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Muslims and Burqas... Should We Have Unfettered Freedom of Religion?

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I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. The Dutch government may soon pass a resolution that would ban the use of the burka (the full body covering, leaving only the eyes visible, forced upon women by Islamic fundamentalists).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4170940

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html

According to the Times of London (second article), one of the major proponents of the ban is Rita Verdonk, the Integration Minister of the Netherlands. She is citing it as a safety measure, because terrorists could use the garb as a means of conducting terrorist acts. The Netherlands and the fundamentalist Muslim community have collided after film-maker Theo Van Gogh (decendent of the painter) was murdered by a fundamentalist for Van Gogh's criticism of the treatment of women in the Muslim community.

Should we ban burkas in our country?

On the one hand, banning burkas in public means that women entrapped in the fundamentalist community will be forced to live as slaves in their homes. On the other hand, these women are already slaves and one could argue that society should not tolerate every act done in the name of religion.

We ban multiple marriages, we ban ritual killing and certain forms of animal sacrifice, we ban some types of drug use in religious ceremony.

This is all done, however, for religious neutral reasons. If I remember correctly, Scalia wrote the opinion in a ritual drug use employment discrimination case, and he argued that because a general ban on drugs is purely for secular reasons (note: whether we should ban drugs at all is a completely different topic), the fact that the ban had some incidental effect on religion was irrelevant. Yet, banning the use of Burkas walks a finer line, and the argument that we are doing so for reasons other than discrimination against a religious viewpoint is a little thin. Also, acts of state that discriminate against religion are subject to strict scrutiny, so we would need a very good reason to enforce the ban.

(For example, the Times of London article cites a Dutch case upholding a ban in a childcare and social work class because children need to be able to see their caregivers.)

France has also banned the use of hijabs (like a burka, but the face is visible) and burkas in all public buildings and in schools.

I support a ban, especially in schools. I find the very idea of the burka to be abhorrent and it's disconcerting that there are countries like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia that so trample on the rights of women. I think there are times when human dignity should trump the freedom of religion. I also think Tony Blair had it right when he recently said (about Britain), that if you come to our country you agree to abide by our values.
 
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FinnMacCool

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Well let me say this. I don't care if muslim women who actually believe in the whole Islam thing do it but I wouldn't want women to have it forced upon them regardless of what their family thinks. Despites ones family, they should have the freedom to choose what they want to do.
 

ghost

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FinnMacCool said:
Well let me say this. I don't care if muslim women who actually believe in the whole Islam thing do it but I wouldn't want women to have it forced upon them regardless of what their family thinks. Despites ones family, they should have the freedom to choose what they want to do.
I agree somewhat with that. But its not just a matter of freedom either. They probly figure that muslim radicals will use wimon and children. And using the whole full body covering thing would make it easier for them to use such tactics. Not that Im profiling Muslims in that, but to me it seems like a valid arguement.
 

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So, then, we should ban trench coats as well.
I disagree with the ban by the reasoning of our Founding Fathers, who saw fit to include ideas such as freedom of expression, freedom of religious practice and innocent until proven guilty.

I see such a ban as a national dress-code, which makes me wonder what article of clothing is next. Traditional Christian women must wear dresses, are we to ban that as well? We could make an argument about Christian extremists (Army-of-God) who are no different then other terrorists.....

The Burka is a product of the culture, not the culture of the Burka. I sympathize with the ideals behind such a ban, but the ban does not address the rute problem of the issue, which, of coarse, is the interpretation of that culture's religion.

As an after thought:
Jewish women must also wear similer coverings, though not a Burka.
So this issue would effect them as well.
 

Old and wise

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Smart people, those Dutch. Maybe we could learn something from them?
Naw, forget it, we are not smart enough.
 
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Busta said:
So, then, we should ban trench coats as well.
I disagree with the ban by the reasoning of our Founding Fathers, who saw fit to include ideas such as freedom of expression, freedom of religious practice and innocent until proven guilty.
My personal concern is less about the risk of terrorism and more about a culture that treats a woman as less than human.

I see such a ban as a national dress-code, which makes me wonder what article of clothing is next. Traditional Christian women must wear dresses, are we to ban that as well? We could make an argument about Christian extremists (Army-of-God) who are no different then other terrorists.....
A fundamentalist Muslim believes that the very sight of a woman is offensive. A woman cannot be seen by any man except her husband. A fundamentalist Muslim woman cannot drive; she cannot learn to read. She is forced into an arranged marriage as a teenager. If she leaves her husband or if she is sexually active outside of marriage, she puts her very life in danger.

