably more determinant in long term periods, than the income from work. A person will tend to inherit and then live from that income. So in cohorts with high wealth and generational transferal of that wealth, the characteristics will be quite different than where there is little wealth.

Pretty much solidifies what I was saying ~ which also throws the original poster's comment up about a superior culture and a caste driven culture. A lot of people such as him obviously fall into the category of Americans who feel that by simple hard work and effort they can change their lot in life yet they are unaware the informal caste locks him and his like in much more than people in many other western nations.

Widespread belief in one’s ability to get ahead may explain why Americans are more accepting of economic inequality than are people in other countries.

Also throws up how hard it is for all Americans in the lower pools to do anything to change their lot in life - not just the black Americans who are finding it hard to change or improve their life circumstance.

 

[kamikaze483]

Racism as a term needs to be used only for when it applies to its dictionary definition, rather than as an inflammatory response to anyone who doesn't agree with liberal principles. Black activists and liberals need to stop trying to expand the definition of racism for political gain. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of whites are not racist. Also, it is necessary to acknowledge that racism does exist on BOTH SIDES. The word "racist" has become a racial slur thrown at white people. There is a lot of anger toward white people that actually fits the definition of racism. In order for there to be meaningful and progressive dialogue, it has to be acknowledged that white people are not the only people with fault regarding racial relations.

 

[joG]

Pretty much solidifies what I was saying ~ which also throws the original poster's comment up about a superior culture and a caste driven culture. A lot of people such as him obviously fall into the category of Americans who feel that by simple hard work and effort they can change their lot in life yet they are unaware the informal caste locks him and his like in much more than people in many other western nations.



Also throws up how hard it is for all Americans in the lower pools to do anything to change their lot in life - not just the black Americans who are finding it hard to change or improve their life circumstance.

Oh. It is always difficult. But hard work, discipline and effort do increase the probability of success dramatically. Good social skills are at least as important. Together they almost guarantee a middle class position. To go further you need luck, but making it to the top 5 percent requires both the skills work and dedication as well.

Personally, I think that the social programs and civil rights mode of thinking have done more disservice to today's lower quintile than we would have ever dreamed possible. It was all meant to be helpful and fair and was with good intent in mind, but has caused the cohort to stabilize and spread. Changing the state of affairs I think is urgent but will be nearly impossible.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Oh. It is always difficult. But hard work, discipline and effort do increase the probability of success dramatically. Good social skills are at least as important. Together they almost guarantee a middle class position. To go further you need luck, but making it to the top 5 percent requires both the skills work and dedication as well.

Not really, there are plenty of studies showing that almost true social mobility exists in Scandinavian countries. Americans may believe they can get to the top or even half way but the facts in the studies you posted and I alluded to in my link disprove that.

Personally, I think that the social programs and civil rights mode of thinking have done more disservice to today's lower quintile than we would have ever dreamed possible. It was all meant to be helpful and fair and was with good intent in mind, but has caused the cohort to stabilize and spread. Changing the state of affairs I think is urgent but will be nearly impossible.

Evidence?

 

[joG]

Not really, there are plenty of studies showing that almost true social mobility exists in Scandinavian countries. Americans may believe they can get to the top or even half way but the facts in the studies you posted and I alluded to in my link disprove that.



Evidence?

Actually you cannot compare the Scandinavian countries with the US. There are many reasons I say that, among them the populations have been too homogeneous with too small populations meaning that peer group pressures are much stronger and vigorously applied. It is a different universe. But even so, the civil contract seems to be unraveling and the social models are under siege with xenophobia in the streets and Norway arguing that it cannot uphold its welfare state unless it opens up drilling in hitherto fiercely protected natural parks. The most interesting development, however, it in Finland, where the government has turned to researching minimum income and is running experiments with the intention of eliminating their social programs, because they are unaffordable.

As to the effects of civil rights and social programs on the lower classes I cannot off hand tell you one individual study. My area is economics and I follow the social side of it continuously reading studies of all types and in large number. I would have to do a formal search and it is late in the day and quite hot. I really do not feel like investing the hour or two right now. I will see, what I can do for you at a later date, but not now. I beg understanding. If you are really interested, it will be a longish search, as the studies I remember are from different academic disciplines concerning double income families, use of pre-kindergarten child care, social benefits programs, single mother poverty, the effect of divorce, the effect of classes with mostly non-native speaking children etc. That is why looking up a literature list is time intense.

