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Mr Cameron: do we really want Turkey in the EU?

mbig

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In light of Cameron's recent breathtakingly butt-kissing speech in Turkey... it's time to ask some serious questions.
The below excerpt using a quote by Belgium's Van Rompuy from a few years previous.

Mr Cameron: do we really want Turkey in the EU?
Van Rompuy is right: Turkey is not, and will Never be, a part of Europe
By William Oddie // 28 July 2010
What are we to make of David Cameron’s ‘anger’ towards those in Europe who are frustrating progress towards Turkish membership of the EU? The argument you tend to hear in favour of this is that Turkey stands at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, and that it will help Europe establish a community of interest with Muslim countries (well, some of them, anyway).

The price of that, however, is that we change the whole culture of the EU: to begin with, overnight the Muslim population of the EU will rise to around 20%. France and Germany oppose this on the grounds that it will lead to a huge influx of Turkish immigrants: Germany already has 4 million of them.

Turkey would be the EU’s second largest country after Germany.

The cultural arguments against this change are clear enough, and have been expressed by the ‘President of Europe’ Herman Van Rompuy, as follows: “Turkey is not a part of Europe and will never be part of Europe. An expansion of the EU to include Turkey cannot be considered as just another expansion as in the past . . . The universal values which are in force in Europe, and which are fundamental values of Christianity, will lose vigour with the entry of a large Islamic country such as Turkey”.
[.......]
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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I think we've had this before.

But it's still nice to see our new fuhrer van Rumpey speak out against it.

After all, a gateway to the Muslim world is also a gateway from it. And we've got enough cultural clashes, ethnic tension and unemployment as it is without amplifying the problems.


Perhaps Rumpey can make a condition of entry: When every single EU nation manages to persuade its existing Muslim communities to banish each and every terrorist extremist from their midst, plus refusing their every petulant demand for special toilets or tailor-made tv scripts or legal systems, can we then even discuss Turkey's entry.
 
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mbig

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"Tabii ki Türkiye.”????
Reminiscent of Kennedy in Berlin 50 Years ago.. "Ich bin Ein Berliner."
Except.....


Worse Mistake in Cameron’s “Prison Camp” Speech
A Worse Mistake in Cameron
July 27th, 2010 pm David Frum

The slap at Israel was bad – the failure to condemn the Hamas government in Gaza even worse – but the real evil in Cameron’s speech in Ankara was the way in which it fed Prime Minister Erdogan’s delusions of grandeur.

“Turkey is a great NATO ally and Turkey shares our determination to fight terrorism in all its forms, whether from al-Qaeda or from the PKK.”

“Which European country could have the greatest possible chance of persuading Iran to change its course on nuclear policy? Tabii ki Türkiye.”

“No other country has the same potential to build understanding between Israel and the Arab world.”

“But as, hopefully, we move in the coming weeks to direct talks between Israel and the Palestinians so it’s Turkey that can make the case for peace and Turkey that can help to press the parties to come together, and point the way to a just and viable solution.”

None of these statements are true.
[......]
Diplomatic speeches are not delivered upon oath, and sometimes improved behavior can be elicited by flattering lies. In this case, though, flattering lies seem much more likely to create feelings of impunity – and invite yet more provocative behavior.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Efendi

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I've got two things to say to 'Mr.' Cameron...



SCUM,

Turkish-Sponsored Islamic Terror - aliraqi Community

Asia Times - Asia's most trusted news source for the Middle East

Turkish PM Erdogan: “There is no Islamic Terrorism”

SCUM!!!

Turkish ministers may want to fight terrorism, or at least say they do, but pretending that Turkey is the key to some great stability and security that Europeans want to open themselves to, is treason of the highest order!
I think you don't understand whay he means with there is no islamic terror, doesn't necessarily means there is no terror. He doesn't regard Taleban terrorism as Islamic terrorism because of his ideology that Islam is peace.

He also says:
"We have to fully understand and analyse the terrorist who is a citizen in our country and the terrorist who is in another country. Because terrorism does not recognise borders, has no religion or creed, one cannot approach the problem by saying my terrorist is fine and yours is not,"
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10884458.asp

It is not the first time I hear there is no Islamic terror on Turkish TV. Religion and terrorism are different concept.
 
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LaughAtTheWorld

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Turkey will never be part of Europe, historically, geographically, culturally, and politically. When people think of Turkey, they think "Oh, the Middle East!" They don't think "Oh, Europe!"
 

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If it pisses off the other European countries. Hell yes.

Europe wanted closer integration and interest from UK about the EU, well they're getting it.
Go Turkey! :peace
 

Republic_Of_Public

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He doesn't regard Taleban terrorism as Islamic terrorism because of his ideology that Islam is peace.
Another reason to keep Turkey out. If their politicians live in deluded denial (or even wilful denial) then Turkey would surely represent a constant terror risk. And with the Americans already considering our capital to be Londonistan, the prospect of hordes more Muslims roaming loose around the city without need for visas can only make them even more jittery.

