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Muslims threaten violence

Kelzie said:
What abrasions love?

Everything in your post in red.....


Kelzie said:
Stop dodging. Do you or do you not believe that liberalism is mirrored by radical Islam? Cause you say you do, then you don't because it's not in the article. Take a stance.

I am not dodging nor do I ever. Liberalism does not mirror Radical Islam. If you get past my intitial error in agreeing with his (Diogenes) post vice the content of his presented aticle, then you would see what I was agreeing with.

Kelzie said:
The article was about how liberals are out of touch because they are threatened by Christianity, but not radical Islam. And I have already said that to some degree that belief is correct. Not once though did that article discuss the similarities between Islam and liberalism, even if you tried really hard to see it.

Ummm..that's what I remarked on. Radical Islam is also threatened by Christianity. Is it not? Could this be a similarity?


Kelzie said:
Now, unless you can find a quote from this article that supports your belief that it is about "how the Liberal voice against Christianity is similar to Radical Islam in a certain form," but more specifically, how "one uses a gun and the other use legislature to silence another religion," I think the more important question is what did you think the article was about?

..Ummmm..exactly what I have typed about. The threat of Christianity has one aggressing with violence and one aggressing with legislature.

Kelzie said:
You can't make up your own definitions and then use them to support your position. Even extreme liberals don't mind if you practice your religion publically. Just as long as the government doesn't practice a religion, which by definition, extends to public institutions maintained by the government, ie schools.

Which means no student will pray in school....the ten commandments be stricken from the concrete in some court houses....any place where "God" is printed is seen as an assault on freedom....etc.

Radical Islam?

Kelzie said:
True. Find me one liberal that is trying to tell people "where, when and how" to worship. Just one.

Ummm..you're one. Christians will not worship (pray) in a public school, they will not read their bibles in a public school...look familiar? It should, you just wrote it. You are substituting their freedom to worship where they please for your freedom to not have to see it. Simply hiding it under a sense that there should be a seperation between church and state is exactly what the article was about. The imaginations of the left that seek to accuse the Christian right of some sort of "infiltrator" have them more fearful of vocal Christians than blood thirsty Islamists.


Kelzie said:
That is a ridiculous stretch and you know it. By definition, one cannot use liberalism (the ideology) to become more conservative (the ideology). However, one can use a liberal interpretation of one's belief to become more conservative. As in "not literal or strict," one of the many definitions of "liberal." But it has nothing to do with the liberal ideology.

Who said anything about ideology? You are thinking too simple with this. This isn't about who does and does not believe in abortion. This is about the sentiment towards Christianity. Where does creativity come from? The Conservitive side? Is the conservative side the true shapers of society or are they the side that looks to stagnate in tradition? It is the Liberal thought that always seek change and re-definitions. It is the creativity of men that allow them to re-define their religions. If this means that they re-define it to suit the needs of individual power then so be it. The act is Liberal - only the result becomes conservative. History is full of men who seek to be creative with their religions and turn tyrant in their journeys - Thomas Muntzer, Phillip II, Osama, etc.

Kelzie said:
Of course, I also believe that liberals are aligning themselves with radical Islams out of spite for the right in the US. But not once does Harris EVER compare the liberal ideology to the radical Islam ideology. In fact, he is quite explicit that they are opposite, which is what makes the alliance even more hypocritical.

Again with the "ideology?" I mentioned nothing of "ideology." I merely drew similarities in views between the two towards Christianity. You seem to wish to create argument.


Kelzie said:
I find this interesting though:

"Most conservatives don't like to acknowledge that Bin Ladden is the very definition of the extreme Conservative."

Now, Bin Ladden (extreme Islam) is the definition of extreme Conservatism. And here I though you were saying extreme Islam is mirrored by liberalism. Which is it?

Of course you find it interesting, because it is about Conservatives. It is human nature to agree with what sheds negativity to the other side and immediately look for the defense when yours is addressed. I see you are very quick to lunge to the Liberal defense for no reason. I attacked the Liberal side no more than I attacked the Conservative side.

Like I have already typed and you have already purposefully ignored......I did not mean to "mirror" Liberalism to Radical Islam. "Mirror" was another's word. I merely agreed with the article and wasn't clear enough when I did it. I dismissed his post for the article and replied to it.

Let me guess...your reply will be to stagnate (conservative) the discussion and remark on how I mirror them..right?

By the way...I'm on my way home dear.
 
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Kelzie said:
You can't make up your own definitions and then use them to support your position. Even extreme liberals don't mind if you practice your religion publically. Just as long as the government doesn't practice a religion, which by definition, extends to public institutions maintained by the government, ie schools.

