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My thoughts re Bernie and the DNC

radcen

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First, do not mistake what I am about to say as approval or condoning what the DNC did. Far from it. But, having said that...

...I cannot whip up any sympathy for Bernie Sanders. Here's a guy who has made a big deal and a career out of being a Big-"I" Independent. He has specifically disavowed the Dem Party and make it a point that he is not one of them. He did little-to-no campaigning for lower-level races during his primary run, because it was all about him. He only joined them when it was convenient for him and the party affiliation would serve *his* purposes of running for President.

So, yeah, Bernie, what they did wasn't cool, but really you shouldn't have expected better to begin with.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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First, do not mistake what I am about to say as approval or condoning what the DNC did. Far from it. But, having said that...

...I cannot whip up any sympathy for Bernie Sanders. Here's a guy who has made a big deal and a career out of being a Big-"I" Independent. He has specifically disavowed the Dem Party and make it a point that he is not one of them. He did little-to-no campaigning for lower-level races during his primary run, because it was all about him. He only joined them when it was convenient for him and the party affiliation would serve *his* purposes of running for President.

So, yeah, Bernie, what they did wasn't cool, but really you shouldn't have expected better to begin with.

Problems with this are,

They allowed him to run.
They broke their own rules.
They defrauded people donating to him.

The biggest issue is the last.
If they hadn't played games he could of won.
A lot of Bernie people thought he was getting a fair shake and donated.
That's who you should be concerned about.

If he continues his endorsement at the convention and doesn't Ted Cruz, **** can get bad real quick.
 

reinoe

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Problems with this are,

They allowed him to run.
They broke their own rules.
They defrauded people donating to him.

The biggest issue is the last.
If they hadn't played games he could of won.
A lot of Bernie people thought he was getting a fair shake and donated.
That's who you should be concerned about.

If he continues his endorsement at the convention and doesn't Ted Cruz, **** can get bad real quick.

People like Sanders and Gary Johnson and not fighters. Despite what it appears, they aren't fighting to win. That's why I've given up on Bernie. He's a nice and decent man, but being nice doesn't mean sacrificing certain advantages. I was beffuddled when he went on the "we're tired of your damn e-mails" while Hillary and the entire DNC was cheating their way to victory and stabbing him in the back. Nice guys don't always finish last, but Bernie will. He's the type who won't support his supporters and abandoned them for the sake of the Democratic Party. I don't know why he truly endorsed Hillary Clinton. She didn't make Elizabeth Warren or Sanders her VP. In fact the choice of Tim Kaine flies in the face of everything Bernie Sanders stood for.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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People like Sanders and Gary Johnson and not fighters. Despite what it appears, they aren't fighting to win. That's why I've given up on Bernie. He's a nice and decent man, but being nice doesn't mean sacrificing certain advantages. I was beffuddled when he went on the "we're tired of your damn e-mails" while Hillary and the entire DNC was cheating their way to victory and stabbing him in the back. Nice guys don't always finish last, but Bernie will.

I'm holding out that he'll disavow tonight.
If he doesn't, especially after Hillary hired DWS, he's a true fraudster, cuck.
 

radcen

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Problems with this are,

They allowed him to run.
They broke their own rules.
They defrauded people donating to him.

The biggest issue is the last.
If they hadn't played games he could of won.
A lot of Bernie people thought he was getting a fair shake and donated.
That's who you should be concerned about.

If he continues his endorsement at the convention and doesn't Ted Cruz, **** can get bad real quick.

Maybe what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the DNC (and the RNC) is just corrupt. :shrug: He was naive to expect better, given that he had shown no loyalty to them until he needed them, and even then his loyalty was only on an "as needed" basis.
 

shagg

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First, do not mistake what I am about to say as approval or condoning what the DNC did. Far from it. But, having said that...

...I cannot whip up any sympathy for Bernie Sanders. Here's a guy who has made a big deal and a career out of being a Big-"I" Independent. He has specifically disavowed the Dem Party and make it a point that he is not one of them. He did little-to-no campaigning for lower-level races during his primary run, because it was all about him. He only joined them when it was convenient for him and the party affiliation would serve *his* purposes of running for President.

So, yeah, Bernie, what they did wasn't cool, but really you shouldn't have expected better to begin with.

This is a bull**** angle. When faced with something like this, camp Shillary has a couple of favorite methods they employ to deal with it. Distract. Discredit. Deny. Justify. You're attempting to both distract and justify, and it's bull****. The DNC violated their own rules. They let him run as a democrat, end of story. Fundraising and how long he's been a democrat are strawmen, they let him run and were obligated, by their own rules, to be fair and impartial. Justifying it after the fact is just plain partisan hackery.