But I suppose that would make Cameron even more determined to bring Turkey in - continuing to stack our nation's destiny on the discredited 'Religion of Peace' and 'multicultural' theories for political ends is just the kind of shameful, toxic and downright deceptive ivory-tower ploy he's used to playing!
 
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What is the use of EU.

They are not Politic power. They can't set their economic policies.

As to the future prospection of Eu. Do you think the aging demografic of the land be promising compared to the emerging market of the earth?

Turkeys entry to EU is not reasonable. It would be self destruction for Turkey.
 

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Another reason to keep Turkey out. If their politicians live in deluded denial (or even wilful denial) then Turkey would surely represent a constant terror risk. And with the Americans already considering our capital to be Londonistan, the prospect of hordes more Muslims roaming loose around the city without need for visas can only make them even more jittery.

But I suppose that would make Cameron even more determined to bring Turkey in - continuing to stack our nation's destiny on the discredited 'Religion of Peace' and 'multicultural' theories for political ends is just the kind of shameful, toxic and downright deceptive ivory-tower ploy he's used to playing!
It doesn't necessarily means that Erdoğan and Turkish policy doesn't regard Taleban as terroris organization. Every body in Turkey probably know their atack in Istanbul. You should not narrow your perspective with religion, everything is not religious issue.
 

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It doesn't necessarily means that Erdoğan and Turkish policy doesn't regard Taleban as terroris organization. Every body in Turkey probably know their atack in Istanbul. You should not narrow your perspective with religion, everything is not religious issue.
Quite right. Did we refer to the IRA as 'Catholic terrorists'? Did we then tar all Catholics as following a religion of hate? Of course we didn't.
 

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Quite right. Did we refer to the IRA as 'Catholic terrorists'? Did we then tar all Catholics as following a religion of hate? Of course we didn't.
I have impression that, religion is too powerfull in western europea. They tempt to define anything with religion. There is islamic natiıon and christian nation in this narrow mindset.
 
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Quite right. Did we refer to the IRA as 'Catholic terrorists'? Did we then tar all Catholics as following a religion of hate? Of course we didn't.
Yes, I think William of Orange even used harsher terms when he created the injustice that's still causing problems today. Over the course the conflict itself has become the center of attention but it used to be ethnicity and religion.
 

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You should not narrow your perspective with religion, everything is not religious issue.
No, but religion (a specific one we all know) has been thrust bang in the spotlight these past few years, with people on all sides struggling to comprehend its scale.



Put it this way, will Turkey's entry into the EU make your newspaper a better read, you car a cheaper drive or your beer taste better?

Will it improve the Pound in your pocket or the quality of the programmes on television or the performances of theatre actors?

Will it make your job safer?
 
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Efendi

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No, but religion (a specific one we all know) has been thrust bang in the spotlight these past few years, with people on all sides struggling to comprehend its scale.



Put it this way, will Turkey's entry into the EU make your newspaper a better read, you car a cheaper drive or your beer taste better?

Will it improve the Pound in your pocket or the quality of the programmes on television or the performances of theatre actors?

Will it make your job safer?
Well, Cameron, I don't understand why you think I favour EU membership, which would have not worth of economic benefit, plut will have many adverse effect, on Turkish economy. You probably guessed that I do. Please read my post #10. I don't want my child to pay tax for aging European population and unproductive EU economy and system neither want to share my resources, interest in Caucasia and Mideast.

Why Turkey should be in EU?

It is nothing to do with cultural issues. Thats all politic and economic. EU is politic issue.

I have many atheist friends, I have never judge them according to their belieft. Their being religious people don't make much things. People should not be judged according to their religion. Why religion is much important? Religion is private issue, and should be private between God and individual. It is like interfering with sexual relationships between wife and husband.

I don't understand what "thrust bang in the spotlight" means, excuse my english.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Nice little debate. Just a few loose ends to tie.



Did we then tar all Catholics as following a religion of hate? Of course we didn't.
There's a fundamental difference between the motivation of Islam and the motivation of Christianity, though both have seen violence and suffering imposed for them. I've gone into it many times, with plenty of links, though to recap Islam was established as a creed of war with no mention of love in its 'quick installation' manual the Koran.


I don't understand why you think I favour EU membership.
I don't. That question was purely rhetorical.


I don't understand what "thrust bang in the spotlight" means, excuse my english.
It means being the centre of attention and not surprising. It seemed like, before September 11, we were blissfully ignorant of fundamentalist Islam, particularly the Whabbyist sect. Now it's out in the open where we can all learn from it.
 

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Nice little debate. Just a few loose ends to tie.