Ah there was a thread on this site not to long ago about liberal whack jobs freaking out and attempting to sue a public skating ring for having a christian hour of music! They said is was discriminatory. Now mind you everyone was invited to skate....you did not have to be a christian. It's just during the hour horrible christian music would make you ill. Examples like this crop up now and then. Most are content with just attacking government property like the Mt Soledad Cross but there are a few willing to go after any and everything.
 
Calm2Chaos said:
I was unaware of the large christian driven killing spree going on throughout the world. Let me google that up and see when it started.
A mirror shows everything in reverse. The aims and goals of Liberal Fundamentalists and Muslim Fundamentalists are completely out of phase, but both are willing to use the police power of the state to enforce their beliefs on others.

NB: The Christian killing spree pretty much ended (except in Northern Ireland) with the Peace of Westphalia in 1644, when the Catholics and the Protestants agreed that conversion at sword point wasn't going to work.
 
Diogenes said:
A mirror shows everything in reverse. The aims and goals of Liberal Fundamentalists and Muslim Fundamentalists are completely out of phase, but both are willing to use the police power of the state to enforce their beliefs on others.

NB: The Christian killing spree pretty much ended (except in Northern Ireland) with the Peace of Westphalia in 1644, when the Catholics and the Protestants agreed that conversion at sword point wasn't going to work.

Luckily for all of us we don't live in the past, but are stuck in the here and now. Comparing a time when much of the world was in upheval seems a little like comaring apples to oranges. We live in a realatively civilized society, least to a degree. The muslim world seems completely against moving forward. Instead they wallow in there long proven wrong ways. The feed off the oppression of there own people by there own people to fuel the anger for the world. Until they leap into the now, they will always be on the outside looking in as far as society is concerned
 
As Kelzie pointed out, liberals base their world view on certain principles such as those she highlighted.

There are those on the left who DO NOT base their word view upon principles (or at least consistant principles), however, as their rhetorec is based upon reaction rather than principle. They don't actually support liberal principles, since they adopt positions based upon opposition and/or conformity to dogma.

The confusion arises when folks call the latter "liberals" instead of leftists, because while they may be part of the left, they don't support liberal principles. In this, they do have much in common with the extreme right, because both are dogmatic and intolerant by nature, and both are authoritarian and reactionary. One needs to look no further than the confluence of opinion between the David Dukes and Norman Finklesteins of the world who arrive at the same position via opposite directions. Many leftists will quote Justin Raimondo one minute and Noam Chomsky the next, and so it should be obvious that these are not people who adhere to any underlying liberal principles.


Here is the rub as far as I see it in that when folks attack "liberals" while ascribing to liberality these attitudes more typical to the extreme leftists, far too many people respond by defending the label rather than what is being attacked. Liberals get their hackles up and end up defending the leftists who are not liberals to begin with. The right is certainly frought with much of this finger wagging "you liberals" stuff as is so much in evidence here in this forum, but when they do so and use examples from the far left that would be tantamount to a lefty holding up David Duke as a representative of conservatism, few liberals ever point out that what they are referring to is not liberal.

The right wing media pundits have been quite calculated in the way they have attacked liberals over the last couple of decades. Liberals, in turn, have become so defensive that they end up giving more creedance to the notions set forth in the attacks, since they do not distinguish between themselves and the authoritarian leftists who provide the basis for the attacks. These polemics have encouraged such radicalization that it seems folks have lost sight of what conservatism and liberality are really all about, and this is true from both sides of the spectrum. People from both sides of the political spectrum are now accepting as liberal that which does not actually support liberal values.
 
