Murders, shootings soar in Chicago

[Grand Mal]

Canadian Drive-by:
Driving up to the house of your biggest criminal competition and then driving away 2 miles over the speed limit while playing Milli Vanilli loud enough to hear outside the car.

I grew up in Surrey, the home of the drive-by stabbing.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Visitor Visas?

Either sneaking a gun into Canada is really easy, or it's really easy to get a gun in Canada, or there's a thriving illegal gun black market for visiting thugs.

(Did I miss any?)

I said the dead. I don't know is they also had guns.

There IS a black market in weapons as a result of the crystal meth trade. Meth moves south and is sometimes paid for with guns.

Sneaking anything into or out of Canada is, frankly, child's play. In Point Roberts alone I can simply walk in through someone's back yard. Between here and Lake Superior exists about two thousand miles of absolutely open border. In South Surrey there is a soccer field which spans a 100 feet into the US. There is a huge network of hiking trails in the mountains to the east. They wind in and out of both countries with side trails leading in both directions. There are no fences. Anything either country wants to stop has to come through good street intelligence.

A year ago, we had a month long crack down at all BC border stations. At the end, the RCMP displayed a small room full of weapons, at least one assault rifle and thousands of $ worth of other contraband.

And, we only began allowing border people to carry weapons about seven or eight years ago.

 

[eohrnberger]

I said the dead. I don't know is they also had guns.

There IS a black market in weapons as a result of the crystal meth trade. Meth moves south and is sometimes paid for with guns.

Sneaking anything into or out of Canada is, frankly, child's play. In Point Roberts alone I can simply walk in through someone's back yard. Between here and Lake Superior exists about two thousand miles of absolutely open border. In South Surrey there is a soccer field which spans a 100 feet into the US. There is a huge network of hiking trails in the mountains to the east. They wind in and out of both countries with side trails leading in both directions. There are no fences. Anything either country wants to stop has to come through good street intelligence.

A year ago, we had a month long crack down at all BC border stations. At the end, the RCMP displayed a small room full of weapons, at least one assault rifle and thousands of $ worth of other contraband.

And, we only began allowing border people to carry weapons about seven or eight years ago.

Hmm. Meth moving South. That stuff is not something that I'd welcome in my town.

So what's the most effective manner on cracking down on trans border contraband? I would have to imagine that both Canada and the US governments are against contraband crossing their shared border, and I don't think that a Trump wall between the US and Canada is going to fly with either country's people.

We might be able expand the same question and apply it to Chicago and it's contraband problem (illegal drugs and guns coming in from out of State and out of town).

 

[Fearandloathing]

Hmm. Meth moving South. That stuff is not something that I'd welcome in my town.

So what's the most effective manner on cracking down on trans border contraband? I would have to imagine that both Canada and the US governments are against contraband crossing their shared border, and I don't think that a Trump wall between the US and Canada is going to fly with either country's people.

We might be able expand the same question and apply it to Chicago and it's contraband problem (illegal drugs and guns coming in from out of State and out of town).

That's the best question I've seen in a long time, and one constantly being discussed with law enforcement people, not only on the national level, but municipal level as well. I suspect the RCMP have some more powerful tools than do American cops.

There is no simple answer, there will always have to be some form of interdiction. But, for now, it's a matter of intelligence. We are in a war with the Hell's Angels who are the largest manufacturer of crystal meth in north america. As we knock one down, another pops up, the usual stuff.

And no, there will be no wall, either along the 49th nor the Canada Alaska border. Even if there were the funds, the engineering isn't there. You'd have to build roads in that would cost, unpaved, about $15 million a mile.

In short there are no solid answers. What we must do though, is accept that the current system is not working and start working together, stop arguing from ideological stands, but seek practical solutions. There are a number of VPD, many senior, that agree with me that attacking the problem from the user standpoint is more effective than the constant revolving door of enforcement alone.

Years ago we studied but did a very poor job of implementing the 'four pillars approach, harm reduction, treatment, prevention and enforcement. As airy fairy impossible as it seems, it is effective, even when implemented poorly.

However, like Vietnam, I doubt we will win the war on drugs with land battles. There are simply too many resources and the lure of extreme wealth against us.

 

[cabse5]

???? I'm confused... Who are the Bacon bros???

I always thought it was a cheapening allusion to the police?

 

[RetiredUSN]

I'm looking for correlation.

'More guns on the streets = more shootings', would seem worthy of examination, no?

