My immigration thesis. (1 Viewer)

[The Philosopher]

EDIT: OH hah, man I'm oblivious, this probably should be in the immigration board, I just noticed that, if a mod could be so kind as to move it, thanks, sorry bout that.

From my website

"So here I am, trying to read up on some relevant news all week, and what do I get half the time? All this talk about "immigration reform."

Now, before I divulge into the inner-machinations of this "issue", lets examine the language.

When someone proposes "reform", that gives one the logical assumption that there is a problem, and unsurprisingly, the zealots are both clammoring for change, for different reasons of course.

The left is calling for immediate citizenship to the millions of "poor, downtrodden, hardworking" illegals.

The right is proposing for a magical border wall and the deportation of millions of "illegal criminals and terrorists that will lead to the loss of jobs for millions of Americans and the end of the Mexican invasion of America."

Yeah, something along those lines.

well, heres the thing....

Both sides are wrong, there is no problem, and there really is no imperative reason for reform.

The left is, as usual,oversentimental and unpractical. Illegals are already getting a easy break, they can just walk across the border without being stopped, while most other immigrants have to go through hell in order to get in. They have no reason to complain, and there is no reason for reform. Most illegals don'tcome here for themselves anyway, they come here for the betterment of their children, which usually happens.

The hard-righters are also as oblivious as ever. Illegals aren't "invading" America, they're not taking any jobs that you'll ever take, they pay their taxes, they contribute in a highly positive way to the economy, they're not a problem at all. Let em be.

While the guest worker program propsed by McCain (my main man for 2008, more on that later) isn't that bad of an idea, which sends illegals back and gives them a chance for citizenship after paying fees and living in the country for 6 years, it really shouldn't go any farther than that. Any reform more lenient is too soft and unfair to other immigrants, and any reform that is harsher is just plain fiscally unsound and dumb.

There is no crisis, you can relax folks, the illegals aren't going to cause the apocalypse."

Doesn't anyone agree with me in that this whole immigration "debate" is unfounded and trivial? Theres nothing to worry about people!

 

[RealmOfThePureForms]

There is no crisis, you can relax folks, the illegals aren't going to cause the apocalypse."

Doesn't anyone agree with me in that this whole immigration "debate" is unfounded and trivial? Theres nothing to worry about people!

.....said the Romans as they brought in so many slaves that the slaves eventually outnumbered the Romans, and well we all know where the Roman Empire is today.

"A revolution is not a bed of roses. A revolution is a struggle to the death between the future and the past. " - Fidel Castro

History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen. - Enoch Powell, British Parliamentarian

 

[The Philosopher]

.....said the Romans as they brought in so many slaves that the slaves eventually outnumbered the Romans, and well we all know where the Roman Empire is today.

"A revolution is not a bed of roses. A revolution is a struggle to the death between the future and the past. " - Fidel Castro

History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen. - Enoch Powell, British Parliamentarian

You're quoting Castro?!!!!

Erm, sorry...

Uhh, do you have a point here? or are you just going to throw quotes at me? Going to quote Stalin next? Marx? Mao?

Looking forward to it!

 

[Kandahar]

You're right, there isn't a serious problem. Illegals aren't an economic problem, but there may be some security problems relating to our porous borders and undocumented people. I'd be willing to trade the construction of a fence, for an increase in the number of legal immigrants we allow in to the country. But it shouldn't be a high priority for the government.

 

[The Philosopher]

Ahh, so we CAN agree on some things!

Anywho, yes, tightening the borders a bit probably wouldn't be a bad idea, thats why I liked McCain's proposal, because not only did it send illegals back so they can come back later to become citizens, but it also tightened border security. Buildking a fence seems a little far-fetched though, wouldn't you agree?

 

[vibeeleven]

Both sides are wrong, there is no problem, and there really is no imperative reason for reform.

I couldn't disagree more.

Taken from previous post in anothe thread:

What do you do about the twelve plus million people

living and working in the United States who came across the

borders illegally? In order to even begin searching for an answer to

this question there are facts that need to be established and a few

other questions that need to be answered. What are the economic and

humanitarian issues? What are the logistical issues involved in

rounding up and deporting over ten million people? Who should be

included and excluded for priority of citizenship? Who should be

eligible for social assistance programs?



The first and perhaps the most important question needs

to be addressed before you can start looking for an answer is what

physically defines a country? Physically a country is defined by it’s

borders, which most people will agree it has a right it regulate and

enforce. Culturally a country is defined by it’s people and customs.

The fact that America is almost impossible to accurately define

culturally is the same thing that makes it so great, diversity. We

wouldn’t be what we are today without immigrants.



Which brings us to the next, more sensitive subject,

immigrants. In recent times the word immigrant has been misused by

special interest groups and their lobbyists as a blanket to

encompass the group that broke the law and cheated the legal

immigrants out of their turn in line. Supporters of amnesty for illegals

and open borders have strategically dropped or replaced the word

illegal in order to draw sympathy for their cause.



