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Murder Fugitive and His Daughter, 15, Killed on California Highway During Shootout with Police

Deuce

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Just summarily execute them, right?
Nobody should be summarily executed. What kind of person would suggest that!?

I suggested being skeptical of claims made by police and you got this angry and unhinged about it. Explain, because otherwise you look like your stance is “always believe everything the cops say.”
 

Deuce

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You mean :

Condemn
Cops
Before
Finding
Out
All
The
Facts
You mean “I love murdering kidnapping victims.”

This is a fun game, making shit up nobody said. Your turn!
 

Grizzly Adams

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No, no...that's for the cops to do when an unarmed girl they get an amber alert for is running towards them.
Nobody should be summarily executed. What kind of person would suggest that!?

I suggested being skeptical of claims made by police and you got this angry and unhinged about it. Explain, because otherwise you look like your stance is “always believe everything the cops say.”
But that's not what you said. You said don't listen to them.
 

Drowning Man

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The "unarmed" girl who was wearing tactical gear, a helmet and was firing at police during the chase..... That girl?

I didn't realize that wearing tactical gear and a helmet was a executable offense. As for firing on the police...I'll wait for real evidence of that one.
 

Fledermaus

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Fledermaus

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This situation started with an Amber Alert.

And all Amber Alerts are kidnappings....

Right.

Do you know ANYTHING about the background of these two?


You’ve also wildly missed the point.

15-year-old girl killed in Hesperia shootout had been staying with father before mother's slaying​


HESPERIA, Calif. (KABC) -- A man who was accused of killing his estranged wife in Fontana and abducting their 15-year-old daughter had been living with the teenager out of his pickup truck and hotels for weeks before the violence, authorities said Wednesday.
Anthony John Graziano and his daughter, Savannah Graziano, were killed Tuesday in a shootout with law enforcement on a highway in the high desert after a 45-mile chase. The girl, wearing a tactical helmet and military-style vest that can hold armored plates, ran toward deputies amid a hail of gunfire. Authorities are investigating whether she was shot by deputies or her father, or both.


 

Deuce

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And all Amber Alerts are kidnappings....

Right.

Do you know ANYTHING about the background of these two?




15-year-old girl killed in Hesperia shootout had been staying with father before mother's slaying​


HESPERIA, Calif. (KABC) -- A man who was accused of killing his estranged wife in Fontana and abducting their 15-year-old daughter had been living with the teenager out of his pickup truck and hotels for weeks before the violence, authorities said Wednesday.
Anthony John Graziano and his daughter, Savannah Graziano, were killed Tuesday in a shootout with law enforcement on a highway in the high desert after a 45-mile chase. The girl, wearing a tactical helmet and military-style vest that can hold armored plates, ran toward deputies amid a hail of gunfire. Authorities are investigating whether she was shot by deputies or her father, or both.


It is confounding to me that you can post this while believing it shows I am wrong.
 

Oozlefinch

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I'm going to hold on judgment until more facts are available. The officers may not have known that there was a potential hostage.... it sounds like the gunman was trying hard to kill the officers e.g. bullets through windshield, a vehicle disabled by gunfire....

Terrible situation, tragic.

And then I would like to know what the cops may have said, how far away they were, etc.

And her age means nothing. Our jails are full of murderers at that age. And it is not like children have never been involved in the murder of their parents.

But considering she was in "tactical gear" and running towards them, that is almost guaranteed to spur the reflexive action to shoot the individual as a threat. In these incidents somebody only has a second or less to react, and that is simply not enough time to always make the best choice when bullets are flying.
 

Oozlefinch

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It is confounding to me that you can post this while believing it shows I am wrong.

An AMBER Alert means that a child was abducted, that is not the same as kidnapping.

If a 15 year old takes off with a 35 year old serial child rapist that groomed her so she runs away with him, that very much falls under the criteria. She was abducted, as she is not with her legal guardians. But she was not kidnapped as there was no force used.

