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My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

Why would a parent choose to have a child be transgendered? They would want their child born with the gendered body that aligns with their psychological gender identity, unless you want to see your child suffer and have to undergo years of treatment to even be halfway comfortable in their own body?

So you're saying...

What *rational* parent would want a deaf child - the suffering.

What *rational* parent would want a gay child - the suffering.

What *rational* parent would want a child who is in any way part of a minority - the suffering.

Correct?
 
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So you're saying...

What *rational* parent would want a deaf child - the suffering.

What *rational* parent would want a gay child - the suffering.

What *rational* parent would want a child who is in any way part of a minority - the suffering.

Correct?
No, as usual, you are not correct.

It's not about being part of a minority because we are all part of a minority group in some way. . It is the long term medical care that still doesn't give them the ability to be complete. I am 100% supportive of transgendered people but they would have rather been born in the right body then have to undergo treatment and take hormones for the rest of their life.

If you asked transgendered people they don't want to be trans They would much prefer to have the full, functional and complete body that aligns with the psychological gender identity.
 
No, as usual, you are not correct.

It's not about being part of a minority because we are all part of a minority group in some way. . It is the long term medical care that still doesn't give them the ability to be complete. I am 100% supportive of transgendered people but they would have rather been born in the right body then have to undergo treatment and take hormones for the rest of their life.

If you asked transgendered people they don't want to be trans They would much prefer to have the full, functional and complete body that aligns with the psychological gender identity.

Honestly, I think you mean well.

But you're saying that trans folk are less than, and not wanted by rational parents.
 
But you were associating them strongly with...or questioning the relationship with...outward presentation of a gender.

As I said before, if gender is but an internal emotional state, then we may as well concede there are over 7 billion genders.
 
Honestly, I think you mean well.

But you're saying that trans folk are less than, and not wanted by rational parents.
Those are your words and ideas because I don't support those ideas and I would never even consider it.

No parents wants their child to suffer, to not be happy and be bullied.
 
As I said before, if gender is but an internal emotional state, then we may as well concede there are over 7 billion genders.

Gender is a both a physical and psychological, but gender expression is unique to each of us.
 
Um nope. We were specifically discussing gender-based presentations like dress, makeup (on none), how one presents themself...based on the gender they feel. Not for other reasons.

If one is a 'social creature,' wouldnt one want to make more of the effort to fit in rather than present as one identifies?

(Yes, I agree that humans are social creatures...and this is what makes this so sad and so difficult for many LBGT...the conflict between trying to fit in and trying to be who they are.)

I think the problem here is you cannot define the question in a meaningful way. What does it mean to feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a woman? What defines what is masculine and what is feminine so I can ascribe a label to what I am feeling?
 
Gender is a both a physical and psychological, but gender expression is unique to each of us.

So in essence you see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
 
So in essence you see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

How they express their gender is a social construct but how they see themselves is both physical and psychological gender. They are disgusted by their own bodies because they do not align with who they are and will not fully allow them to express who they are to both themselves and others.
 
How they express their gender is a social construct but how they see themselves is both physical and psychological gender. They are disgusted by their own bodies because they do not align with who they are and will not fully allow them to express who they are to both themselves and others.

It is this concept of "psychological gender" that I can't ever seem to get a straight answer about beyond "this is how they feel". I find aspects of my body disgusting, but I have adapted and incorporated that into my identity. People lose limbs or are disfigured but they adapt. This whole "not fully allow them to express who they are to both themselves and others" seems to be a self defeating belief. Whether you have a penis or vagina does not inhibit you from expression.

I can't really see surgery to remove a penis to allow a trans person to feel like more of a woman as any less superficial than a woman augmenting her breasts to feel more like a woman. Neither modification is really necessary, it serves more to manage a person's dissatisfaction with their body.
 
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As I said before, if gender is but an internal emotional state, then we may as well concede there are over 7 billion genders.