 

[blaxshep]

The most interesting development, however, it in Finland, where the government has turned to researching minimum income and is running experiments with the intention of eliminating their social programs, because they are unaffordable.

This is actually a much more affordable and effective method than the welfare state.

 

[Captain America]

1. Blacks: Eliminate anti-social behaviors. (ie: disproportionate violence and crime, pulling pants up from around kneecaps, nasty blighted neighborhoods, and the glorification of gangsta thug life.)

2. Whites: Give blacks the chance to redeem themselves and give them a do-over. Let by-gone's be by-gone's should they ever decide to clean up their act.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Actually you cannot compare the Scandinavian countries with the US.

In terms of the simple concept of social mobility any countries can be compared.

as the studies I remember are from different academic disciplines concerning double income families, use of pre-kindergarten child care, social benefits programs, single mother poverty, the effect of divorce, the effect of classes with mostly non-native speaking children etc. That is why looking up a literature list is time intense.

On this general point, I can agree.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

I don't know if there's anything we can do to end racism.

Unfortunately, she is right. RACISM is in the heart of individuals, and sometimes passed on from one generation to another.

My father was extremely racist, but I put that torch out in my preteens.

I can only offer this one lame thought....the word RASIST has been thrown around so much and so long, that pretty much anything anyone says or does is called RASIST by someone. Just recently, in a thread here, the term ALL LIVES MATTER was said to be racist.

This silly crap needs to stop. It is only making the divide broader, and making any legitimate civil rights efforts look stupid. They can't keep calling anyone and every who disagrees with them a RACIST.

A POLL should be started asking how many white people here on DP have been called RACIST at any time. I can bet the POLL would indicate 100%.

 

[blaxshep]

Unfortunately, she is right. RACISM is in the heart of individuals, and sometimes passed on from one generation to another.

My father was extremely racist, but I put that torch out in my preteens.

I can only offer this one lame thought....the word RASIST has been thrown around so much and so long, that pretty much anything anyone says or does is called RASIST by someone. Just recently, in a thread here, the term ALL LIVES MATTER was said to be racist.

This silly crap needs to stop. It is only making the divide broader, and making any legitimate civil rights efforts look stupid. They can't keep calling anyone and every who disagrees with them a RACIST.

A POLL should be started asking how many white people here on DP have been called RACIST at any time. I can bet the POLL would indicate 100%.

Like wise any Black that sides on any issue with whites is an called an uncle tom.

 

[joG]

This is actually a much more affordable and effective method than the welfare state.

I think you are probably right.

 

[joG]

In terms of the simple concept of social mobility any countries can be compared.



On this general point, I can agree.

I think we will have to disagree on the comparability of non-comparables.

 

[NeverTrump]

You do realize that during that 100+ years, we still had Jim Crow, and it wasn't until three years ago that MS finalized ratification of the 13th Amendment banning slavery.

It is very true that as long as there are different shades of skin, there will be racism...but that is NO excuse to ignore it and to allow it to fester. That is NO excuse to not address racist acts whenever they happen. That is NO excuse to assume that it doesn't adversely affect thirty-plus million Americans, and so affects all Americans.

Your point is no different from saying, "There will always be bullies in the schoolyard, so why do anything about it? Since there will always be bullies, we should just accept that fact and do nothing to stop the bullying."

But you didn't answer my question. Are you saying racism is the specific things like calling people the N-word or lynchings, or is it the feelings EVERYONE has when dealing with a culture or people they don't understand? The first has for the most part been successfully been dealt with at least in the white community. We don't officially treat black people as second class citizens anymore. We may have some "racist" type laws on the books but even that is subject to interpretation and we are making progress on that everyday.

There is still a lot of outright racism towards whites in the Black community. Some of these people are even advocating for "safe places," which is really code word for no whites allowed, and they want to put racial deciding factors ahead of intelligence or education qualifications for getting into schools and getting jobs. This is not progress IMHO. This is a step backwards, and it's white people who are advocating for/thinking about these type of incentives for minorities, but yet, minorities still feel bad??? If you think they have legitimate grievances towards whites that's fine, but it's still considered racism to me. I've been denied lower-paying jobs because "I wouldn't fit into the community." That was code for, I am not black. A lot of my Asian friends talked about their frustration in getting into Ivy League schools, and they felt that Ivy Leagues had too many Asians and that's why they weren't accepted. And if such an intense mindset doesn't change along with the progress already happening in the white community. I can't see things going forward.

