German guy
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2010
- Messages
- 5,187
- Reaction score
- 4,255
- Location
- Berlin, Germany
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Moderate
Hello,
when debating with Americans online, I discovered there seems to be a lot of passionate dislike of Obama. I am not American, and certainly I don't want to tell you you shouldn't dislike Obama, if you do. I just wonder why you think so many Americans are so passionate when it comes to rejecting Obama.
From what I've read over here in Germany, it seems to me Obama has been doing an ok job so far. Maybe not outstanding, but not horrible either. Take this article from a German paper as an example:
(translation mine, so please excuse mistakes)
USA: Das Obama-Paradox | Politik | ZEIT ONLINE
What do you think? Is that foreign article spot on, or do you think it is missing essential aspects?
As I said, personally, as a non-American, I believe Obama has been an ok President so far. Certainly better than Bush. I didn't like Bush, because I think his foreign policy was too uncompromising, he didn't think much of diplomacy and the impression arose he is bullying his allies.
Also, I am skeptical of many of Bush's policies. For example, I opposed the Iraq war, for good reasons, and although the worst case has not become reality, many of the concerns have been confirmed. I am not fond of the abrogation of many civil rights in the name of fighting terrorism, especially extralegal detentions, denial of fair trials and torture. My stomach just aches when I think of that. I believe we shouldn't violate our basic values just because we are afraid, because we are not giving a good example when doing so. Is it just our greatest strength that we even give horrible criminals a fair trial and the right on defense? Isn't that exactly what makes us better than other countries? And the government shouldn't have so much power it can easily imprison suspects, that is dangerous and invites abuse; The government shouldn't be above the law. A little less safety just is the price of freedom, in my opinion, but it's worth being paid.
On top of that, I didn't really like Bush's rhetorics. Maybe that's a cultural thing, because Germany is a culturally rather "blue" state, by American standards. For example, I don't really understand Bush's religiously toned rhetorics, and his occasional martial attitude. It just made me suspicious.
So when Obama was elected, I was hopeful. At any rate, his rhetorics are more likeable than Bush's, IMHO, and he is a outstanding speaker. I liked his Berlin speech in 2008, it showed that he has a talent for reaching non-Americans too. But of course rhetorics alone are not very important, although I believe it's not for the bad when a President is a good speaker too. But that's just a formal thing.
I am also fond of Obama's foreign policies so far. He put more emphasis on cooperation again, was more inclusive towards America's long time allies again, and his efforts towards Russia and China have yielded a certain positive effect already (for example, Russia and China are more cooperative now when it comes to countering Iran's nuclear program). Also, I think it was a good decision that Obama announced a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq.
I am disappointed, though, that Obama has not curbed the government pracitizes of extralegal detention and denial of fair trials for suspects, but at least he is planning on closing Guantanamo and has ended torture. But I am disappointed he doesn't go further, and doesn't end these practizes once and for all.
Naturally, I don't have a strong opinion on Obama's domestic policies as Americans probably do, but even here, I am rather supportive than critical. Are stimulus and health care reform really that bad? Chances are, the recession would have been much worse without the stimulus, at least that is what you often read over here, and might even have become a genuine depression. Of course debts are not nice, but still, it seems in this case, it was a necessary evil to avert worse effects.
And health care? This seems to be a real "red flag" (as we say over here) for many Americans. I don't really understand that either (but I am not familiar with the details). It seems that at very least, the new system is better than what you had before. Many uninsured have been included, which certainly will pay off on the long run, because many will get treatment now before it gets worse, and thus higher costs for procrastinated treatment will be minimized. There will be more prevention of chronic illnesses, instead of after-the-fact treatment, which is more expensive.
Many Americans seem to think that is "socialist" and thus bad, but I think that is an exaggeration. Of course I understand too public systems are prone for inefficiency and waste, but that doesn't necessarily need to be a too big problem, and such a public system has many good sides too. Not least that it's more fair and makes sure general public health increases. And it's not necessarily "socialism". I understand many Americans are wary of public programs, because they are not familiar with it, but I can assure you, you are miles away from genuine socialism. We had genuine socialism in the east part of Germany only 20 years ago, and it was nothing like what Obama does, but was much, much more extreme.
So you really shouldn't worry, even if you oppose public health care. Such a system may be good or bad, favorable or unfavorable for good reasons, but you don't need to worry it will bring socialism or even tyranny. At worst, it's a bit inefficient. No need to grab the guns and march towards Washington. :mrgreen:
So what do you think? Do you rather like or dislike Obama, and what do you think of my thoughts? Am I missing anything important?
when debating with Americans online, I discovered there seems to be a lot of passionate dislike of Obama. I am not American, and certainly I don't want to tell you you shouldn't dislike Obama, if you do. I just wonder why you think so many Americans are so passionate when it comes to rejecting Obama.
From what I've read over here in Germany, it seems to me Obama has been doing an ok job so far. Maybe not outstanding, but not horrible either. Take this article from a German paper as an example:
(translation mine, so please excuse mistakes)
The Obama Paradox
(...) 18 months and one day, he is in office now. His achievements are respectable. Within one and a half year, he has countered the threat of a long lasting depression and brought back the USA on a path of growth with a 800 billion stimulus package. He has put through a health care reform that slows down the ever growing costs in the past years and integrates most of the 47 million uninsured into the system. In 2009, he used a vacancy in the Supreme Court to name a Latina, Sonia Sotomayor, constitutional judge for the first time. Before the summer break 2010, the Senat will conform his second nomination for the highest court as well, Elena Kagan, third woman among the nine judges.
