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N. Korea says not bound by missile test treaty

Paul

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N. Korea says not bound by missile test treaty-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13361343/#storyContinued


Between Iran and N.Korea, things could get pretty heated in the next few years. Not to mention we are still in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know we need to stay the course, but I wish some of the other nations would step up and do what is right. When everyone becomes an isolationist, world wars happen.
 
Why should any other countries stand up? I mean we keep telling these countries we can handle it and we don't need their support. Maybe if the U.S. admistration would eat some humble pie every now and then, the world may help us.

But when we keep giving the middle finger to world and say we are going to do what we want to do, regardless of what it thinks, cooperation becomes slim.

I am fairly confident in saying, short of using some nukes, the U.S. is not going to be able to handle a war on 4 fronts with Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea on its own. And the "coalition of the willing" is dwindling down. Not to mention the reprocussions from China if we decide to attack Iran or North Korea.
 
TheNextEra said:
I am fairly confident in saying, short of using some nukes, the U.S. is not going to be able to handle a war on 4 fronts with Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea on its own. And the "coalition of the willing" is dwindling down. Not to mention the reprocussions from China if we decide to attack Iran or North Korea.


I do agree with you there, we don't want to get involved with China right now. They are the other superpower if you ask me, and are extremely dangerous.
 
When everyone becomes an isolationist, world wars happen.

:rofl
 
TheNextEra said:
I am fairly confident in saying, short of using some nukes, the U.S. is not going to be able to handle a war on 4 fronts with Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea on its own.
Why are you "confident" in this?
How are you a competent judge?

And the "coalition of the willing" is dwindling down. Not to mention the reprocussions from China if we decide to attack Iran or North Korea.
The Chinese know where their bread is buttered -- and it isnt in Iran or North Korea.
 
The intelligent way to handle China is to stop doing business with them when they get snippy, without an internal economic mechanism such as free people with individual property and their own money, the Chinese economy would stagnate quickly, then go for the death blow when they can no longer sustain a large military. Once N. Korea no longer has big buddy China you will see a much more quiet and docile response from Kim Jung Il.
 
LaMidRighter said:
The intelligent way to handle China is to stop doing business with them when they get snippy, without an internal economic mechanism such as free people with individual property and their own money, the Chinese economy would stagnate quickly, then go for the death blow when they can no longer sustain a large military. Once N. Korea no longer has big buddy China you will see a much more quiet and docile response from Kim Jung Il.

It is truly a symbiotic relationship.

China keeps are fiat currency afloat and we use that currency to buy chinese goods.

If we stop buying their goods, what incentive to they have to prop up our dollar?
 
zymurgy said:
It is truly a symbiotic relationship.

China keeps are fiat currency afloat and we use that currency to buy chinese goods.

If we stop buying their goods, what incentive to they have to prop up our dollar?
A big phat AMEN to that!
The dollar ain't based on gold any more, you know.
 
Goobieman said:
Why are you "confident" in this?

My military experience. That is why I said fairly confident. I never claimed to be 100% right did I?

Goobieman said:
How are you a competent judge?

I never claimed to be a judge, those are your words about me not mine. I said I was farily confident. I did not say I was 100% right nor did I say that anyone elses opinion was 100% wrong.

Goobieman said:
The Chinese know where their bread is buttered -- and it isnt in Iran or North Korea.

In regards to Iran, tt is as far as oil goes and sorry, that is more valuable to them than most anything we can give them at this point. They are a rising superpower and with the way we are operating buisness internationally, we could very well find ourselves surpassed in the economic sense in the future by China.

The problem I see is many Americans have become arrogant in thinking we are never wrong and we are the best no matter what. While that is a positive way of thinking, it is not absolute and IMO we are letting our guard down economically.

As for North Korea, the Chineses will never allow us to be so close to them border wise if we attack North Korea. NK will get support from China much like they did in the Korean War. That is why we won't attack them first.
 
TheNextEra said:
My military experience. That is why I said fairly confident. I never claimed to be 100% right did I?
And what about your military experience allows you to judge the strategic military capabilities of the US?

I never claimed to be a judge, those are your words about me not mine.
"Competent Judge". How do we know you know what you;re talking about?

In regards to Iran, tt is as far as oil goes and sorry, that is more valuable to them than most anything we can give them at this point.
Except that we have the ability to almost completely shut down their export economy and ruin their industrial capacity. Without these things, China is just barely out of the stone age.

They can get oil anywhere, see...
 
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If people dont see the paralells between today, and the years leading up to WWII, then they simply arent looking.
 
Goobieman said:
And what about your military experience allows you to judge the strategic military capabilities of the US?

