My Suggestion to Deal With Obamacare

[sawdust]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

 

[penn1954]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

To me it seems that Tort Reform & ability to purchase insurance across state lines
would be an excellent start!

That said , Congress is mostly Lawyers & lobbiests so I'm not expecting it to happen!:twocents:

 

[RabidAlpaca]

The problem with just letting it fail because you know it will is that politicians will do absolutely anything to keep a failed government program alive. They'd rather just keep pumping billions and billions into it instead of addressing the core issue.

Admitting they were wrong and going back to the drawing board is something a politician will almost never do.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." ~ Dr. Milton Friedman

 

[calamity]

The problem with just letting it fail because you know it will is that politicians will do absolutely anything to keep a failed government program alive. They'd rather just keep pumping billions and billions into it instead of addressing the core issue.

Admitting they were wrong and going back to the drawing board is something a politician will almost never do.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." ~ Dr. Milton Friedman

You all are outnumbered. But, I guess that never stopped the tyrants on the Right.

 

[calamity]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

We need single payer, universal healthcare. I'd love to see the ACA collapse and be reborn as UHC.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You all are outnumbered. But, I guess that never stopped the tyrants on the Right.

Is that the way you live your life? You always go with whatever the majority says?

I prefer to live my life using my own logic and making my own decisions. Hey, to each his own.

We need single payer, universal healthcare. I'd love to see the ACA collapse and be reborn as UHC.

Why not a multipayer system with an opt-out capability like Germany? Why do you want to force everybody under one system?

 

[sawdust]

You all are outnumbered. But, I guess that never stopped the tyrants on the Right.

Defunding Obamacare is impossible with a democrat Senate and President. I think it was important to make the statement though. I believe the bill will fail, it will harm the economy and decrease our quality of care.

We don't need single payer. That's a bad idea as well. Healthcare is not a right, it's a product. Everyone should be responsible for themselves but we are a compassionate society and there should be a safety net which guarantees that the sick and injured are cared for. They should be financially responsible for themselves however.

 

[calamity]

Is that the way you live your life? You always go with whatever the majority says?

I prefer to live my life using my own logic and making my own decisions. Hey, to each his own.

You need to sometimes be a good neighbor and not some selfish POS who always demands he get his way.

Why not a multipayer system with an opt-out capability like Germany? Why do you want to force everybody under one system?

Whatever works as long as healthcare is no longer an employer's responsibility but rather one of government.

 

[calamity]

Defunding Obamacare is impossible with a democrat Senate and President. I think it was important to make the statement though. I believe the bill will fail, it will harm the economy and decrease our quality of care.

We don't need single payer. That's a bad idea as well. Healthcare is not a right, it's a product. Everyone should be responsible for themselves but we are a compassionate society and there should be a safety net which guarantees that the sick and injured are cared for. They should be financially responsible for themselves however.

Yeah. Let's end medicare for old people and let them all fend for themselves. After all, "Healthcare is not a right, it's a product." :roll:

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You need to sometimes be a good neighbor and not some selfish POS who always demands he get his way.

So by recognizing that the system that is being implemented is fatally flawed, and not wishing more damage to our society, I'm a selfish piece of ****?

You know, people who lack proper debate skills usually jump to insults. You couldn't even get through the first page of this thread. I found it to be a particularly strange insult as well considering I just advocated for a multipayer, universal system like Germany's.

Whatever works as long as healthcare is no longer an employer's responsibility but rather one of government.

In Germany your employer copays your premium.

 

[sawdust]

Yeah. Let's end medicare for old people and let them all fend for themselves. After all, "Healthcare is not a right, it's a product." :roll:

If you understood the social contract, medicare is product which people pay for all their working lives. The product is recieved in old age.

If healthcare was a right, I would be able to take it from healthcare providers at no cost to me. It's not a right, it's a product so I have to pay the provider for it. The only right to healthcare is to not be discriminated against because of race or gender.

 

[sawdust]

The problem with just letting it fail because you know it will is that politicians will do absolutely anything to keep a failed government program alive. They'd rather just keep pumping billions and billions into it instead of addressing the core issue.

Admitting they were wrong and going back to the drawing board is something a politician will almost never do.

"Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." ~ Dr. Milton Friedman

I agree with you and don't trust either party to do anything but keep up appearances so that they can be reelected and keep their mouths attached to the Federal teat.

 

[274ina]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

only thing flawed is the last 50 years of CEO care...........................

 

[274ina]

the only thing flawed is 50 years of failed CEO care...........

 

[274ina]

If you understood the social contract, medicare is product which people pay for all their working lives. The product is recieved in old age.

If healthcare was a right, I would be able to take it from healthcare providers at no cost to me. It's not a right, it's a product so I have to pay the provider for it. The only right to healthcare is to not be discriminated against because of race or gender.

loius the 16th had rights to. And demanded the people pay un-payable prices for lifes needed things. Like bread.

guess what happened to him. ?????

