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"Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12:46]

Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Lord Tammerlain said:
Is it any more racist/antisemitic then people suggesting the Palestinians should be moved as Faithful Servant mentions above my post or Ben Carson suggesting they should be moved to Egypt? Just an update Mike Huckabee made a similar suggestion to what Ben Carson said.
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Whats really shocking is that thet the Palestinians HAVE been moved, and that this fictional situation somehow generates less controversy then what the Palestinians have actually lived through.

As regards Ken Livingstones comments his only error was that he was talking about the wrong facist dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
 
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Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Red_Dave said:
Whats really shocking is that thet the Palestinians HAVE been moved, and that this fictional situation somehow generates less controversy then what the Palestinians have actually lived through.
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So let me see if I got it right - you're furious that people take issue with this statement because they don't take more issue with something that this statement was not about? Is that it?
And why is it that you fail to mention the fact that Jews were kicked out of their homes and lands in Arab countries for being Jewish during the time of Israel's war of independence? Do you only have sympathy with people of a certain ethnicity? Of course the Palestinian-Arab situation isn't close to the situation of the Jews living in Arab countries who were removed from their countries simply for being Jewish and not - as was the case with the Palestinian Arabs - as part of a war their leadership and the Arab nations have called on Israel intending to annihilate it and kick the Jews out of the land.

Furthermore you have failed to note that a majority among those displaced have left on their own - and weren't kicked out by Israeli forces - due to the orders they received from the Arab leadership to evacuate the areas and come back once the war is over and the Jews are either gone or dead, and the fact that 20% of Israel's population is indeed made of Arabs, meaning that it's not something "the Palestinians have actually lived through" but rather parts of them, and if we consider what I've brought up before about only a minority of those displaced actually being removed by Israeli forces - a tiny and small minority of them "have lived through it". And again they haven't "lived through" what the Jews who have lived in Arab lands have, you must agree, even though you've chosen not to discuss it at all and thus according to your standards - that is shocking, correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

As regards Ken Livingstones comments his only error was that he was talking about the wrong facist dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
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I believe he has indeed referried to Hitler, so his only error was a huge error as there is a huge difference between the two. It's nice to see you condemning his words though, it'd be insanely immoral if you weren't.
 
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Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Apocalypse said:
I believe he has indeed referried to Hitler, so his only error was a huge error as there is a huge difference between the two. It's nice to see you condemning his words though, it'd be insanely immoral if you weren't.
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Confusing your facist dictators is a moral issue now?
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Red_Dave said:
Confusing your facist dictators is a moral issue now?
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Your claim that he has actually confused the two has to be the funniest and most absurd excuse I've seen in my time here.
I thought you were attempting to divert attention at first but now it seems like your argument really is that he was merely confusing the two, hysterical.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Apocalypse said:
Your claim that he has actually confused the two has to be the funniest and most absurd excuse I've seen in my time here.
I thought you were attempting to divert attention at first but now it seems like your argument really is that he was merely confusing the two, hysterical.
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I dont think he meant to say Mussolini but that it came out Hitler. I´m just saying that i fail to see what is so offensive about a historical error.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Red_Dave said:
I dont think he meant to say Mussolini but that it came out Hitler. I´m just saying that i fail to see what is so offensive about a historical error.
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The first part of your sentence answers the question in the second part.
If he didn't mean to say Mussolini, it's not a simple historical error when he's saying Hitler. He meant to say Hitler.
Everyone knows who is Hitler, if there's one historical figure you can't mistake for another it's him.
He was using Hitler, like many do in their attempts ot make a strong statement, to suggest that Hitler has supported Zionism and thus attack Zionism - the belief that Jews have a right to self-determination in the lands of Israel, and in modern times the belief that the Jewish state should continue to exist - through the greatest villain in the history of the Jewish people and perhaps the world. It is no mere "historical error" here you can be certain of that.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

gunner said:
- What the heck is going on with Labour.....
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Did you see that John Mann MP was reprimanded for confronting Livingstone in public? Labour should have actually held him up as an example that they are serious about rooting out anti-Semitism.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Infinite Chaos said:
Did you see that John Mann MP was reprimanded for confronting Livingstone in public? Labour should have actually held him up as an example that they are serious about rooting out anti-Semitism.
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There seems confusion over this, some reports suggest it was Corbyn that wanted him suspended for aggressive behaviour. Corbyn is absolute joke, and will keep Labour in the wilderness for years.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Considering the fetish the U.S has for Israel, that's not a bad idea. It'll certainly shorten the commute, and perhaps the U.S will finally disengage from the Middle East before it brings about its demise. Furthermore, in light of the hackneyed Zionist propaganda that proclaims Palestine to be too small for two peoples and two states and prescribes the absorption of the Palestinian people by neighboring countries, the solution is opportune. The U.S is larger and much richer than Arabia, and it's already besotted with Israel.

Give them part of Nevada, right next to Las Vegas. This way, the Adelsons will no longer have to resort to tax heavens and shell corporations to funnel money to the Likud and settler thugs. They can even build a biblical theme park and reenact the Israelites, the Crucifixion, and the Second Coming till the end of times instead of wreaking havoc and destroying peoples in a remote region in the name of a benevolent God that preaches peace and love.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Gaztopian said:
Considering the fetish the U.S has for Israel, that's not a bad idea. It'll certainly shorten the commute, and perhaps the U.S will finally disengage from the Middle East before it brings about its demise. Furthermore, in light of the hackneyed Zionist propaganda that proclaims Palestine to be too small for two peoples and two states and prescribes the absorption of the Palestinian people by neighboring countries, the solution is opportune. The U.S is larger and much richer than Arabia, and it's already besotted with Israel.

