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My own paradox!

Wouldn't the unstoppable object simply bounce off the immovable object? By this occurring the immovable object wasn't moved and the unstoppable object never stopped.

Never thought of the unstoppable Object just bouncing of in a different direction. So it needn't stop and the unmoveable needn't move.

Hirnwixerei
 
Wouldn't the unstoppable object simply bounce off the immovable object? By this occurring the immovable object wasn't moved and the unstoppable object never stopped.

Never thought of the unstoppable Object just bouncing of in a different direction. So it needn't stop and the unmoveable needn't move.

Hirnwixerei

All of this however won't happen in reality. Theres no such thing as an unstoppable or immovable object. For example, what would cause an unstoppable object to move to go hit an immovable object?
 
All of this however won't happen in reality. Theres no such thing as an unstoppable or immovable object. For example, what would cause an unstoppable object to move to go hit an immovable object?

I thought we were talking theoretically not realistically.

A number of scenarios could start the movement of a unstoppable object. It's unstoppable not unmovable.

Is the sun unmovable in reality? Theoretically it is movable but in our reality we do not have the capability to move it.
 
See, your getting somewhere. If the computer never existed to calculate "3.14", then the state of existence that we live in would never come.

You still have the same contradiction. You are trying to say that the hypothetical computer has existed for an infinite amount of time and that it had a beginning.

That contradiction is what is leading to the paradox.

This is because time is progressive, I demonstrated this by saying a digit is calculated a second, giving this progressiveness a value. Since without a beginning means an infinite amount of time, I picked pi. An infinite amount of digits should be calculated if the computer has always existed and calculated 1 digit of pi a second.

PREMISES:

1. time is constant
2. computer exists forever calculating 1 digit of pi a second
3. the computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits by the time our state of existence has come



the computer would have never started pi by "3.14" or any other defined digit, the computer would have to start at a digit that is infinite because it is undefined. If the computer started at "3.14", then the computer would have a beginning. If the computer did not start at "3.14", then any calculation it makes won't effect our current state of existence. So is it even possible for a computer to exist forever?

If the universe did not begin, this is an actual infinite. Since time is progressive, it is potentially infinite, yet it will never reach an infinite value.

So in conclusion stating that matter existed forever is illogical.

If you say premise 2 or 3 is devoid of logic, then you must conclude that matter had a beginning.

It is premise 2 that has the contradiction. That is where you are saying that the computer has existed forever and it has a beginning point. That contradiction is the flaw in your logic. That contradiction is what leads to your paradox.
 
The NeS paradox...

By digressing into the infinite past, there is never a "day one" for said computer to start calculating pi.

The only way for the computer to exist at all is to have always existed, per your "always existed" premise. This means that it would have the complete answer right now, but no matter how hard we tried we could never observe the answer.
 
You still have the same contradiction. You are trying to say that the hypothetical computer has existed for an infinite amount of time and that it had a beginning.

That contradiction is what is leading to the paradox.

It is premise 2 that has the contradiction. That is where you are saying that the computer has existed forever and it has a beginning point. That contradiction is the flaw in your logic. That contradiction is what leads to your paradox.

That is incorrect.

PREMISES:

1. time is constant
2. computer exists forever calculating 1 digit of pi a second
3. the computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits by the time our state of existence has come

Time is progressive. If matter existed before the big bang, then it would be in existence and have physical effects. These physical effects are the same as if a real computer was operating in the universe. This hypothetical computer would give off no heat, use no energy, have no mass, etc... Besides, the calculations that a computer does are actual physical effects. If you can't account for the cause of a physical effect (1 second in this case), and the effect of the computer calculating another digit, then you should conclude that matter did not exist at one time.

I should have rephrased my premises to this.

My premises rephrased --

The NeS paradox forever

1. time is constant.
2. The computer existed forever.
3. The computer calculated 1 digit of pi a second.
4. The computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits by the time our state of existence.


The NeS paradox beginning

1. time is constant.
2. The computer came in to existence at a point of time.
3. The computer calculated 1 digit of pi a second.
4. The computer would have calculated a certain amount of digits by the time our state of existence.