20 years in the military, 12 of which has been spent in Theater Analysis in Joint Service Operations. And I will point out again, that my experience does not mean I am never wrong. I have been wrong too many times to count.

I said I was fairly confident in my assessment, however, that doesn't mean I am right just because of it. There are many variables that can change instantly that can affect assessments and swing them in directions we never knew existed. That is what I liked about the field.

Goobieman said:
How do we know you know what you;re talking about?

You don't know. And unless you know me personally, you will never know. I'm quite ok with that. If you think I am wrong, so be it. I'm not holding a competition here, only voicing my concerns and giving an assessment. If you disagree with what I have given as an assessment, no problem. That is why we are here to exchange ideas. At least that is why I am here.

Goobieman said:
Except that we have the ability to almost completely shut down their export economy and ruin their industrial capacity. Without these things, China is just barely out of the stone age.

They can get oil anywhere, see...

By completely shutting down their export, we are only shooting ourselves in the foot as well. We have become dependant on cheap labor products from China and many other countries as well. By shutting them down, we are shutting ourselves down in the process.

Also I think many people are serisouly underestimating China's capability to deal without the U.S. That is why IMO, they are manuvering themselves to be a super power that is completely independant of the U.S. all the while making us dependent on them.
 
Lil Kim just needs some attention, Iran is in the spotlight, and mini me is just trying to steal some for himself. He won't launch!:roll:
 
I said I was fairly confident in my assessment, however, that doesn't mean I am right just because of it. There are many variables that can change instantly that can affect assessments and swing them in directions we never knew existed. That is what I liked about the field.
Understand thjat I'm not trying to offend you here.

By completely shutting down their export, we are only shooting ourselves in the foot as well. We have become dependant on cheap labor products from China and many other countries as well. By shutting them down, we are shutting ourselves down in the process.
The question then becomes - who is hurt more by shutting down China's economy -- them or us. The effect on them is direct and iommediate; the effect on us is not as direrwct and less immediate. WE, however, have the ability to 'go elsewhere' and they don't. Long run - we win.

That's why China wont chose a country like North Korea or Iran over us.
 
Goobieman said:
Understand thjat I'm not trying to offend you here.


The question then becomes - who is hurt more by shutting down China's economy -- them or us. The effect on them is direct and iommediate; the effect on us is not as direrwct and less immediate. WE, however, have the ability to 'go elsewhere' and they don't. Long run - we win.

That's why China wont chose a country like North Korea or Iran over us.

From your comment, I really don't think you know a lot about China's diplomatic strategy. While China's stand on Iran is unclear, China will definitely fight us over North Korea. China probably will even go to war with us over North Korea, so your little 'economic punishment' isn't threatening at all. The strategy of China is simple - never let US build a military base near China's border. If China loses N.Korea to US, the US will be able to build a base there, and that means direct supply line to ground troops in case of WWIII.

Also your economic analysis on shutting down China's economcy is not to the point. We're not only competing against China, there are other nations too. Punishing China's export will hurt them more than they hurt us, but we'll still be hurt pretty bad and that's good news for Russia and Europe. China is only competing against the US, but we are competing against the world because we're no.1. We can't afford to hurt ourselves that bad and let Russia/Europe come closer to our economic power.
 
Paul said:
N. Korea says not bound by missile test treaty-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13361343/#storyContinued


Between Iran and N.Korea, things could get pretty heated in the next few years. Not to mention we are still in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know we need to stay the course, but I wish some of the other nations would step up and do what is right. When everyone becomes an isolationist, world wars happen.


It would be nice if some other nations grew a pair.
 
drobforever said:
From your comment, I really don't think you know a lot about China's diplomatic strategy. While China's stand on Iran is unclear, China will definitely fight us over North Korea. China probably will even go to war with us over North Korea, so your little 'economic punishment' isn't threatening at all.
Yes - having the ability to devestate China's economy at little if any risk to ourselves isn't threatening.

The strategy of China is simple - never let US build a military base near China's border. If China loses N.Korea to US, the US will be able to build a base there, and that means direct supply line to ground troops in case of WWIII.
As if South Korea, Japan, the Phillipines and Taiwan don't accomplish the exact same thing. The US doesnt need NK as a 'direct supply line' for fighting China, and China knows it.

Tell me, exactly, in terms of cost/benefit, why China would chose to lose the friendship of the US over N Korea.

Also your economic analysis on shutting down China's economcy is not to the point. We're not only competing against China, there are other nations too. Punishing China's export will hurt them more than they hurt us, but we'll still be hurt pretty bad and that's good news for Russia and Europe.
In that they can gain a larger part of our import and export market, sure. But shutting off Chinese exports means that China won't be exporting to anyone, not just us - and that will hurt the Europeans as much as anyone else.
 