Here is the legal definition of what an AMBER Alert is in the state of California:

In order for an AMBER Alert to be activated, the following criteria must be met (Government Code section 8594):
  1. Confirmation that an abduction has occurred or a child was taken by anyone, including, but not limited to, a custodial parent or guardian.
  2. The victim is 17 years of age or younger, or an individual with a proven mental or physical disability.
  3. The victim is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death.
  4. There is information available that, if disseminated to the public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim.

Notice the use "abducted", not "kidnapped". In this case and assuming the worst case scenario and she was involved in the murder of her mother, this is still an abduction and meets all the criteria of an AMBER Alert.

When I lived in California these were on the highway signs all the time. And a hell of a lot of them about 20 years ago were about stalkers from the Internet who managed to convince young girls (and sometimes boys) to take off with them.
 

Deuce

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An AMBER Alert means that a child was abducted, that is not the same as kidnapping.

If a 15 year old takes off with a 35 year old serial child rapist that groomed her so she runs away with him, that very much falls under the criteria. She was abducted, as she is not with her legal guardians. But she was not kidnapped as there was no force used.

Here is the legal definition of what an AMBER Alert is in the state of California:



Notice the use "abducted", not "kidnapped". In this case and assuming the worst case scenario and she was involved in the murder of her mother, this is still an abduction and meets all the criteria of an AMBER Alert.

When I lived in California these were on the highway signs all the time. And a hell of a lot of them about 20 years ago were about stalkers from the Internet who managed to convince young girls (and sometimes boys) to take off with them.
The distinction you are trying to make about abduction vs kidnapping simply isn’t accurate.
 

Trippy Trekker

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That's it? Say I am wrong and not why? Or nothing else?

*shakes head and walks away*
Examples of Hairsplitting:

1. suggest v. encourage

2. abduct v. kidnap.

If you consider hairsplitting reasonable in this kind of forum, you win (concession made with an eye roll).
 

Fledermaus

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The distinction you are trying to make about abduction vs kidnapping simply isn’t accurate.

Yes. It is.

California Penal Code 278 PC defines child abduction as a situation where a person, with no right of custody, takes a child away and keeps the child from the parents or legal guardians. The offense can be charged as a misdemeanor or a felony and is punishable by up to four years in jail or prison.

Kidnapping under §207(a) is punishable by a term of up to eight years in a state prison, a fine of up to $10,000, or both imprisonment and a fine. In addition, since Kidnapping is considered a “serious felony,” conviction is counted as a “strike” on your criminal record.

In sum, to be guilty of Kidnapping under CPC §207(a), the prosecution must prove that:

  • You took or held someone through force or fear; AND,
  • You moved, or made the person move, a substantial distance; AND,
  • The other person didn't consent; AND,
  • You didn't actually believe the person consented.

Two very different crimes.
 

Fledermaus

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Examples of Hairsplitting:

1. suggest v. encourage

2. abduct v. kidnap.

If you consider hairsplitting reasonable in this kind of forum, you win (concession made with an eye roll).

Abduction and Kidnapping are two very different crimes in California.
 

Drowning Man

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The next time I get an amber alert, I’ll know now what to do….shoot her if I see her.
 

Drowning Man

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You assumed she was kidnapped.

That's what the COPS were told and were going off of. That's not something that was in question at the time of the shooting. So...irrelevant.
 

Trippy Trekker

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Abduction and Kidnapping are two very different crimes in California.
Yeah, like the differences between involuntary homicide, voluntary homicide, 3rd degree murder, 2nd degree murder and 1st degree murder. Any specific conviction(s) bring a very different statutory sentence range.

If the dad only abducted her and did not kidnap her, coupled with the speculation she may have shot at police during the chase, wearing a helmet and body armor while running toward police, these factors mitigate the circumstances of her death and create plausible deniability of any negligence or criminal acts by law enforcement.

Other questions remain. In a Civil Case, who can claim status to sue for wrongful death? Jury trial or Bench trial?Would a settlement make more sense than going to trial? What dollar range for a settlement makes sense? How much worth would a jury or judge place on the 15 year old abductee’s life? What could she have done differently? Etc.
 
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