Now, lets assume that computer was all matter that existed forever instead.

Interaction -
Interaction - Definitions from Dictionary.com
2. Physics.

a. the direct effect that one kind of particle has on another, in particular, in inducing the emission or absorption of one particle by another.

prior events -
preceding in order of the current present. Each event is the location and direction of every force, atom (and subatomic particles), and energies.

1. If matter interacts at our current state of existence then matter would have to interact since its existence.

2. If it did not interact since its existence, then there would have to be a cause for its spontaneous interaction.

3. If matter interacts because of prior events, then there would have to be a prior event based on a specific event that causes interaction.


If matter did not interact since its existence, then the current interaction would be caused by prior events, the direction of every force, atom (and subatomic particles), and energies. All of it would be uncaused, since all prior events rely on prior events which ultimately depend on a single event.

Why does someone always replies with invalid logical bullshit that I'll simply keep on refuting?

By digressing into the infinite past, there is never a "day one" for said computer to start calculating pi.

The only way for the computer to exist at all is to have always existed, per your "always existed" premise. This means that it would have the complete answer right now, but no matter how hard we tried we could never observe the answer.

Finally someone understands! You could not even observe what digit it currently calculated on the second or the last completed digit.


The computer calculates 1 digit of pi a second.

If the computer calculated "3.14", then you know it came into existence 3 seconds before, therefore it did not exist forever.

If the computer never calculated "3.14", then it never even started to calculate pi! :rofl


The simple fact is that time is progressive, it is going to potential infinity. However, it will never reach actual infinity. Once you know time is progressive then you can conclude that the universe came in to existence at a point of time ;).
 
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Fiction And Faction

"Fiction And Faction"
The simple fact is that time is progressive, it is going to potential infinity. However, it will never reach actual infinity. Once you know time is progressive then you can conclude that the universe came in to existence at a point of time ;).

Without end is a double entendre.

You conjecture that an irrational number has an origin and through time it indefinitely approaches a bound.
Would you consider indefiniteness an inherited property or an innate property of irrational numbers?


Idempotent
Nilpotent
Musean Hypernumber
 
Finally someone understands!

You want us to believe that not only did you intentionally include a contradicting premise, but that because this premise invalidates your argument, this proves that some other unrelated body of scientific theory that you don't agree with is invalid?:rofl
 
You want us to believe that not only did you intentionally include a contradicting premise, but that because this premise invalidates your argument, this proves that some other unrelated body of scientific theory that you don't agree with is invalid?:rofl

I did that because its your inability of logic to understand the concept I am showing.

The NeS paradox forever

1. time is constant.
2. The computer existed forever.
3. The computer calculated 1 digit of pi a second.
4. The computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits by the time our state of existence.


The NeS paradox beginning

1. time is constant.
2. The computer came in to existence at a point of time.
3. The computer calculated 1 digit of pi a second.
4. The computer would have calculated a certain amount of digits by the time our state of existence.

And you say that matter has existed forever?

One paradox appears to be the correct one, the NeS paradox beginning. Why is that?
 
The NeS paradox forever

It is not your paradox. It is merely a poorly stated Cosmological Argument.

1. time is constant.
2. The computer existed forever.
3. The computer calculated 1 digit of pi a second.
4. The computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits by the time our state of existence.

When did the computer start calculating pi?

The only way for the computer to be calculating pi is for the calculation to have a starting point.

If you want to say that the computer has existed forever (2), and that it has been calculating pi for all of it's existence, then you basic premise falls down. In order to be calculating pi, there had to be a starting point. If there is a starting point, then the calculation has not been going on eternally.

That is the contradiction that leads to your supposed paradox. You are trying to say that the computer has existed forever but you are also trying to simultaneously give it a starting point.
 
It is not your paradox. It is merely a poorly stated Cosmological Argument.



When did the computer start calculating pi?

The only way for the computer to be calculating pi is for the calculation to have a starting point.