Supporters of illegal immigration make the argument that

illegal immigrants do the low paying jobs that most Americans won’t.

Which is single handedly their best argument. Those in favor of a

more strict immigration policy will make a counter argument that the

root of the problem rests with the magnet that draws in and enables

illegal immigrants, the employers who hire them because they will

work for less than Americans and even less than minimum wage in

many cases. I guess you could even go as far as to say that this

aspect of the problem is an unfortunate bi product of capitalism.



As far as economical impact of illegal immigration, we can

take into account that there are immigrants who do pay taxes and pay

into programs like social security. But for everyone who does pay,

there are more who work for cash off the books . This works out

great for employers as well, not only to they get a low wage worker

to fill an unskilled position, but they also get to avoid paying into

things like work mans compensation. The other major aspect of the

issue of illegal immigration economics has to do with use and abuse

in some cases of social programs by those who are here illegally and

for the most part, don’t pay into them. We have special programs in

our educational systems which we spend billions of dollars on,

intended to cater to the needs of many of the illegals. This truth

brings in the humanitarian issue, it’s not the child’s fault, how can

you deny them an education? This sad reality brings us right back to

the root of the problem, the boarders. You can’t have open boarders

in a welfare state. Which is why this problem needs to be addressed

at it’s root. We have Americans in our country we need to be taking

care of before we start shoving them out of line in favor for

someone who came here illegally. The other major economical issue

with illegal immigration is in our healthcare and hospital system. In

the US we are very compassionate about those who can’t afford

medical treatment being able to receive it as needed, the problem is

that again this is program paid for by American taxpayers intended

for Americans who truly can’t afford healthcare, the policy is being

abused by illegal immigrants who come to emergency rooms and

receive medical attention for anything from the common cold, to the

stomach flu, to allergies. I’ve seen and experienced this first hand

here in the emergency rooms of here in California and Arizona.



The bottom line is that if you pardon one group of

illegal immigrants (Mexicans in this case), you have to do it for

everyone and their uncle, which means you have to let in any and

everybody regardless who they are. What’s any ones motivation to

work hard and obey the law when those who break it are rewarded?

There are still even a few issues I neglected to address here but

heck, that’s for another post. The simple solution to this problem is

to secure the borders, if they can’t get here in the first place, you

can’t deny them basic human rights.

Class dismissed.

 

[The Philosopher]

I couldn't disagree more.

Taken from previous post in anothe thread:


Class dismissed.

I dunno man, I just still don't see the problem here. They contribute to teh economy, and generally take jobs no one else wants, its only helping if it really effects anyone at all. McCain's guest worker plan was a great idea, its a shame it wasn't implemented, it punishem them by forcing them to pay a fine and return to Mexico, as well as giving them another opportunity to become legal, whats the problem with that?

 

[vibeeleven]

I dunno man, I just still don't see the problem here. They contribute to teh economy...

Obviousley you read non of my post, otherwise I don't see how you could still draw that conclusion.

 

[Kandahar]

Ahh, so we CAN agree on some things!

Anywho, yes, tightening the borders a bit probably wouldn't be a bad idea, thats why I liked McCain's proposal, because not only did it send illegals back so they can come back later to become citizens, but it also tightened border security. Buildking a fence seems a little far-fetched though, wouldn't you agree?

Building a fence definitely seems a little far-fetched, but I'm sure it is doable if we really need it. I haven't seen any figures on how much it would cost though...If its pricetag is sky-high, it probably isn't worth the marginal benefit to national security (especially because our Canadian border is even MORE porous). This is to say nothing of the ugly symbolism a fence would represent and the nasty impact it would have on US-Mexican relations.

Personally I think that while our government should take some steps to stop illegal immigration, the overall amount of immigration should be INCREASED.

 

[vibeeleven]

Building a fence definitely seems a little far-fetched, but I'm sure it is doable if we really need it.

I'm with you there but you bon't need to build a fence around the entire border, just the hight traffic areas to start, such as brownsville, san diego and nogales.

Personally I think that while our government should take some steps to stop illegal immigration, the overall amount of immigration should be INCREASED.

Bingo.

 

[-Demosthenes-]

.....said the Romans as they brought in so many slaves that the slaves eventually outnumbered the Romans, and well we all know where the Roman Empire is today.

That's some nice racism sentiment, but it's rather backhanded.

If you're going to preach white supremacy, at least do it straight.

I'm with you there but you bon't need to build a fence around the entire border, just the hight traffic areas to start, such as brownsville, san diego and nogales.

That is rather extreme, but I don't know. I rather think that if we can stop illegal immigration by making it easier to come in legally (as long as you are not a criminal and you are willing to learn English) and tightening security, and in a generation all the illegals will be gone, and their children will be full citizens. Problem solved, I think.