I asked you if those trappings would change your identity...turn you from male to female (the way you identified yourself). You said you could be conditioned to it.

That has nothing to do with someone feeling that way from birth or from when they were conscious of gender/very young.

So how do you see that as the same as what you just wrote? Someone not consciously making the call...but recognizing it in themselves?
 
I think the problem here is you cannot define the question in a meaningful way. What does it mean to feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a woman? What defines what is masculine and what is feminine so I can ascribe a label to what I am feeling?

Not really. How many people question their sexual orientation? Isnt that more than 'just a feeling?' It is for me.

And while some people may fill in a range with respect to orientation (it may not be black & white), it's still clearly an instinctive singular drive for most.
 
Not really. How many people question their sexual orientation? Isnt that more than 'just a feeling?' It is for me.

And while some people may fill in a range with respect to orientation (it may not be black & white), it's still clearly an instinctive singular drive for most.

I think sexual orientation is a lot easier. There was a very distinct physiological reaction I have had with men that I don't have with women. It isn't just a feeling.

I don't doubt that trans people genuinely feel like a particular gender, but what is not clear is if that feeling in itself constitutes gender. At this point liberals now have to invent new gender names that have no basis in the physical world because people feel that way in their own minds.
 
I think sexual orientation is a lot easier. There was a very distinct physiological reaction I have had with men that I don't have with women. It isn't just a feeling.

I don't doubt that trans people genuinely feel like a particular gender, but what is not clear is if that feeling in itself constitutes gender. At this point liberals now have to invent new gender names that have no basis in the physical world because people feel that way in their own minds.

And you are assuming that the gender identity conflict is "less distinct" than your feelings? After reading and hearing about the lengths they go thru to try and be who they are? Sorry, to me that is no argument at all.

It's no different than many homophobes make about gays.
 
And you are assuming that the gender identity conflict is "less distinct" than your feelings? After reading and hearing about the lengths they go thru to try and be who they are? Sorry, to me that is no argument at all.

It's no different than many homophobes make about gays.

I disagree. They are distinctly different.
 
Those are your words and ideas because I don't support those ideas and I would never even consider it.

No parents wants their child to suffer, to not be happy and be bullied.

Those are your words, though I don't think you grasp what you've said.

And oops - you did it again:

You've once again said that no *rational* parent wants gay children, differently abled children, minority children.
 
Those are your words, though I don't think you grasp what you've said.

And oops - you did it again:

You've once again said that no *rational* parent wants gay children, differently abled children, minority children.

I'm not sure if you are deliberately twisting my words to support your opinions or if you are simple unable to understand what I am saying because of an intellectual problem.
Life is hard for people when they have a disability and it is hard for the parents to see a child suffer and have to work harder than others and no child wants to see a child hurt. I am not saying that a parent doesn't want a child that is different, as you are trying to insinuate. I never one said or even hinted at what you are tying to put in my mouth. If this is what you are tying to do then dont bother replying because I'm tired of your childish game.
sick
Being transgendered is very painful and a parent doesn't want a child to have to be an outsider and be bullied and a target for bigots as most transgendered kids are. Trans kids are much different from their friends as teens and that is also difficult for the child and makes their life harder than it should be especially when being a teen is already tough. As a parent it hurts when your child is in pain and doesn't feel good or is treated as an outsider and you want to make it right but there are something that parent love or assistance cant fix and that makes it hard on you when you can't do anything to help them be happy.
 
I'm not sure if you are deliberately twisting my words to support your opinions or if you are simple unable to understand what I am saying because of an intellectual problem.
Life is hard for people when they have a disability and it is hard for the parents to see a child suffer and have to work harder than others and no child wants to see a child hurt. I am not saying that a parent doesn't want a child that is different, as you are trying to insinuate. I never one said or even hinted at what you are tying to put in my mouth. If this is what you are tying to do then dont bother replying because I'm tired of your childish game.
sick
Being transgendered is very painful and a parent doesn't want a child to have to be an outsider and be bullied and a target for bigots as most transgendered kids are. Trans kids are much different from their friends as teens and that is also difficult for the child and makes their life harder than it should be especially when being a teen is already tough. As a parent it hurts when your child is in pain and doesn't feel good or is treated as an outsider and you want to make it right but there are something that parent love or assistance cant fix and that makes it hard on you when you can't do anything to help them be happy.