If you want to say that the computer has existed forever (2), and that it has been calculating pi for all of it's existence, then you basic premise falls down. In order to be calculating pi, there had to be a starting point. If there is a starting point, then the calculation has not been going on eternally.

That is the contradiction that leads to your supposed paradox. You are trying to say that the computer has existed forever but you are also trying to simultaneously give it a starting point.

So if a computer can't do any thing or exist without a starting point, why do you insist matter can do something without a starting point? You say a computer can't calculate pi without a starting point, yet how can matter interact forever without a starting point? Each interaction is mathematically made from past interactions.
 
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The NeS paradox...

Step 1 - Assume time is constant.

Step 2 - Assume matter in this universe existed for an infinite amount of time.

Step 3 - Hypothetically assume that a computer that has always existed (and that this computer doesn't use power, change form, change shape, give off heat, never crashes, etc) calculated one more digit of pi every second.

Step 4 - Hypothetically assume today and we go check what the last digit of pi that the computer calculated.
Ok. Always up for a good thought experiment.


If the computer has existed forever, then pi would have been calculated since an infinite number of digits would be calculated.
Ohhh. Nope. Infinite means it can never be fully calculated. This is the definition of infinity. The computer will continue to calculate digits of pi forever.

If the computer has not existed forever, then it would still be calculating pi.
As it would be had it existed forever.

Pick what you logically think is correct then answer below.

At what time would the computer stop calculating pi?
Infinity divided by infinity undefined. If you add every odd number together, and then divide that by every other even, that's dividing infinity by infinity. Neither has a limit, thus anyone who has taken calculus 101 knows there is no answer.

Would it be a finite or infinite number of years ago?
Neither.


Conclusion: If the computer has calculated pi an infinite number of years ago, then it could calculate pi an infinite number of times. Which isn't possible since pi is infinitely long.
Correct. What is with all your premises above where you said exactly the opposite?

Pi would first have to be fully calculated before pi can be calculated again.
Now we're back to the point that you cannot fully calculate it.
The main point being that we could never see what digit of pi the computer is on because the current state of time we go do that would never come.
Sure we could. In fact at whatever point in time we exist in we could see the current digit if your computer existed.

Now apply this concept to matter in the universe existing for an infinite amount of time without being created. A computer that existed for an infinite amount of time calculating pi shows us that this isn't possible.
This is a non-sequitur. Even if I grant you your mind bafflingly silly premises your conclusion doesn't logically follow.
 
Ok. Always up for a good thought experiment.


Ohhh. Nope. Infinite means it can never be fully calculated. This is the definition of infinity. The computer will continue to calculate digits of pi forever.

Then if it continued to calculate digits of pi forever our state of existence would never come.


As it would be had it existed forever.
Infinity divided by infinity undefined. If you add every odd number together, and then divide that by every other even, that's dividing infinity by infinity. Neither has a limit, thus anyone who has taken calculus 101 knows there is no answer.
Neither.
This is a non-sequitur. Even if I grant you your mind bafflingly silly premises your conclusion doesn't logically follow.


I'm just going to reply with this again and again. If the computer never calculated "3.14", then it never even started to calculate pi. How could the computer be calculating pi if it has never even started calculating it?

The computer never calculated an infinite digits of pi actually. The computer did not calculate "3.141" and "3.1415" and so on. If it calculated "3.141" then you would know the computer started 4 seconds earlier. If it calculated "3.1415" then you would know the computer started 5 seconds earlier and so on.

This means that any number that spits out of the computer is based on a finite amount of digits and thus has had a creation point.

Since each number relies on what digit of pi is being calculated, we can now conclude that if the digit that the computer is calculating is undefined, then the product calculated from the digit is also undefined.

All of this matters since of course, matter today at present interacts. If matter existed forever then, it would have to interact forever. If has interacted at any defined time period, then there is a cause for its spontaneous interaction and or creation. If matter today interacts from the cause of matter interacting forever, then the interaction of matter today would be undefined, just as the digit being calculated for pi would be undefined. Its not possible.

Every new digit that the computer calculates from pi must have a finite amount of digits. You can't calculate from an undefined number of digits.