As I said if it's the latter philosophy/emotion about the thing, then there isn't anything SPECIFIC we can do about it. It's just a high ideal that we can get there eventually, but there isn't a way we can force the issue as a community. It has to happen organically and naturally. These groups can only scream so loud until everyone gets sick of it and it gets put on the back page of the newspaper again and then things calm down... And that's what this thread boils down to.

 

[Mithrae]

Are you saying racism is the specific things like calling people the N-word or lynchings, or is it the feelings EVERYONE has when dealing with a culture or people they don't understand? The first has for the most part been successfully been dealt with at least in the white community.

Hahaha. Sure. From what I've seen in numerous discussions there's at least half a dozen regulars on this forum who'll keenly insist on the flimsiest of pretexts that when it comes to intelligence - humanity's most distinguishing and arguably most important attribute - black people are inherently inferior to white people.

I guess as long as they're not openly calling people niggers... :doh

 

[NeverTrump]

1. black people are inherently inferior to white people.

2. I guess as long as they're not openly calling people niggers... :doh

1. The internet is a different animal than real life, people can type whatever the heck they want. That doesn't mean it's a prevalent problem.

2. Are you saying this isn't progress?

 

[Mithrae]

1. The internet is a different animal than real life, people can type whatever the heck they want. That doesn't mean it's a prevalent problem.

2. Are you saying this isn't progress?

That's the thing - regular posters on a serious online forum are likely say what they want to say, not what they feel they're expected to say. And I reckon we're probably not too far off a reasonable sampling of American etc. peoples and opinions here; if anything, on average probably a bit more well-read and intelligent than national averages. So if a not-insignificant minority (haven't really thought about it much, but I guess half a dozen people might be around one tenth of those I'd recognise as 'regular posters' in this sub-forum) hold such inclinations here, it's hard imagine that society in general is a great deal better.

Progress has certainly been made, though bigotry becoming more closeted and insidious isn't a great example of that. There are fewer bigoted people, but I think you're incorrect to say that it's "for the most part been successfully been dealt with," especially when you immediately juxtapose it against "still a lot of outright racism towards whites in the Black community." Let's face it, even if one fifth of black Americans were bigoted against white people and only one twentieth of white Americans, there'd still be more white bigots. But more likely the percentages are much closer together, and the black bigotry is just easier for white folk to recognize. Just as - Glen keeps suggesting - certain changes in political attitudes after the 2008 election might be more noticeable to black folk.

 

[NeverTrump]

Just as - Glen keeps suggesting - certain changes in political attitudes after the 2008 election might be more noticeable to black folk.

But yet what happened in 2008? We as a country came together to elect a black man for the first time in history. I really feel that if the majority were closeted and insidious Mitt Romney would have easily won and so McCain would have too. It just didn't happen and they even had trouble getting white people voting for them.

 

[rcart76]

get rid of all media outlets and radio personalities (Left and Right leaning). While they are still around, we will never improve race relations because fueling racial division is how they make that money.

 

[NoWayIn]

Name one thing that blacks and whites each need to do to help end racism. Or, at least mitigate it quite a bit.

Generic, as groups. Something significant. Please answer for both, not just one.

Get to know each other. Too many blacks and whites are staying divided and never get to know each other. Step away from your fear of the unknown and something different. Don't stick with a label but take the time to find out for yourself what an individual is like. So what if someone has a different skin color than yourself, say hello and get to know that person and then decide what your opinion is without letting race make your decision. People are much to fearful and hesitant when it comes to exploring something new and different.

 

[matchlight]

Name one thing that blacks and whites each need to do to help end racism. Or, at least mitigate it quite a bit.

Generic, as groups. Something significant. Please answer for both, not just one.

Racial discrimination by government has already been illegal for a very long time. As for racial discrimination by other private persons, I don't feel the need to do anything except defend their right to engage in it. Anyone is free to hate the living guts of anyone he damned well pleases and discriminate by race in any way his state's laws allow, however despicable I may think his sentiments and actions are.