The language, via an article from USuncut

In the conduct and management of the affairs and procedures of the Democratic National Committee, particularly as they apply to the preparation and conduct of the Presidential nomination process, the Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and campaigns. The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party Presidential nominating process.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Maybe what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the DNC (and the RNC) is just corrupt. :shrug: He was naive to expect better, given that he had shown no loyalty to them until he needed them, and even then his loyalty was only on an "as needed" basis.

While true.
It doesn't excuse the fraud of his supporters.

A lot of people are brought up with this idealized notion of democracy.
Their bubbles were popped in the worst way and it cost them money.
 

radcen

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This is a bull**** angle. When faced with something like this, camp Shillary has a couple of favorite methods they employ to deal with it. Distract. Discredit. Deny. Justify. You're attempting to both distract and justify, and it's bull****. The DNC violated their own rules. They let him run as a democrat, end of story. Fundraising and how long he's been a democrat are strawmen, they let him run and were obligated, by their own rules, to be fair and impartial. Justifying it after the fact is just plain partisan hackery.

The language, via an article from USuncut
If you think I'm partisan then you haven't been paying attention. This response is comical. :lol:
 

radcen

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While true.
It doesn't excuse the fraud of his supporters.

A lot of people are brought up with this idealized notion of democracy.
Their bubbles were popped in the worst way and it cost them money.
You are correct, it doesn't excuse it... at all. I included a disclaimer right up front saying that.

But idealism and politics are often at odds, and under the surface politics is probably one of the least idealistic things going.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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You are correct, it doesn't excuse it... at all. I included a disclaimer right up front saying that.

But idealism and politics are often at odds, and under the surface politics is probably one of the least idealistic things going.

I agree.
Originally, I was giddy for Hillary to lose, because I think she's a terrible human being.

That's changed though, I was sympathetic to Bernie, thought he was a decent fella and his supporters were largely decent people.
They shouldn't be screwed over and this shouldn't be allowed to stand.
 

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I'm holding out that he'll disavow tonight.
If he doesn't, especially after Hillary hired DWS, he's a true fraudster, cuck.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. Regardless of how Hillary and the DNC tried to **** with his campaign, she is without a doubt much closer on policy to him than Trump. And certainly Sanders would prefer Hillary to appoint the tiebreaking Supreme Court Justice than Trump. With the sheer influence that the President has, especially since the next one will be able to set the course of the Supreme Court for probably the next decade, I can see the argument for supporting somebody as morally repugnant as Hillary, and even someone who completely screwed you over. I certainly disagree with Bernie Sanders on most substantive policy, but given his views I can respect that line of reasoning.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. Regardless of how Hillary and the DNC tried to **** with his campaign, she is without a doubt much closer on policy to him than Trump. And certainly Sanders would prefer Hillary to appoint the tiebreaking Supreme Court Justice than Trump. With the sheer influence that the President has, especially since the next one will be able to set the course of the Supreme Court for probably the next decade, I can see the argument for supporting somebody as morally repugnant as Hillary, and even someone who completely screwed you over. I certainly disagree with Bernie Sanders on most substantive policy, but given his views I can respect that line of reasoning.

I just don't think she will do anything remotely to support him.
Her concession are false in my opinion.

Why should he or anyone else believe her at this point?
 

radcen

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I agree.
Originally, I was giddy for Hillary to lose, because I think she's a terrible human being.

That's changed though, I was sympathetic to Bernie, thought he was a decent fella and his supporters were largely decent people.
They shouldn't be screwed over and this shouldn't be allowed to stand.
Bernie was the only candidate in the primaries from the two major parties that I felt was telling us what he honestly believed. I give him kudos for that.

Some of it I thought was wonderful, but the "details" of pulling some of his ideas off scared me, too.
 

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I just don't think she will do anything remotely to support him.
Her concession are false in my opinion.

Why should he or anyone else believe her at this point?

Her concessions to Sanders' campaign probably are false. But even if she goes back on much of that, she's still much closer to him than Trump. And all of the justices on Trump's list of potential nominees are diametrically opposed to the rulings that Sanders has claimed to want.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Bernie was the only candidate in the primaries from the two major parties that I felt was telling us what he honestly believed. I give him kudos for that.