I'm not jumping to conclusions (yet) in this short period of time, but having the public carry guns in Chicago was sold to the public as a way to lower crime and violence; I'd like to see if that correlation will meet its sales promises.


Well we have to act within the Constitution of course, and stop-and-frisk is in a gray area that has often been clarified by the courts.

But your points are valid.

Take a look at my post #8 in this thread, which I think has a lot to do with the rise, and is similar to what you pointed-out.

NO.....the law was passed for a individual to protect themselves from the same criminal element that make up the various gangs which account for 90% of the shootings.

Concealed carry doesn't prevent crimes anyways. Concealed carry gives the victim a chance to fight back while being the victim of a crime in progress.

 

[RetiredUSN]

All close, but not right. We don't have "gangs" nor do we have protection issues. The CPD eradicated proper gangs decades ago, which outside of Chicago is misunderstood because some Chicagoans (but mostly non-Chicagoans) refer to them still as gangs. Regardless imagine of those all gangs that were the source of violence in the 80s and 90s --those hardly exist anymore.

Instead Chicago's problem is entirely rooted in the availability of handguns to teenagers, which is why city leaders attempted to ban them.
We have thousands of high school aged kids and young adults living in high poverty areas who are unemployed, have no life prospects and literally nothing better to do.
So take all of your high school drama -- breakups, jealous, pregnancies, bullying, rivalries, etc. -- make the involved individuals unemployed and under-educated, and then hand each and everyone of them handguns.

That's what we are dealing with, and that's why CPD has literally no effect upon the shootings.

You have about 600 gangs in Chicago. This is according to the CPD.

By the numbers: Chicago-area gangs - CBS News

 

[faithful_servant]

I grew up in Surrey, the home of the drive-by stabbing.

But at least they apologize afterwards... :mrgreen:

 

[faithful_servant]

???? I'm confused... Who are the Bacon bros???

Gang leaders in the Vancouver area. One's been killed, the other is in prison, but the gang war goes on. There's been a spate of shootings in metro Vancouver these past few years. Not often fatal- I guess Canadian gangsters are poor shots.

I always thought it was a cheapening allusion to the police?

Apparently not...

Thx Grand Mal...

 

[Crimefree]

What I find interesting in the statement by the Chicago police is the claim of increased police activity in the month of March....but the murder rate rose by 29%? I am guessing the only increased in police activity was in the local donut shops.

Not essentially true it is equally possible some idiot sent them out to round up guns, See increase of gun arrests and "investigative" stops. When police effort is misdirected this is what happens,

Now scare yourself, How many are daily involved with records and activity to satisfy gun control laws? What did that cost the tax payer? What could have been more effective?

 

[Crimefree]

I'm looking for correlation.

'More guns on the streets = more shootings', would seem worthy of examination, no?

I'm not jumping to conclusions (yet) in this short period of time, but having the public carry guns in Chicago was sold to the public as a way to lower crime and violence; I'd like to see if that correlation will meet its sales promises..

Would what you are looking for not be the same as more cars on the road more vehicle accidents.

In the case of guns surely it depends on who has the guns. I'm not going to say it's the guns that will reduce anything but toss out the stupid gun law make a media circus of it and suggest that soon every citizen will be armed. I'm willing to bet there will be a dramatic drop because of the PUBLICITY.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I said the dead. I don't know is they also had guns.

There IS a black market in weapons as a result of the crystal meth trade. Meth moves south and is sometimes paid for with guns.

Sneaking anything into or out of Canada is, frankly, child's play. In Point Roberts alone I can simply walk in through someone's back yard. Between here and Lake Superior exists about two thousand miles of absolutely open border. In South Surrey there is a soccer field which spans a 100 feet into the US. There is a huge network of hiking trails in the mountains to the east. They wind in and out of both countries with side trails leading in both directions. There are no fences. Anything either country wants to stop has to come through good street intelligence.

A year ago, we had a month long crack down at all BC border stations. At the end, the RCMP displayed a small room full of weapons, at least one assault rifle and thousands of $ worth of other contraband.

And, we only began allowing border people to carry weapons about seven or eight years ago.

A few years ago I saw a CBC story on how people were using freight trains to move illegal goods, since trains aren't stopped and the crews are pre cleared. Lay some contraband on the running board of a container car, then as the train enters the railyard in canada and slows down the contact in canada retrieved it

 

[Moderate Right]

Good job Chicago in taking people's guns away!