I'll say it again: I think you mean well. :thumbs:

But your views remind me (most) of those who insist that deaf children are imperfect, and can be *improved* by the *gift* of hearing.

What *rational* parent would want an *imperfect* deaf child?

I think we're talking past each other at this point - our words falling upon deaf ears as it were - so no need to continue.

Maybe some day you'll get what I'm saying.

:peace
 
I disagree. They are distinctly different.

You are just assuming that, when you are here, clearly questioning gender identity.

I didnt say they were the same...I said that they could be inborn the same.
 
I'll say it again: I think you mean well. :thumbs:

But your views remind me (most) of those who insist that deaf children are imperfect, and can be *improved* by the *gift* of hearing.

What *rational* parent would want an *imperfect* deaf child?

I think we're talking past each other at this point - our words falling upon deaf ears as it were - so no need to continue.

Maybe some day you'll get what I'm saying.

:peace

I never said anything of what you are saying. You are trying to suggest that I agree with you and I abhor your ideas. Either knock it off or don't reply to me.

I am not saying that they are imperfect.
 
Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

There are factors that you are purposely avoiding and not taking into account. There is the idea that you know what a person is thinking therefore you have the answer...despite the fact that you have no training in psychology or biochemistry of the human body. You made an assumption with nothing to back it with. Meanwhile, there are psychologists and psychiatrists who study this very issue and will look at your pop-culture assumption and tell you that it is far more complex than that.

A transgender person feels out of place in their own body. It is not an emulation they are seeking as you suggest, but balance between mind and body. Social norms have nothing to do with it. The mind believes itself to be one sex, but the body is of another and the reconciliation is difficult at best. That is not a social construct, but a mental state of being. That mental state can also be compounded if the person is also born with an imbalance of hormones. And again, that has nothing to do with social construct. In other words, the mind is not feminine because it wants to be feminine...but because the mind itself IS feminine. Or vice versa, or whatever, you get the idea. There is no choice. It is what it is.

You are making the assumption that the mind is always the same as the body, therefore the reason for changing sexes in some way or form is an act of choice. That is incorrect. Psychology pretty much tells us that your assumption is wrong. Now, its up to you to accept that (which you probably won't as it doesn't fit your worldview) or not. And we haven't even started on talking about intersex persons....and that concept TOTALLY blows your theory right out of the water.....
 
Do you think that doctors don't bother to get the informed consent of transgender patients before treating them?

There is too much pressure to be "gender affirming" and politically correct.
 
Can I, a woman who so happens to be trans, live her life freely in America, land of the free, without being bothered, judged, or criticized?

I work hard, i dont ask for handouts, I help people in a hospital. What more do you want from me? Why can't I just be respected? I dont get it?

I don't think anyone here wants to interfere with your personal life. I think we are saying that the trans concept might be a myth. And that the medical interventions might be causing unnecessary harm.
 
While you make some good overall points, the female brain is markedly different in many ways from the male.

So you are arguing for sex discrimination? Women are less qualified for certain jobs? Maybe they should remain in the kitchen, where their female brain can excel?
 
So if someone identifies as a specific gender, arent they going to (want to) present that gender to the rest of the world? In dress, behavior, choices, etc?

And if that helps validate that identity, then why is it wrong to do what it takes to more fully validate that identity?

Some of us here are trying to explain that gender identity is mostly cultural. Do people really have to be such conformists, that they must fit into one of the 2 gender roles? Really?
 
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