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Murder Fugitive and His Daughter, 15, Killed on California Highway During Shootout with Police

Drowning Man

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ABDUCTED =/= KIDNAPPED

irrelevant. The specific charge changes often from what the cops originally charge.

For the cops, it’s all the same. An innocent 15 year old girl victimized by her father.

Or, it seems in this case…target practice
 

Fledermaus

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irrelevant. The specific charge changes often from what the cops originally charge.

For the cops, it’s all the same. An innocent 15 year old girl victimized by her father.

Or, it seems in this case…target practice

100% relevant.

You ASSUME an innocent 15 year old girl victimized by her father.

HESPERIA, Calif. (KABC) -- A man who was accused of killing his estranged wife in Fontana and abducting their 15-year-old daughter had been living with the teenager out of his pickup truck and hotels for weeks before the violence, authorities said Wednesday.


 

Drowning Man

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100% relevant.

You ASSUME an innocent 15 year old girl victimized by her father.

HESPERIA, Calif. (KABC) -- A man who was accused of killing his estranged wife in Fontana and abducting their 15-year-old daughter had been living with the teenager out of his pickup truck and hotels for weeks before the violence, authorities said Wednesday.


Again, irrelevant. That's the information that the cops had to go off of at the time of the shooting.
 

Trippy Trekker

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TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LAWS.
Yep. Based on my interpretation (imagine me as a juror), i understand an abduction can occur without kidnapping. A kidnapping cannot occur without an abduction. Logically, to obtain a kidnapping conviction as opposed to an abduction conviction, prosecution must raise the bar.
 

Fledermaus

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Yep. Based on my interpretation (imagine me as a juror), i understand an abduction can occur without kidnapping. A kidnapping cannot occur without an abduction. Logically, to obtain a kidnapping conviction as opposed to an abduction conviction, prosecution must raise the bar.

An assault can occur without a murder. A murder cannot without an assault. Logically, to obtain a murder conviction as opposed to an assault conviction, prosecution must raise the bar.

That doesn't make Assault = Murder. Nor is abduction = kidnapping.
 

bomberfox

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Oozlefinch

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Examples of Hairsplitting:

1. suggest v. encourage

2. abduct v. kidnap.

If you consider hairsplitting reasonable in this kind of forum, you win (concession made with an eye roll).

It is not "hairsplitting" when there is an actual difference.

Kidnapping generally uses force or the threat of force. Abduction generally does not use force, but getting the victim to comply without any force at all. Like a neighbor convincing a kid that they were sent to pick them up for a parent, or a molester convincing that the 15 year old girl is really in love with him so leaves with him voluntarily.

This is not "hairsplitting" at all, and all that is required in the state of California (the state this happened in, in case you missed it) to put out an "AMBER Alert" is to simply have the child be with somebody that does not have primary custody of them. Like a non-custodial parent, or a 42 year old guy from Nebraska that convinced her to run off with him.

And your first example is even more funny. As that is a huge difference that can get a case thrown out of court. An undercover police officer "Encouraging" an individual to do a crime quite often results in a successful prosecution. But "suggesting" that they do a crime generally falls under the definition of "entrapment".

Good thing you are not a lawyer, because the differences between all of these is rather huge.
 

Trippy Trekker

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An assault can occur without a murder. A murder cannot without an assault. Logically, to obtain a murder conviction as opposed to an assault conviction, prosecution must raise the bar.

That doesn't make Assault = Murder. Nor is abduction = kidnapping.
Agreed, much like ‘to suggest’ =/= ‘to encourage’.
 

Trippy Trekker

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It is not "hairsplitting" when there is an actual difference.

Kidnapping generally uses force or the threat of force. Abduction generally does not use force, but getting the victim to comply without any force at all. Like a neighbor convincing a kid that they were sent to pick them up for a parent, or a molester convincing that the 15 year old girl is really in love with him so leaves with him voluntarily.

This is not "hairsplitting" at all, and all that is required in the state of California (the state this happened in, in case you missed it) to put out an "AMBER Alert" is to simply have the child be with somebody that does not have primary custody of them. Like a non-custodial parent, or a 42 year old guy from Nebraska that convinced her to run off with him.

And your first example is even more funny. As that is a huge difference that can get a case thrown out of court. An undercover police officer "Encouraging" an individual to do a crime quite often results in a successful prosecution. But "suggesting" that they do a crime generally falls under the definition of "entrapment".

Good thing you are not a lawyer, because the differences between all of these is rather huge.
Do you have an active law license in California? Do you currently practice criminal law in California?

I sure hope you do not practice law in the United States!
 

Oozlefinch

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Other questions remain. In a Civil Case, who can claim status to sue for wrongful death?

Quite literally, almost anybody.

What, you think that somebody actually needs to have a vested interest in a case to sue? That is the very basis for an Amicus Curiae ("Friend of the Court") case.

There are even lawyers that specialize in these kinds of lawsuits. Their techniques vary, but a lot of them are really just shaking down business owners in the hopes of some money. Like measuring the grab rails in bathrooms, then filing a lawsuit if they are half an inch off of what the legal code states. Or suing if the mandatory Employee Notifications are not current.

When I first opened my computer store back in 2017, I actually got 5 such letters from different lawyers. Each one demanding money unless I paid them off for not being in compliance. Of course, none of them knew that, they likely pulled my name and address from my DBA filing and business license request and assumed as a new business owner I likely was not in compliance.