 

[Chomsky]

Correlation does not equal causation.

You state the obvious.

Or perhaps more accurately: "Correlation does not necessarily mean causation."

But it also may. Which is why a prudent impartial observer looks at everything calmly & objectively. And the appearance of a direct correlation, seems good enough to warrant some attention as any. At least until other rational causes are found. And perhaps they may. I've suggested the Police backing-off as one (post #8 here).

So how many of those shootings involved someone legally carrying a concealed weapon?? If you really wanted carrying a firearm to make a difference in the crime rate, make open carry legal in Illinois. From a criminal perspective, there's no difference between an unarmed victim and an potential victim carrying a concealed weapon. But put a .45 Colt on someone's hip and suddenly the criminal no longer sees a potential victim, he sees someone to stay the hell away from. If there are enough folks around carrying openly, he'll most likely just go home, light up a blunt and think twice about doing that again....

You may have a valid point here. But you may also find when something untoward is going down, you and your gun are the first objects of a shooter's attention. Open carry seems a double-edged sword to me.

But one thing to keep in mind is: Different locals may want different solutions to 2A carry issues. Not everyone wants to feel they're in an armed camp, a'la open carry.

No, choosing to break the law causes crime... No one forced these people to break the law, they did it on their own. Do anti-drug laws create an opportunity?? Sure, but it still requires that someone CHOOSE to take advantage of that opportunity. Make drugs legal and the gangs will move into areas like extortion, protection rackets, influence peddling, etc. It's not the laws, it's the choice to break the laws.

That's a very simplistic point of view. Of course no one should break laws! We all know that!

But now let's talk reality: The WoD criminalized personal behavior in ways that seemed unfathomable just several generations ago. As long as the government insists on criminalizing citizen behaviors that large swatches of the citizenry want, they are leaving an open lucrative door open to criminals and gangs. Note well the gangland activity during prohibition, and now. So yes, the WoD is contributing to crime, violence, and death in this country, much of it unnecessary. It's doing the same in Mexico.

And besides crime and violence, the WoD has essentially shredded the Constitution in some key areas! :doh

 

[eohrnberger]

That's the best question I've seen in a long time, and one constantly being discussed with law enforcement people, not only on the national level, but municipal level as well. I suspect the RCMP have some more powerful tools than do American cops.

There is no simple answer, there will always have to be some form of interdiction. But, for now, it's a matter of intelligence. We are in a war with the Hell's Angels who are the largest manufacturer of crystal meth in north america. As we knock one down, another pops up, the usual stuff.

And no, there will be no wall, either along the 49th nor the Canada Alaska border. Even if there were the funds, the engineering isn't there. You'd have to build roads in that would cost, unpaved, about $15 million a mile.

In short there are no solid answers. What we must do though, is accept that the current system is not working and start working together, stop arguing from ideological stands, but seek practical solutions. There are a number of VPD, many senior, that agree with me that attacking the problem from the user standpoint is more effective than the constant revolving door of enforcement alone.

Years ago we studied but did a very poor job of implementing the 'four pillars approach, harm reduction, treatment, prevention and enforcement. As airy fairy impossible as it seems, it is effective, even when implemented poorly.

However, like Vietnam, I doubt we will win the war on drugs with land battles. There are simply too many resources and the lure of extreme wealth against us.

If I recall, susceptibility to addiction is a genetic trait. So if we find all this drug abuse so terrible, wouldn't it be wise to weed these traits out of the gene pool? Why not just execute the addicted and be done with this problem after a generation or two? (Just saying).

 

[Chomsky]

I live at 60 degrees North (well 59.9 degs to be honest) so should I start getting worried? I mean I'm not allowed to 'conceal carry' anything much except a nail file.

Obviously, far north latitudes are only one contributing factor.

But if you live where there's a deep solstice, I bet there's higher instances of alcoholism and depression during those months than in warmer & sunnier climes!

 

[Chomsky]

More proof that federal involvement is the sure way to fix things at the local level?

Actually, in this case it is the way.

The CPD are so screwed-up because they've gotten away with so much over the decades. It's been institutionalized from the top, and it follows through to the bottom.

Here's an example: In the Laquan McDonald case over 20 officers were on the scene. 6 made police reports backing-up the shooting officer, all of which have subsequently been discredited. These 6 officers are under current investigation. The other 14+ officers on the scene all claim the didn't see the shooting for various reasons! Including the officer who's vehicle had the dashcam video released to the public! She claims she was looking for some object that fell under the dash!