Three large legislation successes and two new female Supreme Court judges, next to management of every day government, innumerable journeys abroad and top summits, the dealing with unexpected crisis -- after 18 months in office, that is respectable. Many Presidents had less in their favor even after four years. But the voters are not impressed. Strongly supportive, they voted for him in 2008. When inaugurated, his approval rate was at an average of 67%. Today, support and rejection are equal with 47% each. Only 32% still believe the country is on the right track, 61% think it is heading in the wrong direction. (...)
Why has Obama only limited success in turning his countable successes into approval by the citizens? Part of the explanation is that they don't feel positive effects of the reforms yet -- and on top of that, they doubt they will ever come. Despite the new economic growth, the unemployment rate stagnates at 9.5%, an unusually high number for the USA. Health care reform draws attention -- despite a stop of costs -- due to higher fees. That they would rise even quicker without the reform, only few attribute to Obama. Financial reform doesn't change that "average Joe" perceives a shortage when looking into his account or moneybag. The dramatically rising public debt causes fear of the future. The oil spill at the Gulf and the experience that even the high tech country USA hasn't been able to solve the problem for months additionally depresses the general atmosphere.
America's reputation may be better today than under Bush. But this won't decide elections. The conservative camp generally refuses to consider the change under Obama as social and international policy successes. And even for his supporters, other topics have priority: Jobs and economic safety in their private lives.
USA: Das Obama-Paradox | Politik | ZEIT ONLINE
What do you think? Is that foreign article spot on, or do you think it is missing essential aspects?
As I said, personally, as a non-American, I believe Obama has been an ok President so far. Certainly better than Bush. I didn't like Bush, because I think his foreign policy was too uncompromising, he didn't think much of diplomacy and the impression arose he is bullying his allies.
Also, I am skeptical of many of Bush's policies. For example, I opposed the Iraq war, for good reasons, and although the worst case has not become reality, many of the concerns have been confirmed. I am not fond of the abrogation of many civil rights in the name of fighting terrorism, especially extralegal detentions, denial of fair trials and torture. My stomach just aches when I think of that. I believe we shouldn't violate our basic values just because we are afraid, because we are not giving a good example when doing so. Is it just our greatest strength that we even give horrible criminals a fair trial and the right on defense? Isn't that exactly what makes us better than other countries? And the government shouldn't have so much power it can easily imprison suspects, that is dangerous and invites abuse; The government shouldn't be above the law. A little less safety just is the price of freedom, in my opinion, but it's worth being paid.
On top of that, I didn't really like Bush's rhetorics. Maybe that's a cultural thing, because Germany is a culturally rather "blue" state, by American standards. For example, I don't really understand Bush's religiously toned rhetorics, and his occasional martial attitude. It just made me suspicious.
So when Obama was elected, I was hopeful. At any rate, his rhetorics are more likeable than Bush's, IMHO, and he is a outstanding speaker. I liked his Berlin speech in 2008, it showed that he has a talent for reaching non-Americans too. But of course rhetorics alone are not very important, although I believe it's not for the bad when a President is a good speaker too. But that's just a formal thing.
I am also fond of Obama's foreign policies so far. He put more emphasis on cooperation again, was more inclusive towards America's long time allies again, and his efforts towards Russia and China have yielded a certain positive effect already (for example, Russia and China are more cooperative now when it comes to countering Iran's nuclear program). Also, I think it was a good decision that Obama announced a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq.
I am disappointed, though, that Obama has not curbed the government pracitizes of extralegal detention and denial of fair trials for suspects, but at least he is planning on closing Guantanamo and has ended torture. But I am disappointed he doesn't go further, and doesn't end these practizes once and for all.
Naturally, I don't have a strong opinion on Obama's domestic policies as Americans probably do, but even here, I am rather supportive than critical. Are stimulus and health care reform really that bad? Chances are, the recession would have been much worse without the stimulus, at least that is what you often read over here, and might even have become a genuine depression. Of course debts are not nice, but still, it seems in this case, it was a necessary evil to avert worse effects.
And health care? This seems to be a real "red flag" (as we say over here) for many Americans. I don't really understand that either (but I am not familiar with the details). It seems that at very least, the new system is better than what you had before. Many uninsured have been included, which certainly will pay off on the long run, because many will get treatment now before it gets worse, and thus higher costs for procrastinated treatment will be minimized. There will be more prevention of chronic illnesses, instead of after-the-fact treatment, which is more expensive.
Many Americans seem to think that is "socialist" and thus bad, but I think that is an exaggeration. Of course I understand too public systems are prone for inefficiency and waste, but that doesn't necessarily need to be a too big problem, and such a public system has many good sides too. Not least that it's more fair and makes sure general public health increases. And it's not necessarily "socialism". I understand many Americans are wary of public programs, because they are not familiar with it, but I can assure you, you are miles away from genuine socialism. We had genuine socialism in the east part of Germany only 20 years ago, and it was nothing like what Obama does, but was much, much more extreme.
So you really shouldn't worry, even if you oppose public health care. Such a system may be good or bad, favorable or unfavorable for good reasons, but you don't need to worry it will bring socialism or even tyranny. At worst, it's a bit inefficient. No need to grab the guns and march towards Washington. :mrgreen:
So what do you think? Do you rather like or dislike Obama, and what do you think of my thoughts? Am I missing anything important?