My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

[dairyair]

There is actually evidence to support the idea of gender identity being innate. David Reimer was a Canadian boy whose penis was accidentally burnt off during circumcision. His parents then attempted to raise him as a girl with the help of a Psychologist from Johns Hopkins named John Money. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this was unsuccessful, as David Reimer transitioned back to living as a man before ultimately committing suicide.

David Reimer is not nor ever has been a trans person.
I doubt a non trans person can ever be a trans person. Other than pretending.


Like a gay person can never be a straight person. But that doesn't stop gay people from ever having sex or relationships with opposite sex.

Both, IMO, are ingrained into one's being, somehow.

 

[CriticalThought]

300M American. 300M reasons one will be proud to be an American.
Or for a certain percentage, not proud to be an American. Some of time or maybe all of the time?

Sorry if I misunderstand your posting on this topic. It seemed at one point I took you as thinking trans folks are, for lack of a better term, nuts. Not living in reality.
But I say, there reality is different than ours, ie non trans.
And IMO, not better or worse. For I don't know. But they do.

I don't think they are anymore nuts than any of us.

 

[CriticalThought]

David Reimer is not nor ever has been a trans person.
I doubt a non trans person can ever be a trans person. Other than pretending.


Like a gay person can never be a straight person. But that doesn't stop gay people from ever having sex or relationships with opposite sex.

Both, IMO, are ingrained into one's being, somehow.

At best you could say he is anecdotal evidence you cannot impose a gender identity on someone who is not a trans person.

 

[dairyair]

At best you could say he is anecdotal evidence you cannot impose a gender identity on someone who is not a trans person.

Exactly.

But in most cases, that isn't what one talks about.
No one should ever be forced. It should always be the individuals decision along with their psychiatrist.

 

[Lursa]

I think I more or less said so in my OP.

But you were associating them strongly with...or questioning the relationship with...outward presentation of a gender.

 

[Good4Nothin]

A LITTLE bit.

The human genome is huge, with links and relations we don't, and may NEVER know or understand.

Fiddling around with it isn't as safe and easy as some may think it is.

I always tell people to take college Microbiology.

Interesting class and good at showing how really complex even the "simplest" life forms are.

We're fantasizing when we believe we can tinker around, or make "changes," improvements so easily.

Even the simplest organisms display extreme and baffling intelligence. No, scientists have not figured out how these creatures do all those amazing things. And yet some people think scientists can understand US.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Would your gender identity change at all, for you, depending on what you wore or didnt wear? Or demonstrate to the world?

We tend to act differently, depending on how we appear to the world. And how we act can influence how we feel. And others respond to us, which again influences how we feel. Our relationships with society are complex networks. As you may have already heard, we are not islands.

So gender roles have an effect on our lives. Just like whether or not you are good-looking has an effect on your life. Or your ethnicity, or your age.

That doesn't mean cutting off parts of yourself is a sane idea.

 

[Good4Nothin]

The unknown is unknown, wow, thanks for explaining that to me. Can you now explain to me how we go about learning things? Oh wait it's by experimentation, by research. The only way to learn how effective gender reassignment is, and how to improve it, is to research those who undergo it. I support this scientific process of technological advancement.

So these drastic experiments are an important way of finding out if they do more harm or more good. In other words, the transgenders are guinea pigs.

 

[Good4Nothin]

As far as I understand gender reassignment does not involve any genetic changes. Just hormone therapy and sometimes surgery. But perhaps new technologies will become available in the future.

Well perhaps. Anything is possible. Perhaps pigs will fly, thanks to genetic engineering.

No, gender reassignment has NOTHING to do with genetics. They hardly know how to do anything medical with genetics.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Your facts are opinions because I am citing medical science.

Yeah, and you think medical science has shown that a person's brain can be the wrong gender. :lamo

 

[Irredentist]

Well perhaps. Anything is possible. Perhaps pigs will fly, thanks to genetic engineering.

No, gender reassignment has NOTHING to do with genetics. They hardly know how to do anything medical with genetics.

Hey, if dinosaurs can fly, who's to say a pig couldn't?

 

[Irredentist]

So these drastic experiments are an important way of finding out if they do more harm or more good. In other words, the transgenders are guinea pigs.

Of course. Ever heard of a clinical trial before? When you're developing a new treatment for humans, eventually you have to start testing on humans. Shocking I know.

 

[Lisa]

Yeah, and you think medical science has shown that a person's brain can be the wrong gender. :lamo

That is the current state of medical science. Can you put forth any evidence that suggests otherwise because your attempts to attack me and your beliefs arent sufficient.

MRI scans suggest transgender people’s brains resemble their identified gender: study - National | Globalnews.ca

Gender differences in the structural connectome of the teenage brain revealed by generalized q-sampling MRI - ScienceDirect

 

[Good4Nothin]

Thank you. That assumes you had a goal in mind by presenting yourself that way.

And that it's conditioning...not natural brain chemistry. So there would have to be a choice to 'condition' oneself. (since according to you, the presentation of dress, attitude, would come first and create the conditioning.)

So then you believe that you could be conditioned to identify as a woman?