And HC is cheap and affordable. As everyother western nation proves.

 

[JumpinJack]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

Your information is incorrect. Reid did not say that. In fact, you may not have noticed, but the Republicans have changed their demands from repealing Obamacare to removing a couple of key provisions, to, now, talking about other things in the budget and dropping Obamacare demands altogether.

If I were you, I wouldn't rely on that source, any more, for accurate information. Where did you read that? (BTW, the ACA IS market based. How do you not know that? It's not much different from the way we buy insurance now...main difference now is that the plans have to contain certain coverages, and there's a cap on the premiums. But you still buy a policy from Blue Cross or United Health or Cigna, choose the plan you can afford, etc. It's between you and the ins. co.)

 

[sawdust]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Reid promised to negotiate to fix the republican issues with Obamacare if the House republicans passed a so called clean CR. Obama has said the same thing.

First, I wouldn't trust either of them. Second, I wouldn't allow one change to the bill because it is so destructive to our health care system and our economy the people are the ones who need to revolt against it, not the moron's in congress.

 

[wbcoleman]

To me it seems that Tort Reform & ability to purchase insurance across state lines
would be an excellent start!

That said , Congress is mostly Lawyers & lobbiests so I'm not expecting it to happen!:twocents:

I'm not against either of these things, but I think we make ourselves look silly pretending that they are the keys to healthcare reform.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Reid promised to negotiate to fix the republican issues with Obamacare if the House republicans passed a so called clean CR. Obama has said the same thing.

First, I wouldn't trust either of them. Second, I wouldn't allow one change to the bill because it is so destructive to our health care system and our economy the people are the ones who need to revolt against it, not the moron's in congress.

Yes, in fact they should enforce the original bill where there were no exemptions of special business friends and unions, no delays in the Employer mandate, no allowance of subsidies to cover Congress and staff, the president and his family should all also be subject to this stinker... see how long that would last...

I would certainly agree with your other statement as well. The Speaker of the House should not trust democrats after giving them what they want...history in past actions is the surest indicator of future actions...

 

[imagep]

Is that the way you live your life? You always go with whatever the majority says?

Thats what we do - in a democracy.

And yes, before you claim that we are not a democracy, I fully realize that we have a constitution, and thus are technically a republic - but we still vote for our leaders, thus we are ALSO a representative democracy.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Your information is incorrect. Reid did not say that. In fact, you may not have noticed, but the Republicans have changed their demands from repealing Obamacare to removing a couple of key provisions, to, now, talking about other things in the budget and dropping Obamacare demands altogether.

If I were you, I wouldn't rely on that source, any more, for accurate information. Where did you read that? (BTW, the ACA IS market based. How do you not know that? It's not much different from the way we buy insurance now...main difference now is that the plans have to contain certain coverages, and there's a cap on the premiums. But you still buy a policy from Blue Cross or United Health or Cigna, choose the plan you can afford, etc. It's between you and the ins. co.)

One HUGE difference in the way we do it now, or the way we did do it up until now, is that we allowed Americans to remain INDIVIDUALS with all their rights intact. Obama[Idon't]care[causeI'mnottheonepayingforit ] forces everyone to do what they might not choose to do otherwise.

You may want government to be in control of your body and health... Me? I would rather take care of all that myself, in my own way...thank you very much.

 

[imagep]

I read yesterday that to break the impasse in congress, Reid has promised to negotiate with House republicans to make Obamacare better. I found this interesting. First, it was an acknowledgment that the bill is flawed. My personal belief is that it's fatally flawed. If I were speaker of the house I wouldn't change a thing with the bill. I'd allow the bill to collapse on itself and be deemed unworkable.

Then I would do something market based to bring down costs and once costs are reduced, do something that makes business sense which is bi partisan instead of what we have now which is bi polar.

Republicans are scared ****less that Obamacare will not ruin our economy, or our healthcare system. Otherwise they would do EXACTLY what you suggest, which is the sensible thing to do.

I'm not a big supporter of Obamacare, but I don't buy into the rhetoric of the right that claims it is going to destroy anything. Most people aren't even significantly effected by it. Jan 1st 2014 is going to come and go, and few of us will notice that we are any better or worse off due to Obamacare. Republicans can't take the chance of that happening, because if it doesn't ruin something, then they will have been made out to be FOOLS, and few will ever trust them again - with anything. W

hile those on the far right will continue to be far right (regardess of what happens), the moderates and independents will be scared off from the republican party for life, and we will have single party rule for decades to come. Republicans have to find a way to either kill Obamacare (claiming that they saved the nation from collapse), or by finding a way to actually collapse the economy (claiming that it is the POTUS and democrats in congress who caused the collapse). Otherwise, Republicans can kiss the next few elections good-by.