It's not the same thing.
 

Columbusite

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Russell Hammond said:
My personal concern is less about the risk of terrorism and more about a culture that treats a woman as less than human.



A fundamentalist Muslim believes that the very sight of a woman is offensive. A woman cannot be seen by any man except her husband. A fundamentalist Muslim woman cannot drive; she cannot learn to read. She is forced into an arranged marriage as a teenager. If she leaves her husband or if she is sexually active outside of marriage, she puts her very life in danger.

It's not the same thing.
One thing that really has no basis is the no reading part. Even if you believe the sura in the Quran that says it is the religious duty of every Muslim to acquire knowledge to mean only religious knowledge, you have to know how to read. In order to read the Quran, obviously. What about Christians who believe women are inferior? Are we just going to ignore them since they're not foreigners?
 

Salah ud Deen

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I have never even seen a woman in a burka except for in pictures of Afghanistan, and I have a lot of contact with the Muslim community. Now I have seen a number of women who choose to wear the niqab, which is a face veil that goes with the hijab, but they wear it of their own will. If the US banned it they would simply be stepping away from the ideal of freedom of religion and towards a form of tyranny. I don't think the founders would be too keen on that.
 
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Salah ud Deen said:
I have never even seen a woman in a burka except for in pictures of Afghanistan, and I have a lot of contact with the Muslim community.
I do want to be fair... I don't think I've ever seen a woman wearing a burka in the United States. The impression that I get is that there are very few fundamentalists here. This definitely more of an issue in Europe.
 

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Did you hear about the Muslim strip show... Show us your face love :lol:
 

Salah ud Deen

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Russell Hammond said:
I do want to be fair... I don't think I've ever seen a woman wearing a burka in the United States. The impression that I get is that there are very few fundamentalists here. This definitely more of an issue in Europe.
I think one of the difference's of why there are more fundamentalists in Europe is because of the racist treatment that the Europeans express to the Muslims. They talk about how tolerant they are but they are just like American liberals, they are tolerant of those they agree with and shout down the rest. Plus the Europeans like to pass laws banning Muslims from practicing their faith freely, while America stands up for freedom of religion, letting people worship as they wish. That is a huge difference.
 

Columbusite

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Salah ud Deen said:
I think one of the difference's of why there are more fundamentalists in Europe is because of the racist treatment that the Europeans express to the Muslims. They talk about how tolerant they are but they are just like American liberals, they are tolerant of those they agree with and shout down the rest. Plus the Europeans like to pass laws banning Muslims from practicing their faith freely, while America stands up for freedom of religion, letting people worship as they wish. That is a huge difference.
Well, I'm American and liberal, but I'm not for banning hijab. Just thought I'd also point out that it isn't racism in European countries since we are talking about religion, not race.
 

Salah ud Deen

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Columbusite said:
Just thought I'd also point out that it isn't racism in European countries since we are talking about religion, not race.
Well Most of the Muslims in Europe are non-whites but if you want to get technical thats fine. They are bigots.
 
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Russell Hammond said:
I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. The Dutch government may soon pass a resolution that would ban the use of the burka (the full body covering, leaving only the eyes visible, forced upon women by Islamic fundamentalists).

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4170940

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html

According to the Times of London (second article), one of the major proponents of the ban is Rita Verdonk, the Integration Minister of the Netherlands. She is citing it as a safety measure, because terrorists could use the garb as a means of conducting terrorist acts. The Netherlands and the fundamentalist Muslim community have collided after film-maker Theo Van Gogh (decendent of the painter) was murdered by a fundamentalist for Van Gogh's criticism of the treatment of women in the Muslim community.

Should we ban burkas in our country?

On the one hand, banning burkas in public means that women entrapped in the fundamentalist community will be forced to live as slaves in their homes. On the other hand, these women are already slaves and one could argue that society should not tolerate every act done in the name of religion.

We ban multiple marriages, we ban ritual killing and certain forms of animal sacrifice, we ban some types of drug use in religious ceremony.