Interesting. The evidence indicates that the identity drives the dress, attitude, etc, rather than the opposite I mean, why is the person dressing, acting, like that if not because that's how they identify? (I dont mean actors, of course)

It doesn't necessarily mean that's how they identify. We often dress for a purpose. Dress for success - wear a tie, etc., to fit in at a job. Not how you want to dress, not how you dress at home.

If you dress as a woman, you get treated certain ways, in certain contexts. It is not so simple as just dressing how you feel.

When I don't expect to see anyone, I dress to stay warm. I don't comb my hair. Dressing is a strategy to make an impression.

So it's the same thing for transgenders. It's part of being a social creature. Of estimating the reaction you will get for whatever fashions you decide on.

 

[Good4Nothin]

We change our brain chemistry all the time by what choices we make. Identity is pretty fickle. This idea that it is fixed, innate, and immutable is very recent and has very little evidence to support it aside from, "they told me this is how they feel".

Yeah.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Of course. Ever heard of a clinical trial before? When you're developing a new treatment for humans, eventually you have to start testing on humans. Shocking I know.

Researchers are supposed to follow ethical guidelines.

 

[Irredentist]

Researchers are supposed to follow ethical guidelines.

Do you think that doctors don't bother to get the informed consent of transgender patients before treating them?

 

[MissMollyMe]

Can I, a woman who so happens to be trans, live her life freely in America, land of the free, without being bothered, judged, or criticized?

I work hard, i dont ask for handouts, I help people in a hospital. What more do you want from me? Why can't I just be respected? I dont get it?

 

[3leftsdoo]

Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

Some good points.

 

[3leftsdoo]

What is a "female mind"? As I stated in my post, while there are neurological differences between the genders, they are not so significant as to be distinguishable from one another in just about any metric. What possible test could you give somebody that would discern whether their mind is male or female?

I would say your definition is proving my point. A trans person is making the decision that their mind is a particular gender based on the only thing they have to compare it to, the gender stereotypes constructed by their culture. A "female mind" is a mind that identifies with the things one's culture has denoted are feminine.

While you make some good overall points, the female brain is markedly different in many ways from the male.

 

[3leftsdoo]

No rational parent wants their child to be transgendered or tries to convince their CIS child that they are transgendered. That is an absurd misstatement of the situation. Supportive parents whose children exhibit signs of being transgender merely want them to get the necessary and effective care so they are happy.

Wow.

Transphobic commentary from an unexpected source.

 

[3leftsdoo]

I basically agree with you. I think undergoing surgery and taking hormones for life is a terrible health risk, and it's really for nothing.

But I do think there are some real male/female differences that are not cultural. Men are more aggressive, more violent. They evolved to be the defenders of the tribe. Women are more nurturing -- they evolved to take care of babies and children.

But still, there is no reason to "transition" to the other sex. For one thing, most of the time trans people look unnatural. Women with wide shoulders, narrow hips and angular faces. Short men with narrow shoulders and wide hips. But also, we have a lot of freedom in our society now. If you want to be a non-traditional male or females, you can be. Some people will give you a hard time, but many will accept you.

It is MUCH healthier to live as a non-traditional male or female than to take hormones for life. And it is TERRIBLE that they now give puberty blocking drugs to young children, preventing them from developing naturally.

Some excellent points.

 

[Lursa]

We tend to act differently, depending on how we appear to the world. And how we act can influence how we feel. And others respond to us, which again influences how we feel. Our relationships with society are complex networks. As you may have already heard, we are not islands.

So gender roles have an effect on our lives. Just like whether or not you are good-looking has an effect on your life. Or your ethnicity, or your age.

That doesn't mean cutting off parts of yourself is a sane idea.

So if someone identifies as a specific gender, arent they going to (want to) present that gender to the rest of the world? In dress, behavior, choices, etc?

And if that helps validate that identity, then why is it wrong to do what it takes to more fully validate that identity?

 

[Lisa]

Wow.

Transphobic commentary from an unexpected source.

Why would a parent choose to have a child be transgendered? They would want their child born with the gendered body that aligns with their psychological gender identity, unless you want to see your child suffer and have to undergo years of treatment to even be halfway comfortable in their own body?

 

[Lursa]

It doesn't necessarily mean that's how they identify. We often dress for a purpose. Dress for success - wear a tie, etc., to fit in at a job. Not how you want to dress, not how you dress at home.

If you dress as a woman, you get treated certain ways, in certain contexts. It is not so simple as just dressing how you feel.

When I don't expect to see anyone, I dress to stay warm. I don't comb my hair. Dressing is a strategy to make an impression.

So it's the same thing for transgenders. It's part of being a social creature. Of estimating the reaction you will get for whatever fashions you decide on.

Um nope. We were specifically discussing gender-based presentations like dress, makeup (on none), how one presents themself...based on the gender they feel. Not for other reasons.

If one is a 'social creature,' wouldnt one want to make more of the effort to fit in rather than present as one identifies?

(Yes, I agree that humans are social creatures...and this is what makes this so sad and so difficult for many LBGT...the conflict between trying to fit in and trying to be who they are.)