It's a shamed that we have a party that has two factions, one faction wants to eliminate our fairly successful (by world standards) government perminatly, the others wants to temporarily destroy our economy for their own political gain. Disgraceful.

disclaimer: I am not a democrat, and have NEVER voted for a democrat candidate. I even voted for Reagan, the first Bush, and the second Bush (first term only). At this point, I have no allegience to any political party, and doubt that I ever will again.

 

[Perotista]

Republicans are scared ****less that Obamacare will not ruin our economy, or our healthcare system. Otherwise they would do EXACTLY what you suggest, which is the sensible thing to do.

I'm not a big supporter of Obamacare, but I don't buy into the rhetoric of the right that claims it is going to destroy anything. Most people aren't even significantly effected by it. Jan 1st 2014 is going to come and go, and few of us will notice that we are any better or worse off due to Obamacare. Republicans can't take the chance of that happening, because if it doesn't ruin something, then they will have been made out to be FOOLS, and few will ever trust them again - with anything. W

hile those on the far right will continue to be far right (regardess of what happens), the moderates and independents will be scared off from the republican party for life, and we will have single party rule for decades to come. Republicans have to find a way to either kill Obamacare (claiming that they saved the nation from collapse), or by finding a way to actually collapse the economy (claiming that it is the POTUS and democrats in congress who caused the collapse). Otherwise, Republicans can kiss the next few elections good-by.

It's a shamed that we have a party that has two factions, one faction wants to eliminate our fairly successful (by world standards) government perminatly, the others wants to temporarily destroy our economy for their own political gain. Disgraceful.

disclaimer: I am not a democrat, and have NEVER voted for a democrat candidate. I even voted for Reagan, the first Bush, and the second Bush (first term only). At this point, I have no allegience to any political party, and doubt that I ever will again.

I have always said the truth about obamacare is probably somewhere in the middle. It is not the panacea the Democrats say it is and it isn't as bad as the republicans say it will be.

Now about you joining the independent ranks, welcome to the club. While the two major parties are shrinking, those who call themselves independents are growing. In fact according to Gallup, independents for the first in the history of this nation or at least the two party system, now are more numerous than those who either affiliate or identify with both major parties. 45% of the electorate now identify themselves as independents while 43% identify themselves as either Republican or Democrat.

 

[specklebang]

Defunding Obamacare is impossible with a democrat Senate and President. I think it was important to make the statement though. I believe the bill will fail, it will harm the economy and decrease our quality of care.

We don't need single payer. That's a bad idea as well. Healthcare is not a right, it's a product. Everyone should be responsible for themselves but we are a compassionate society and there should be a safety net which guarantees that the sick and injured are cared for. They should be financially responsible for themselves however.

Aren't you sort of contradicting yourself?

We don't need single payer. That's a bad idea as well. Healthcare is not a right, it's a product. Everyone should be responsible for themselves but we are a compassionate society and there should be a safety net which guarantees that the sick and injured are cared for. They should be financially responsible for themselves

So which is it? A product or a compassion? Where can we define between "safety net" and "financially responsible"?

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm pretty confused about the "new structure" and I'm not subject to its rules (too ****ing old). Until about 20 years ago (or so) going to the doctor was $25. Having a laminectomy was $6000. So, I could and did pay cash and carry. But I also had the benefit of having a very good income, and a majority of citizens don't make that much more than the basic cost of decent living. That doctors visit is now $150 and a laminectomy about $130K.

The thing is that HC isn't a product. It's a service and it's (somewhat) a matter of life or death. Maybe instead of single payer, we need single insurer whose fees are income based and whose payments are pre-defined. So a cash patient wouldn't pay more or less than the Master Insurer. Or am I describing single payer?

I'm trying to discuss and explore the topic, this is not a pro or con post. So far, the only effect on my family is that my son has either lost or is being taxed on his "Cadillac Insurance". IMHO he's over-insured anyway. I can certainly see why a 2500 page law would be bewildering.

Regrettably, this WAS a private industry product until insurance became so widely available. Because it has that element of necessity, it inflated beyond all reason (IMHO). Because of insurance, it became over-used.

I realize the above is a bit incoherent but after this much typing.....maybe there is some content:doh

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Thats what we do - in a democracy.

And yes, before you claim that we are not a democracy, I fully realize that we have a constitution, and thus are technically a republic - but we still vote for our leaders, thus we are ALSO a representative democracy.

Incorrect. Being in the minority on the subject does not mean you shut up and disappear into the shadows never to be heard from again, which is exactly what calamity suggested we do. Apparently disagreeing with something that has a majority is 'tyranny'. Is there no issue you challenge the 51% on?