Since time is progressive, an actual infinite amount of time can not pass.
Time is unbounded, going towards potential infinity, yet time won't ever reach the value of infinity.
For example: there will always be X number of years from your existence.
There won't ever be an undefined number of years from your existence.

Ohhh. Nope. Infinite means it can never be fully calculated. This is the definition of infinity. The computer will continue to calculate digits of pi forever.

Actually your wrong, since the computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits. Pi would have been calculated.

Math Forum: Ask Dr. Math FAQ: 0.9999... = 1


Let each digit of pi be represented by a digit of "9" added after the decimal point.

Let each digit calculated by the computer be represented by a digit of "9" added after the decimal point.

computer calculating digits = 0.9999... (infinite amount of 9's.)
pi = 0.9999...(infinite amount of 9's.)

Thus x = 0.9999...
10x = 9.9999...
10x - x = 9.9999... - 0.9999...
9x = 9
x = 1

Both equal 1, which means the computer has calculated pi.
 
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So if a computer can't do any thing or exist without a starting point, why do you insist matter can do something without a starting point?

I'm not saying that it can't exist without a starting point. I'm saying that if it is calculating pi, that calculation has to have a starting point.

If you are saying that the computer has been calculating pi for all of it's existence, then you are saying that the computer had to have a beginning because it is doing something that requires a starting point.

You say a computer can't calculate pi without a starting point,

Exactly, the calculation of pi requires a starting point.

I have no logical problem with the eternal computer.

yet how can matter interact forever without a starting point?

Nobody says that it doesn't.

All the matter in the current state of the unverse had a starting point in the Big Bang.

There's your starting interaction point.

To apply your analogy, that is when the computer started calculating pi.
 
Then if it continued to calculate digits of pi forever our state of existence would never come.
Non-sequitur again. You have no logical reason to believe this.


I'm just going to reply with this again and again. If the computer never calculated "3.14", then it never even started to calculate pi. How could the computer be calculating pi if it has never even started calculating it?
Good point...Looks like god can't exist seeings how god is the ultimate infinity.

The computer never calculated an infinite digits of pi actually. The computer did not calculate "3.141" and "3.1415" and so on. If it calculated "3.141" then you would know the computer started 4 seconds earlier. If it calculated "3.1415" then you would know the computer started 5 seconds earlier and so on.
Well that's because you've chosen an infinite series with a more or less arbitrary starting point. I could do the same with every number after 57. Looks like you've figured out why your thought experiment fails huh?

This means that any number that spits out of the computer is based on a finite amount of digits and thus has had a creation point.
Again, you've defined it this way. It doesn't fail if you choose a series integers - positive or negative.

Since each number relies on what digit of pi is being calculated, we can now conclude that if the digit that the computer is calculating is undefined, then the product calculated from the digit is also undefined.

All of this matters since of course, matter today at present interacts. If matter existed forever then, it would have to interact forever. If has interacted at any defined time period, then there is a cause for its spontaneous interaction and or creation. If matter today interacts from the cause of matter interacting forever, then the interaction of matter today would be undefined, just as the digit being calculated for pi would be undefined. Its not possible.
Pi isn't a calculated value. It's just a relation between two lengths. The digits have always been there and will always be there. Your confused in thinking the computer is calculating something that in reality is already there. The computer is doing nothing but telling us about how things already are.

Every new digit that the computer calculates from pi must have a finite amount of digits. You can't calculate from an undefined number of digits.
Every digit must have a finite amount of digits? What does that even mean?
 
I'm not saying that it can't exist without a starting point. I'm saying that if it is calculating pi, that calculation has to have a starting point.

If you are saying that the computer has been calculating pi for all of it's existence, then you are saying that the computer had to have a beginning because it is doing something that requires a starting point.



Exactly, the calculation of pi requires a starting point.

I have no logical problem with the eternal computer.



Nobody says that it doesn't.

All the matter in the current state of the unverse had a starting point in the Big Bang.

There's your starting interaction point.

To apply your analogy, that is when the computer started calculating pi.