I sent each a letter stating I was a single location owner operated business therefore did not have to have such a posting. Three sent more letters trying to claim the law had changed (it did not) and they would file a lawsuit unless I paid them to do an "audit" and sell me the "appropriate signs". I just ignored them, and needless to say nothing happened.

But these kinds of things are frighteningly common. Like the various "lawsuits" that pop up over almost anything relating to abortion or termination of life support. Often by people not involved in the case at all, but petitioning as a "Friend of the Court" in order to try and involve their own beliefs (or those of the organization they are suing for).
 

Oozlefinch

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Do you have an active law license in California? Do you currently practice criminal law in California?

I sure hope you do not practice law in the United States!

Wow, that is your angle?

Well, thankfully Fledermaus actually stated the relevant California Penal Code relating to both Kidnapping and Abduction.

Many people think that the terms “kidnapping” and “child abduction” are interchangeable. However, California law differentiates these two offenses and considers them two different crimes. Whether law enforcement has arrested you for child abduction or kidnapping, it’s essential that you reach out to a skilled and experienced Los Angeles County criminal defense lawyer right away to ensure your rights remain protected at every stage of the criminal justice process.

How California Defines Child Abduction​

In California, kidnapping offenses are considered to be far more serious than child abduction. California Penal Code Section 278 states, “Every person, not having a right to custody, who maliciously takes, entices away, keeps, withholds, or conceals any child with the intent to detain or conceal that child from a lawful custodian” may be charged with child abduction. Child abduction is usually prosecuted as a felony offense, with penalties ranging from two, three, or four years in prison, up to $10,000 in fines, or both. It can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor, with a punishment of up to a year in jail. Even a parent who is not the child’s legal guardian can face child abduction charges, as long as prosecutors can show that the defendant intended to detain or conceal the child from their legal guardian.

Kidnapping Offenses Under California Law​

The legal definition of kidnapping in California is as follows: “Every person who forcibly, or by any other means of instilling fear, steals or takes, or holds, detains, or arrests any person in this state, and carries the person into another country, state, or county, or into another part of the same county, is guilty of kidnapping” (California Penal Code Section 207). You may also be charged with kidnapping if you hired someone else to kidnap the victim or if you committed an act of human trafficking. If convicted of simple kidnapping, you could face up to eight years in state prison, up to $10,00 in fines, or both. Aggravated kidnapping carries even harsher penalties; in some circumstances, you could face life imprisonment for committing this offense.

But please, how about you provide a reference that states that in the California there is no difference between the two?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Whomever fired on the girl needs to be charged.
Why?
Then they started mushmouthing about whether or not she was involved in the firefight.
She was most definitely involved in the firefight. Even if you don’t have a gun you’re involved if you’re in a vehicle with someone who does and is shooting
There was only one firearm present, and we know Graziano was firing it.
Yes, it is really tragic that Graziano didn’t care about the safety of his daughter. This is not something that the police can correct in a situation where he is involved.

This is the problem with modern cop-hating leftists, they immediately view any tragedy as a sign a police officer must have done something criminal.

Even if she was innocent and unarmed, that does not mean the shooting was criminal so long as the involved officer reasonably believed under the circumstances known to him/her that she was a threat when s/he fired.

It is pretty reprehensible that your very first comment is that a cop should be charged just because of the outcome with no regard to the circumstances
 

Trippy Trekker

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Quite literally, almost anybody.

What, you think that somebody actually needs to have a vested interest in a case to sue? That is the very basis for an Amicus Curiae ("Friend of the Court") case.
….
I own a real estate company in the Tampa Bay Area, Florida. Litigation, lawsuits, trials, negotiations and settlements come with the territory. I work with attorneys on the regular.

As for ‘Friends of the Court’ cases, Florida’s AG Ashley Moody filed a brief, along with 17 AGs nationwide, in support of the lawsuit TX AG Ken Paxton filed with the USSC to overturn the General Election results in 4 states.

Do you remember how that case turned out? Yeah, almost anyone can sue. Standing matters.
 

Trippy Trekker

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Wow, that is your angle?

Well, thankfully Fledermaus actually stated the relevant California Penal Code relating to both Kidnapping and Abduction.



But please, how about you provide a reference that states that in the California there is no difference between the two?
Maybe you missed my exchanges with @Fledermaus . I agreed with him.
 

Deuce

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Yes. It is.

California Penal Code 278 PC defines child abduction as a situation where a person, with no right of custody, takes a child away and keeps the child from the parents or legal guardians. The offense can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony and is punishable by up to four years in jail or prison.

Kidnapping under §207(a) is punishable by a term of up to eight years in a state prison, a fine of up to $10,000, or both imprisonment and a fine. In addition, since Kidnapping is considered a “serious felony,” conviction is counted as a “strike” on your criminal record.

In sum, to be guilty of Kidnapping under CPC §207(a), the prosecution must prove that:

  • You took or held someone through force or fear; AND,
  • You moved, or made the person move, a substantial distance; AND,
  • The other person didn't consent; AND,
  • You didn't actually believe the person consented.

Two very different crimes.
And he appears to be guilty of both, yes.
 

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EMNofSeattle

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