Some of it I thought was wonderful, but the "details" of pulling some of his ideas off scared me, too.

Again.
Whether or not his ideas were nutty, he seemed genuine and honest.

Now, not so much and a lot of his supporters are rightfully angry.
I think we've all become to cynical.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Her concessions to Sanders' campaign probably are false. But even if she goes back on much of that, she's still much closer to him than Trump. And all of the justices on Trump's list of potential nominees are diametrically opposed to the rulings that Sanders has claimed to want.

I guess that's why I'm not in politics.
I'd be ashamed, disrespected and dishonorable if I allowed someone to screw me like that.
 

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I guess that's why I'm not in politics.
I'd be ashamed, disrespected and dishonorable if I allowed someone to screw me like that.

I would be too. But if I believed what Bernie believed, I'd still probably feel like I have to vote for Clinton anyway. She may have screwed me, but I think I'd have to weigh what their policies are for their country and especially the Supreme Court picks as more important.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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I would be too. But if I believed what Bernie believed, I'd still probably feel like I have to vote for Clinton anyway. She may have screwed me, but I think I'd have to weigh what their policies are for their country and especially the Supreme Court picks as more important.

Principle and self respect > Politics and party.
 

Thorgasm

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First, do not mistake what I am about to say as approval or condoning what the DNC did. Far from it. But, having said that...

...I cannot whip up any sympathy for Bernie Sanders. Here's a guy who has made a big deal and a career out of being a Big-"I" Independent. He has specifically disavowed the Dem Party and make it a point that he is not one of them. He did little-to-no campaigning for lower-level races during his primary run, because it was all about him. He only joined them when it was convenient for him and the party affiliation would serve *his* purposes of running for President.

So, yeah, Bernie, what they did wasn't cool, but really you shouldn't have expected better to begin with.

Bernie offered bringing new voters to the party. They rejected his grass roots movement.

Sure, he was an independent, but he did caucus with the dems. No one wanted to cross Hillary.
 

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Principle and self respect > Politics and party.

Not when the politics have so great an effect on the United States and the World, at least to me. If I put myself in the mind of Bernie Sanders, than Trump's policies and his Court pick would have a detrimental effect on the country and the world. Hillary's would not. I can't come up with the argument that makes my self respect more important than the well being of millions of people.
 

Thorgasm

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Maybe what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that the DNC (and the RNC) is just corrupt. :shrug: He was naive to expect better, given that he had shown no loyalty to them until he needed them, and even then his loyalty was only on an "as needed" basis.

The DNC is corrupt. Sanders wasn't naive. He talked about this for months. The media was naive and didn't follow the story. He fought in spite of the deck being stacked against him.
 

CanadaJohn

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First, do not mistake what I am about to say as approval or condoning what the DNC did. Far from it. But, having said that...

...I cannot whip up any sympathy for Bernie Sanders. Here's a guy who has made a big deal and a career out of being a Big-"I" Independent. He has specifically disavowed the Dem Party and make it a point that he is not one of them. He did little-to-no campaigning for lower-level races during his primary run, because it was all about him. He only joined them when it was convenient for him and the party affiliation would serve *his* purposes of running for President.

So, yeah, Bernie, what they did wasn't cool, but really you shouldn't have expected better to begin with.

I have to agree and feel the same about Donald Trump and the RNC/Republicans. Hard to feel sorry for anyone who's never been a party "soldier" in all their years who then cries poor when that party doesn't particularly play fair with them. Democrats have used Sanders for years in the Senate and he used them when it suited him, so it's a little rich for him to claim a lack of purity when he suddenly decides he's a Democrat for his own personal benefit.
 

radcen

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Bernie offered bringing new voters to the party. They rejected his grass roots movement.

Sure, he was an independent, but he did caucus with the dems. No one wanted to cross Hillary.
He did/does caucus with them, absolutely correct. But now that we have a little more insight regarding his actions I feel safer in saying he did that only for his self-interests. He was closer to the Dems in ideology than he was the Reps, and he didn't want to get shut-out completely and be wholly irrelevant.

Given that he did little-to-no campaigning or fund-raising for lower-ticket races in the primaries suggests it was a one-way street for him... what the Dem Party could do for him, but he wasn't willing to return the favor.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Not when the politics have so great an effect on the United States and the World, at least to me. If I put myself in the mind of Bernie Sanders, than Trump's policies and his Court pick would have a detrimental effect on the country and the world. Hillary's would not. I can't come up with the argument that makes my self respect more important than the well being of millions of people.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
 
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