In the middle of September, 2006 Pope Benedict of the Catholic Church made a speech at the University in Regensburg, Germany.
The core of the speech has been characterized as a criticism of modern western civilization for committing itself too much to reason and cutting God out of science and philosophy.
Ian Fisher of the New York Times said that Pope Benedict started out ‘by recounting a conversation on the truths of Christianity and Islam that took place between a 14th- century Byzantine Christian emperor, Manuel II Paleologus, and a Persian scholar.’
Even the New York Times seems to have gotten the message wrong that Pope Benedict was sending.
Pope Benedict did not start by recounting the conversation. The quotation that caused the stir was far into the speech but that is only a minor point.
He was speaking about how reason has polluted faith to such an extent that the message of peace that Jesus brought was being lost in modern society. In fact the speech contained elements of his inaugural lecture at the University in Bonn from 1959.
It is a speech of love, the message of Jesus, the word of God and of and for humanity.
The media reported on a reference to a statement made by Emperor Manuel II Paleologus hundreds of years ago and sparked off a bitter response from the Muslim community around the world.
I am going to begin this evening with a short history so that we have a background for Emperor Paleologus.
The Fall of the Roman Empire took place over a long period of time. During one period the Empire broke into two pieces. There was the western empire which fragmented further into several countries like France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Spain, Portugal - et cetera with a central church whose head of state was in Rome.
The Eastern Empire retained its government and shape but was slowly over run by barbarians from the north and the Muslims from the east who were considered savages at the time.
Eventually the capital of the Eastern Empire at Byzantium was conquered and the Eastern Emperor, of which Manuel II was one of the last, ceased to be a governing power. The Eastern Churches are called Orthodox and range from the Greek Orthodox to the Russian Orthodox with other churches formed from what were formerly mainly Roman provinces.
Each of these orthodox churches has a different internal governing system and until Pope John Paul II made overtures they did not even speak to the Catholic Church in Rome.
During the Fall of the Western Empire a pantheon of gods was replaced by belief in the One True God. Much of the material from that time was preserved and passed down through the ages to the present day. Much of it was also destroyed.
Some of the most holy places in Rome to Catholics were once the same places used to worship Apollo, Diana, Zeus and Hera. Those are the ancient gods of Rome. Their statues were moved it of the buildings and the interiors redesigned to reflect the Catholic faith. A lot of this art is still in existence.
To the east of the Roman Empire - to the east of the Eastern Empire in fact, was in ancient times a nation called the Parthian Empire. After much fighting the Parthian Empire eventually ended up as the Persian Empire.
What happened when Mohammad came along was more bitter, divisive and destructive than the slow and thorough absorption of the old Roman religions by the Catholic religion.
Mohammad declared a campaign of destruction. When the Muslims entered Riyadh they attacked the pantheon of the Parthian or Persian Empire. They destroyed every statue and image they found. The priests were killed along with faithful trying to make a defense. Families were destroyed, the city burned and all the wealth and weapons taken for the continued fury of the spread of the Muslim faith.
The result is that the Muslim faith seemingly has no memory. There was a complete and willful break from the past which, rather than supplanting what was before it replaced it with another more insecure and fragile arrangement. Where local Parthian or Persian tax payers used to collect money now armed priests called Imams collected what is referred to as the ‘poor-tax’ which finds its way these days rarely to the tables of the poor and more often to the makers of guns, rockets and mortars. Osama Bin Laden for example had access to billions of dollars and rather than using it for constructive projects he used it to attack the World Trade Center in order to disrupt trade.
Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and other governments controlled in this way whine to the west about helping the poor while they sit on oil, gold, silver, tin and other natural resources controlled by a few religious leaders as in Iran or by Kings and princes as in Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.
It was a terrible time and unlike the slow change that took place in Rome it has never seemed to end. In fact the same behavior that the early Muslims showed to the art and culture of their own people was repeated when the Muslim Taliban in Afghanistan destroyed the 18 story tall statues of Buddha with dynamite.
This sort of destructive, irresponsible behavior was echoed again when a Danish cartoonist drew a caricature of Mohammed wearing a bomb for a hat.
These are two well known incidents in modern times but the destructive behavior has been repeated time and time again through history. Muslims sometimes say it is to defend their faith but lately it has started to seem a little like the fanaticism of men like Billy Sunday and Billy Graham who pull an enemy out of the hat so the donations of the faithful will keep pouring in.
The problem is that the violence that is unleashed through the old interpretation of the Koran is extreme.
Now to return to modern times. What exactly did Pope Benedict say?
Here it is. The Pope is referencing an edited text of Emperor Paleologus’s remarks :
"But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words:
Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.
The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.
God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. ""

The sentence that drove the Muslim world into a blood frenzy is : "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
The press did not dwell on the next sentence which reads, "The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul."

The response of the Muslim community was almost instant. As if they had been sitting in wait for anything to set them off. If their reaction had not been so violent, apparently unthinking and illogical it might have been humorous.

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:rofl This makes me laugh. THe funniest one is when they try and say muslims killed that nun. They arrested 1 of the men involved in the shooting and guess what, he wasnt even muslim. LMAO.
 
IsThatSo! said:
Seems that some Muslims are threatening to use violence because the Pope said that in the past some Muslims used violence as part of their religion, so now the Muslims want the Pope to apologize or they are going to kill some Christians for suggesting the Muslims are violent.

........irony.......hay, I wonder what would happen if the Pop claimed that Muslims jump off bridges…
 
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Jerry said:
........irony.......hay, I wonder what would happen if the Pop claimed that Muslims jump off bridges…
Thank you for flying "Being Idiot Ego Plane". Please direct your hatred to your self and jump off a bridge?
 
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