And this is the Chicago way.

Those coppers I know that are complaining, are stuck in this totally effed system. Why? Because they cannot refuse. They cannot refuse for a multitude of reasons. All they can do is quit (and some do, particularly probies & rookies).

So yes, Chicago needs the feds. Badly.

 

[jet57]

What I find interesting in the statement by the Chicago police is the claim of increased police activity in the month of March....but the murder rate rose by 29%? I am guessing the only increased in police activity was in the local donut shops.

Such police activity rises when the gangs are warring with each other, which is what this sounds like. Cops will be pulled from other duties and be put on the streets when it heats up like this. More guns for the gangs = more wars. It's the proliferation of weapons that makes this all so bad.

 

[Chomsky]

Would what you are looking for not be the same as more cars on the road more vehicle accidents.

In the case of guns surely it depends on who has the guns. I'm not going to say it's the guns that will reduce anything but toss out the stupid gun law make a media circus of it and suggest that soon every citizen will be armed. I'm willing to bet there will be a dramatic drop because of the PUBLICITY.

Yeah, I do think much of the increase in shootings is due to the the CPD backing-down due to their being under political siege.

The main danger I see from the new concealed carry provisions, is the public being exposed to the danger of additional gun accidents and mistakes in judgement. Obviously, that has to be weighed against the good done by one being able to defend themselves; and self-defense is a big (and important) deal!

So at 2-1/2 years in, we'll have to see how it goes. But right now there does seem to be a positive correlation (shootings have nearly doubled), but it remains to be seen if the further availability of legal guns is the cause. It might be. Chicago just may be a helluva' violent place!

 

[Chomsky]

A few years ago I saw a CBC story on how people were using freight trains to move illegal goods, since trains aren't stopped and the crews are pre cleared. Lay some contraband on the running board of a container car, then as the train enters the railyard in canada and slows down the contact in canada retrieved it

I hate to commend criminal enterprise, but I must admit that was a pretty slick idea!

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Actually, in this case it is the way.

The CPD are so screwed-up because they've gotten away with so much over the decades. It's been institutionalized from the top, and it follows through to the bottom.

Here's an example: In the Laquan McDonald case over 20 officers were on the scene. 6 made police reports backing-up the shooting officer, all of which have subsequently been discredited. These 6 officers are under current investigation. The other 14+ officers on the scene all claim the didn't see the shooting for various reasons! Including the officer who's vehicle had the dashcam video released to the public! She claims she was looking for some object that fell under the dash!

And this is the Chicago way.

Those coppers I know that are complaining, are stuck in this totally effed system. Why? Because they cannot refuse. They cannot refuse for a multitude of reasons. All they can do is quit (and some do, particularly probies & rookies).

So yes, Chicago needs the feds. Badly.

I've started thinking that maybe when things start to get as bad as they are in Chicago that the whole city government should be disbanded and made into a special district directly under the supervision of the state. or the feds if the state government isn't much better, which is arguably true in Illinois. I think per capita more former governor of Ill have been indicted then street level drug dealers....

 

[Chomsky]

Good job Chicago in taking people's guns away!

???

Chicago recently legalized handguns and carry! :doh

And shootings subsequently went up. That's the crux of the discussion: "What's going on here"?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

???

Chicago recently legalized handguns and carry! :doh

And shootings subsequently went up. That's the crux of the discussion: "What's going on here"?

But they're still not at historical levels, they mentioned 2003, a whole 9 years before CPLs was deadlier then now. probably worse during the crack epidemic in the 80s to early 1990s. so it best we have coincidence, not a trend.

 

[Moderate Right]

???

Chicago recently legalized handguns and carry! :doh

And shootings subsequently went up. That's the crux of the discussion: "What's going on here"?

Confess to not reading the whole thread but Chicago is well known for very strict gun control laws and having a lot of gun crimes at the same time so I'm not so sure you can read too much into this.

 

[Chomsky]

I've started thinking that maybe when things start to get as bad as they are in Chicago that the whole city government should be disbanded and made into a special district directly under the supervision of the state. or the feds if the state government isn't much better, which is arguably true in Illinois. I think per capita more former governor of Ill have been indicted then street level drug dealers....

Well, it's not the solution those of us that support a federation prefer, but it has been done with other local Chicago suburbs that were mobbed-up. Cicero and Willow Springs come immediately to mind. and they both were relatively recent (last two decades). And it seems to have worked.