And what caused the big bang? An interaction? How can your state of existence come when time is progressive? Time is just like pi, it can be represented by a series and set of numbers.

Well that's because you've chosen an infinite series with a more or less arbitrary starting point. I could do the same with every number after 57. Looks like you've figured out why your thought experiment fails huh?

How about this -- If interaction had no beginning, then interaction never started. Interaction today would be based off of undefined interaction.

Now think about my thought experiment. :)

If you thought carefully, the computer never even started to calculate digits of pi. Yet it completed an infinite amount of digits. And the computer never calculated a digit. If it calculated a digit, it would be a finite amount of digits away from "3.14" and would have a beginning. Since all natural numbers are finite.

How is this logical?!

Every digit must have a finite amount of digits? What does that even mean?

I must've edited the post while you were replying.
 
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Actually your wrong, since the computer would have calculated an infinite amount of digits. Pi would have been calculated.

Math Forum: Ask Dr. Math FAQ: 0.9999... = 1
No. You're wrong. You're confused about what infinity is. By the way,
lim x->0 (x+1)^(1/x) = 1^infinity=e

Limits cause things to do screwy things.



Let each digit of pi be represented by a digit of "9" added after the decimal point.

Let each digit calculated by the computer be represented by a digit of "9" added after the decimal point.

computer calculating digits = 0.9999... (infinite amount of 9's.)
pi = 0.9999...(infinite amount of 9's.)
This makes no sense. What math have you taken?

Both equal 1, which means the computer has calculated pi.
No, the pi you defined to be 1 equals one. The real pi does not. This is idiotic.
 
I'm just going to reply with this again and again. If the computer never calculated "3.14", then it never even started to calculate pi. How could the computer be calculating pi if it has never even started calculating it?

That is exactly the contradiction that is in your premise.

You are saying the computer has always existed, it has no beginning. Then you are also saying that when the computer began, it started calculating pi.

You are trying to assign the cumputer two opposing characteristics, that it has no beginning (it's eternal) and that it has a beginning (it started when it started calculating pi.

The computer never calculated an infinite digits of pi actually. The computer did not calculate "3.141" and "3.1415" and so on. If it calculated "3.141" then you would know the computer started 4 seconds earlier. If it calculated "3.1415" then you would know the computer started 5 seconds earlier and so on.

Exactly.

When you say that the computer has been calculating pi for all of it's existence, you are defining it's starting point: when it began calculating pi.

You are trying to say that it cannot have existed eternally because you are defining it to have a starting point.
 
And what caused the big bang? An interaction? How can your state of existence come when time is progressive? Time is just like pi, it can be represented by a series and set of numbers.
Time behaves quite differently 1) when you approach the speed of light, and 2)Near the boarders of the time-space continuum.



How about this -- If interaction had no beginning, then interaction never started. Interaction today would be based off of undefined interaction.
Then apply this with the interworkings of a "God" who starts the interactions.

Now think about my thought experiment. :)

If you thought carefully, the computer never even started to calculate digits of pi. Yet it completed an infinite amount of digits. And the computer never calculated a digit. If it calculated a digit, it would be a finite amount of digits away from "3.14" and would have a beginning. Since all natural numbers are finite.
See my reply above.

I must've edited the post while you were replying.
If you're talking to me, I saw it.
 
No. You're wrong. You're confused about what infinity is. By the way,
lim x->0 (x+1)^(1/x) = 1^infinity=e


No, I made pi and the amount of digits the computer calculated represent another digit of "9' after the decimal point!

0.999... (an infinite amount of 9's) = 1, do you agree?

So, if i made the amount of digits that the computer has calculated represent - 0.999...

And made the amount of digits that pi represents - 0.999....

0.999... = 0.999...

1=1
0=0

both are equal so your wrong

Limits cause things to do screwy things.
[/COLOR]

Such as time, time has no limit yet there will never be a time when there is an undefined amount of years from any event.


This makes no sense. What math have you taken?

No, the pi you defined to be 1 equals one. The real pi does not. This is idiotic.