There's a fundamental difference between the motivation of Islam and the motivation of Christianity, though both have seen violence and suffering imposed for them. I've gone into it many times, with plenty of links, though to recap Islam was established as a creed of war with no mention of love in its 'quick installation' manual the Koran.
Violance and suffering is result of motivations of teocratic leaders, not actually the motivations of Islam and Christianity. I am interested in Islam as being a muslim. I don't know much thing about Christianity but I think they are peacefull religion. The fact that first muslims were persecuted, and they had to defend themshelf doesn't make Islam deprived of no mention of love. There are times peacefull people have to fight too.

I am trying to understand what is the difference calling IRA Catholic terrorism and calling taleban Islamic terrorism.

The problem is not the religion itshelf, the problem is in what politic purpose you use it. There are many fool of many religion eager to be deceived, because they pray their religion not to God.


I don't. That question was purely rhetorical.

I think that was surelly fair question.

It means being the centre of attention and not surprising. It seemed like, before September 11, we were blissfully ignorant of fundamentalist Islam, particularly the Whabbyist sect. Now it's out in the open where we can all learn from it.
 

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I am trying to understand what is the difference calling IRA Catholic terrorism and calling taleban Islamic terrorism.
Jesus Christ was, as far as we know, a non-violent prophet whose religion has undergone many reformations to evolve into a fully benign and beneficial cultural experience, based on the goodness of man. Islam was a religion built for conquest, with any exhortations to goodness valid only between Muslims or cancelled by abrogation.

Both religions have had suffering perpetuated in its name since their founding, as well as the fact both religions took in war as a fact of early life. But Islam also is supposed to stand unchanged for all time, its crude calls to bloody and violent supremacism and genocide still as valid now as they ever were.

Hence the fact that Islamic terrorism is religious in nature whilst IRA terrorism was perpetuated to blast the British from Irish soil. You never heard the IRA shouting for death for Christ whenever they bombed Harrods or Canary Wharf!





The fact that first muslims were persecuted, and they had to defend themshelf doesn't make Islam deprived of no mention of love.
You don't mean the bit where Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca for trying to force his new religion onto people, retreated to Medina to build up a following ostensibly based on peace before returning to Mecca to sack it in revenge - to the extent of murder, pillage and having one female community leader pulled apart live between two camels?!

Not the same Islam whose holy Koran orders Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavour (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" for ransom (47:4)?

(Though I wouldn't be surprised if the 'holohoaxers' at WH Smith purged all that from their versions of the book!)


I still can't find any equivilent of 'love thy neighbour', or 'Lord forgive them for they know not what they do' though. I'd love to be proved wrong on this point.
 
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You don't mean the bit where Muhammad was kicked out of Mecca for trying to force his new religion onto people, retreated to Medina to build up a following ostensibly based on peace before returning to Mecca to sack it in revenge - to the extent of having one female community leader pulled apart live between two camels?!
You fight with them when they are your enemy, you stop fight when they stop being enemy. Do you have other choice when diplomacy is fruitless?

Not the same Islam whose holy Koran orders Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), slay them (9:5), fight with them (8:65 ), strive against them with great endeavour (25:52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (66:9) and strike off their heads; then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" for ransom (47:4)?
The disbelievers. Disbelievers necessarily all around the world? The Disbeliever who atack you?

the ones above are fair question to think on.
If ones don't defend yourshelf in war, It doesn't make one peacefull, It does make one fool. Kuran regulated when to fight which is aproveable aproach. You are not allowed to fight with people who are in peace with you.

(Though I wouldn't be surprised if the 'holohoaxers' at WH Smith purged all that from their versions of the book!)
Why?


I still can't find any equivilent of 'love thy neighbour', or 'Lord forgive them for they know not what they do' though. I'd love to be proved wrong on this point.
You say you can't find which is probably result of searching. Can I get it as you have read the book?
I can find when I seek for it.

041.033 And who is better in speech than him who prayeth unto his Lord and doeth � right, and saith: Lo! I am of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). � �
041.034 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one � which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) � as though he was a bosom friend. � �
I can't find when I don't.
 

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Jesus Christ was, as far as we know, a non-violent prophet whose religion has undergone many reformations to evolve into a fully benign and beneficial cultural experience, based on the goodness of man.
What is the sense in comparing Islam and Christianity?

Islam was a religion built for conquest, with any exhortations to goodness valid only between Muslims or cancelled by abrogation.
So there should be some orders to destroy existing peace in the holly source of the religion. Goodness is not limited between Muslims It is unmeaningfull.

Both religions have had suffering perpetuated in its name since their founding, as well as the fact both religions took in war as a fact of early life. But Islam also is supposed to stand unchanged for all time, its crude calls to bloody and violent supremacism and genocide still as valid now as they ever were.