Goobieman said:
Yes - having the ability to devestate China's economy at little if any risk to ourselves isn't threatening.

Maybe if you can show us some data on how 'devestating' this will be to China's economy and how 'little if any' this will hurt us, then I'll buy that.

As if South Korea, Japan, the Phillipines and Taiwan don't accomplish the exact same thing. The US doesnt need NK as a 'direct supply line' for fighting China, and China knows it.

First of all, please get the facts straight. None of the above bases can provide a place to directly move the ground troops towards China. There's also no base in Taiwan. Also those countries are not controlled by dummy goverments that will listen to whatever US saids. They might not even let US troops use their air space in case there's war against China. We're talking about a whole different level of control over N.Korea if we decide to do another Iraq war on them.

Tell me, exactly, in terms of cost/benefit, why China would chose to lose the friendship of the US over N Korea.

There's no longer any friendship betwen US and China if US decides to invade N.Korea, this really shows you don't have a clue about the situation. China will definitely veto anything US propose to the UN that involves any military action against N.Korea, US will have to attack N.Korea without China's consent, how can there be still friendship?

In that they can gain a larger part of our import and export market, sure. But shutting off Chinese exports means that China won't be exporting to anyone, not just us - and that will hurt the Europeans as much as anyone else.

I am sure I missed the part about how in practice you can shut down China's export to other countries. China is already in WTO.
 
drobforever said:
Maybe if you can show us some data on how 'devestating' this will be to China's economy and how 'little if any' this will hurt us, then I'll buy that.
Blockade China's ports. China doesnt have the naval power to break the bkockade. Done. A naval blockade means no air sorties into Chinese airspace and no troops on Chinese soil, just naval assets (read: submarines)in position to sink anything trying to run the blockade into a Chinese harbor.

First of all, please get the facts straight. None of the above bases can provide a place to directly move the ground troops towards China.
Given the above: Why do we need to move ground troops toward/into China?

There's no longer any friendship betwen US and China if US decides to invade N.Korea, this really shows you don't have a clue about the situation.
Given your responses of late, the person w/o a clue is apparent.

China will definitely veto anything US propose to the UN that involves any military action against N.Korea, US will have to attack N.Korea without China's consent, how can there be still friendship?
You arent addressing what I asked:
Why would China chose NK over the US?
 
Goobieman said:
Tell me, exactly, in terms of cost/benefit, why China would chose to lose the friendship of the US over N Korea.

The same reason China did it in the Korean war. They DO NOT want the U.S. to hvae a base that close. AFter the U.N. landed in the Korean war and we pushed the NK past the river up north in NOrth Korea, the Chineese came to the aid of North Korea and pushed us back down.

The reason they gave was they thought we were going to invade them, but the reasons hinted afterwords suggested they didn't want the U.S. to have a foothold that far north near them.

It is definately something I would not want to put to the test again.
 
TheNextEra said:
The same reason China did it in the Korean war. They DO NOT want the U.S. to hvae a base that close. AFter the U.N. landed in the Korean war and we pushed the NK past the river up north in NOrth Korea, the Chineese came to the aid of North Korea and pushed us back down.

The reason they gave was they thought we were going to invade them, but the reasons hinted afterwords suggested they didn't want the U.S. to have a foothold that far north near them.

It is definately something I would not want to put to the test again.

Ok... you're not seeing the bigger picture.
 
Goobieman said:
Ok... you're not seeing the bigger picture.

Actually I am, but I don't think you're seeing how the Chineese feel about the U.S. being so close to their country. North Korea is like the estranged little brother to China. While they may not like how NK is doing things, they aren't just going to stand idly by and watch their little brother get killed. Short of the little Troll attacking another country first, I think China will ally themselves with North Korea as a defense to their own border.

They are positioned to become the next Super Power. They are not going to just let the U.S. become their "neighbor". Also keep in mind, China does not rationalize things in the same way the U.S. does. I think you're trying to put too much U.S. strategy into China's plan and that is a mistake IMO.
 
I would think that China would feel pretty much the same about having an American military base next door to them as we felt about the USSR moving into Cuba.
 
TheNextEra said:
Actually I am, but I don't think you're seeing how the Chineese feel about the U.S. being so close to their country. North Korea is like the estranged little brother to China.
What would the US do from NK that it can't do from SK, Japan, the Phillipines or Taiwan?
You're fixated on the idea that the US wants or needs NK as a place to amass troops and equipment for an invasion of China -- when any action we take against China will not involve invading them.

While they may not like how NK is doing things, they aren't just going to stand idly by and watch their little brother get killed. Short of the little Troll attacking another country first, I think China will ally themselves with North Korea as a defense to their own border.
And lose the US as a trading partner.
Tell me what that will do to their economy.
 
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