Rofl, Lets just assume...

pi = 3.141...

Let [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] = 9

pi = 9.999...

Now lets shift that decimal 1 over

pi = 0.999...


Lets assume that for every digit that the computer would supposedly calculate as another 9 added after the decimal

computer = 0.999...
pi = 0.999...

0.999... = 1

1=1
pi = computer
 
No, I made pi and the amount of digits the computer calculated represent another digit of "9' after the decimal point!

0.999... (an infinite amount of 9's) = 1, do you agree?

So, if i made the amount of digits that the computer has calculated represent - 0.999...

And made the amount of digits that pi represents - 0.999....

0.999... = 0.999...
So you've taken pi, and made it not pi, and then expect me to believe that now you've proven pi=1. I'm getting dumber having this conversation.

1=1
0=0

both are equal so your wrong
LEARN TO SPELL YOU'RE.


Such as time, time has no limit yet there will never be a time when there is an undefined amount of years from any event.
Time is nothing besides a set of relations between events. You cannot have events without time, and cannot have time without events.




Rofl, Lets just assume...
That you have no idea what you're talking about? Way ahead of you.

pi = 3.141...<-------THIS PI

Let [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8] = 9

pi = 9.999...<------Does NOT equal this pi except that the combination of the letters p and i are being used as a variable which you are now defining.

Now lets shift that decimal 1 over

pi = 0.999...


Lets assume that for every digit that the computer would supposedly calculate as another 9 added after the decimal

computer = 0.999...
pi = 0.999...

0.999... = 1

1=1
pi = computer
Yes, I can define variables as well. Now we're not talking about pi or a computer, we're talking about letters placed together as a variable. Your ramblings are getting asinine.
 
And what caused the big bang?

I don't know. Nobody does. It's very possible that we never will. It may not be possible for us to ever know about anything prior to the Big Bang.

However, that really has nothing to do with your restatement of the Cosmological Argument.

An interaction? How can your state of existence come when time is progressive? Time is just like pi, it can be represented by a series and set of numbers.

There's your contradiction again.

You are trying to say that time cannot be eternal because you are trying to define it to have a begining.

You are saying that it is just like pi. Pi has a begining. Therefore, you are defining time to have a begining.

Then you try to use that premise to prove itself.
 
If I might add one last thing to maybe clarify something for nes. Just because we can define an infinite series as a non-infinite fraction .9999...=.3333+.3333+.3333=1/3+1/3+1/3=1/1 and 3.1415=pi=C(ircumference)/D(iameter) doesn't take away from their infiniteness.
 
I don't know. Nobody does. It's very possible that we never will. It may not be possible for us to ever know about anything prior to the Big Bang.

However, that really has nothing to do with your restatement of the Cosmological Argument.

There's your contradiction again.

You are trying to say that time cannot be eternal because you are trying to define it to have a begining.

You are saying that it is just like pi. Pi has a begining. Therefore, you are defining time to have a begining.

Then you try to use that premise to prove itself.

Time itself can never reach actual infinity, no matter how fast it goes. Actual infinity is unattainable because all natural numbers are finite.

You can pick any number. No matter how high and there will always be a number greater than it. All numbers are finite, infinity is just a concept. To say that there was no beginning while our state of existence shows time is progressive is absurd. The computer calculating pi was doing it progressively, because it calculated 1 digit of pi every second, not 1 digit of pi every 0 seconds. If the computer calculated pi without time, then it would not be progressive.

Pi must have a beginning, just as forces interacting with atoms/subatomic particles must have a beginning also. What would cause a certain interaction between atoms / subatomic particles at present if the interactions went on forever undefined? This is the same as the computer still calculating pi digits without even starting to calculate "3.14". How would it give out numbers without having a defined number of digits from the decimal point?

What caused the big bang to give off a finite amount of matter? Why not more? Why not less? Why that certain amount?

How do you know that the big bang wasn't just a huge cosmological event and that there are other "big bangs" out there, how do we even know that universe "walls" exist, past which have nothing?

See, we have no evidence of this, yet scientist want to conclude this is what happened.
 
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