Hence the fact that Islamic terrorism is religious in nature whilst IRA terrorism was perpetuated to blast the British from Irish soil. You never heard the IRA shouting for death for Christ whenever they bombed Harrods or Canary Wharf!
Teocratic rules don't have to be fit well with the religion. It is matter of satisfieing earthly matters. You can know who has money as well as who has faith. Religious influence and money are both investment in one sense.
 

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Still thinking on why we are talking about religion while the topic is EU membership.
 

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You asked me a question of religion, so I answered.


I think a little taqiyya may be at work here, but that could just be my sceptical mind. However, there is some fodder for debate.


First off, Islam's always at war. And despite the many atrocity stories, Muslims always tell us it was always somebody else to blame for any fighting. Just as I suppose it was someone else's fault that the Moors came to Spain or that Islamic armies only reached Vienna during the 17th century.

Muhammad the gang leader needed some pretext to justify his violence and playing victim was always the most expedient: Muhammad: The Jihad Begins

Europeans had to have the Crusades to push the Islamics back: Violence in the Koran


Muslims are not these defenceless people always at the mercy of absolutely everyone else in the world. Muslims have always been more than capable of slugging for themselves, their prophet being the guiding light.



041.033 And who is better in speech than him who prayeth unto his Lord and doeth � right, and saith: Lo! I am of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). � �
041.034 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one � which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) � as though he was a bosom friend
And that's love is it? Assuaging guilt more like it.



Goodness is not limited between Muslims It is unmeaningfull.
If you're trying to say that goodness should be shown to everyone then I agree, but what I said is how things stand in Islam. Hence the whole concept of taqiyya and Muhammad telling his followers that Muslims must never believe any infidel (3:73), that disbelievers all hate the Muslims (3:118), that peaceful Muslims wiill go to hell (2:193, 2:206, 2:216), all non-Muslims are criminals (5:45) all disbelievers of other religions are evil (5:59), that disbelievers are hated by Allah and will suffer eternal fire (take your pick) or that Muslims have unlimited licence to kill infidels (4:101).

This is more than just retaliating against bullying. It's a blank cheque to do as you will, other than against other Muslims
http://www.bigpicweblog.com/exp/ind..._that_to_kill_one_man_is_to_kill_all_mankind/


The full list seems endless.
 
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Andalublue

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Yes, I think William of Orange even used harsher terms when he created the injustice that's still causing problems today. Over the course the conflict itself has become the center of attention but it used to be ethnicity and religion.
That's going back a bit beyond The Troubles, but you have a point. However, the Glorious Revolution was about religion, not ethnicity. It was also about dynastic struggles between rival members of the House of Stuart. The Irish campaigns of 1689-1692 were a manipulation of ethnic tensions towards a dynastic and religious end. King James was not Irish and yet his followers there were. They supported him because he was Catholic, no ethnicity involved in that allegiance. King William was Dutch, yet his supporters were English, Scottish and Irish protestants, so no ethnic element there either. That there was ethnic tensions between the non-Irish settlers and the Celtic Irish is certain, yet was not the cause of the conflict, nor even its engine. That was religion and dynastic pretensions.
 

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That's going back a bit beyond The Troubles, but you have a point. However, the Glorious Revolution was about religion, not ethnicity. It was also about dynastic struggles between rival members of the House of Stuart. The Irish campaigns of 1689-1692 were a manipulation of ethnic tensions towards a dynastic and religious end. King James was not Irish and yet his followers there were. They supported him because he was Catholic, no ethnicity involved in that allegiance. King William was Dutch, yet his supporters were English, Scottish and Irish protestants, so no ethnic element there either. That there was ethnic tensions between the non-Irish settlers and the Celtic Irish is certain, yet was not the cause of the conflict, nor even its engine. That was religion and dynastic pretensions.
Ok, you clearly know more about this than me ;)
I always thought that the conflict, in part, was due to the ´colonisation´ of Ireland by the British. I saw this docu about the great famine in the 19th century the other day and I wouldn´t want to blame that on religion.
 

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Ok, you clearly know more about this than me ;)
I always thought that the conflict, in part, was due to the ´colonisation´ of Ireland by the British. I saw this docu about the great famine in the 19th century the other day and I wouldn´t want to blame that on religion.
Ah, well that dates back significantly further. English colonisation of Ireland dates back to 1155 when the Pope granted Henry II of England overlordship of Ireland. As they has done a century earlier in England, Norman barons then took feudal possession of various lands by force of arms. Thereafter colonisation from England and Scotland took place in several waves. The Scots, by the way, were not exactly colonising, more re-colonising, as they had been Irish themselves originally before the Irish colonisation of west and south west Scotland in the 8th and 9th centuries.

Many of those who supported King James in the 17th century were descendants of Normans, Vikings and Celts. The common factor in their support of him was religion.
 
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