This is all done, however, for religious neutral reasons. If I remember correctly, Scalia wrote the opinion in a ritual drug use employment discrimination case, and he argued that because a general ban on drugs is purely for secular reasons (note: whether we should ban drugs at all is a completely different topic), the fact that the ban had some incidental effect on religion was irrelevant. Yet, banning the use of Burkas walks a finer line, and the argument that we are doing so for reasons other than discrimination against a religious viewpoint is a little thin. Also, acts of state that discriminate against religion are subject to strict scrutiny, so we would need a very good reason to enforce the ban.

(For example, the Times of London article cites a Dutch case upholding a ban in a childcare and social work class because children need to be able to see their caregivers.)

France has also banned the use of hijabs (like a burka, but the face is visible) and burkas in all public buildings and in schools.

I support a ban, especially in schools. I find the very idea of the burka to be abhorrent and it's disconcerting that there are countries like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia that so trample on the rights of women. I think there are times when human dignity should trump the freedom of religion. I also think Tony Blair had it right when he recently said (about Britain), that if you come to our country you agree to abide by our values.

Yet another example of anti-moslem oppression.
There would be a howl of protest if the Dutch government were to introduce any repressive measures against jews practicing their religion but it is open season against the moslems.
 
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Salah ud Deen said:
Well Most of the Muslims in Europe are non-whites but if you want to get technical thats fine. They are bigots.
The jews claim to be "just a religion" as well but any attacks against them are regarded as "racist". Makes you think doesn`t it?
 
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Aryan Imperium said:
Yet another example of anti-moslem oppression.
There would be a howl of protest if the Dutch government were to introduce any repressive measures against jews practicing their religion but it is open season against the moslems.
Every time this nazi posts, I feel sick to my stomach.
 
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Russell Hammond said:
Every time this nazi posts, I feel sick to my stomach.
The truth beginning to hurt?
 
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Aryan Imperium said:
The truth beginning to hurt?
Sure, the truth hurts. The truth that 6 million Jews were murdered by your idol Hitler. The truth that we know what you scum are capable of, yet we are still unable to erradicate your philosophy from this planet. The truth that God will not strike you down for your corruption.

But it is still better to have the truth. Because we realize that despite our petty squabbles between conservatives and liberals, there is still pure unadulterated hatred and evil alive and well in your person. We realize that you are the very thing we are fighting against in our pursuit of human rights, justice, and dignity.
 
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Russell Hammond said:
Sure, the truth hurts. The truth that 6 million Jews were murdered by your idol Hitler. The truth that we know what you scum are capable of, yet we are still unable to erradicate your philosophy from this planet. The truth that God will not strike you down for your corruption.

But it is still better to have the truth. Because we realize that despite our petty squabbles between conservatives and liberals, there is still pure unadulterated hatred and evil alive and well in your person. We realize that you are the very thing we are fighting against in our pursuit of human rights, justice, and dignity.
That made me smile!:lol: I never thought of myself as evil incarnate before!
That has made my day!!:2razz:
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
That made me smile!:lol: I never thought of myself as evil incarnate before!
That has made my day!!:2razz:
It would make you smile because Nazis are scum; the lowest dregs of caucasions who align themselves with a doctrine which tells them its okay to be lower than shyte because its all someone else's fault. The cowardice of the Nazi philosophy, while being amusing to you, makes any sane and worthy human being sick...physically ill. It is a dogma of putrefaction and a decay of the human ideal and anyone who aligns himself with such disgusting beliefs should be hanged just to clear the gene pool of what must be an anomaly and degeneration of the beauty of human existence.
 
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jallman said:
It would make you smile because Nazis are scum; the lowest dregs of caucasions who align themselves with a doctrine which tells them its okay to be lower than shyte because its all someone else's fault. The cowardice of the Nazi philosophy, while being amusing to you, makes any sane and worthy human being sick...physically ill. It is a dogma of putrefaction and a decay of the human ideal and anyone who aligns himself with such disgusting beliefs should be hanged just to clear the gene pool of what must be an anomaly and degeneration of the beauty of human existence.
I see.Let us be crystal clear about this!
You are suggesting that people be murdered for having beliefs that you find "disgusting"?
Do you not see something psychotic in what you have written?
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
I see.Let us be crystal clear about this!
You are suggesting that people be murdered for having beliefs that you find "disgusting"?
Do you not see something psychotic in what you have written?
Not people, just nazis.
 

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Aryan Imperium said:
So you are advocating murder?
so long as its just nazis. then it isnt murder, its a public service. Why..isnt that what your man advocated for the jews? turnabout is fair play right, pig boy?
 
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