Give them part of Nevada, right next to Las Vegas. This way, the Adelsons will no longer have to resort to tax heavens and shell corporations to funnel money to the Likud and settler thugs. They can even build a biblical theme park and reenact the Israelites, the Crucifixion, and the Second Coming till the end of times instead of wreaking havoc and destroying peoples in a remote region in the name of a benevolent God that preaches peace and love.
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Any desire to ask the Israeli people about this at all?
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Chagos said:
Any desire to ask the Israeli people about this at all?
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I don't know. Zionism isn't too concerned with self-determination.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Gaztopian said:
Considering the fetish the U.S has for Israel, that's not a bad idea. It'll certainly shorten the commute, and perhaps the U.S will finally disengage from the Middle East before it brings about its demise. Furthermore, in light of the hackneyed Zionist propaganda that proclaims Palestine to be too small for two peoples and two states and prescribes the absorption of the Palestinian people by neighboring countries, the solution is opportune. The U.S is larger and much richer than Arabia, and it's already besotted with Israel.

Give them part of Nevada, right next to Las Vegas. This way, the Adelsons will no longer have to resort to tax heavens and shell corporations to funnel money to the Likud and settler thugs. They can even build a biblical theme park and reenact the Israelites, the Crucifixion, and the Second Coming till the end of times instead of wreaking havoc and destroying peoples in a remote region in the name of a benevolent God that preaches peace and love.
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I dunno for some reason I feel like I've just read a long and tiring opinion piece on the Guardian.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

There WAS a Nazi-Zionist agreement and Hitler DID support it

“The Haavara Agreement was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany.

The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine.

While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to temporarily give up possessions to Germany before departing. Those possessions could later be re-obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.

The agreement was controversial at the time, and was criticised by many Jewish leaders both within the Zionist movement and outside it.

Hitler’s own support of the Haavara Agreement was unclear and varied throughout the 1930s.
Initially, Hitler criticized the agreement, but reversed his opinion and supported it in the period 1937-1939.”

Livingstone vindicated: There WAS a Nazi-Zionist agreement and Hitler DID support it | Vox Political
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

calm said:
There WAS a Nazi-Zionist agreement and Hitler DID support it

“The Haavara Agreement was an agreement between Nazi Germany and Zionist German Jews signed on 25 August 1933.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

The agreement was finalized after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany.

The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine.

While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to temporarily give up possessions to Germany before departing. Those possessions could later be re-obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.

The agreement was controversial at the time, and was criticised by many Jewish leaders both within the Zionist movement and outside it.

Hitler’s own support of the Haavara Agreement was unclear and varied throughout the 1930s.
Initially, Hitler criticized the agreement, but reversed his opinion and supported it in the period 1937-1939.”

Livingstone vindicated: There WAS a Nazi-Zionist agreement and Hitler DID support it | Vox Political
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The primary Nazi interest in this was to rob German Jews of their domestic wealth without incurring international sanctions and to counter a feared trade boycott.

The whole dastardly affair has ever since been used to "evidence" joint Nazi-Zionist interests. Which is of course total rubbish and, where expressed, blatantly dishonest.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Haggai Segal, the editor of the Israeli newspaper Makor Rishon .... who is very close to Netanyahu, had no problem encouraging the Palestinian People to move and create a Palestinian State in Egypt, in return for a respectable sum of money.

This does not seem much different than suggesting that the Jews move to America.

Additional Information concerning the Haavara Agreement:

"....the main goal of Germany's Jewish policy was to encourage the Jews to emigrate. After the beginning of the international Jewish boycott against German goods in March 1933, the Jewish community in Palestine contacted the German government and offered a break in the boycott as far as Palestine was concerned provided it was combined with Jewish emigration from Germany. As a result, the "Haavara" or "Transfer" agreement was signed by the Germans and Jews in May 1933.

The Jewish community thus concluded an extremely beneficial agreement with the National Socialist government only a few months after its formation. This agreement was a crucial phase in the creation of the State of Israel.

.... The Haavara agreement made it possible for any Jew to emigrate from Germany with practically all of his possessions and personal fortune provided that Jews could deposit all of their assets in one of two Jewish-owned banks in Germany which had branch offices in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Upon arrival in Palestine they could withdraw their assets according to the terms of the agreement. The German capital of these two Jewish banking firms was guaranteed by the German government. Even after the war these assets were fully available to the Jewish owners or their representatives If a Jew did not wish to emigrate immediately he could transfer all of his personal assets to Palestine where they would be safeguarded by a trustee while he remained in Germany for an indefinite period with emigration as his eventual goal. In the meantime his personal fortune was safe outside of Germany.

Even poorer Jews who did not possess 1,000 English pounds were able to emigrate to Palestine with credits provided through the Haavara. The British authorities generally required minimum assets of 1,000 pounds for each immigrant to Palestine if he was not entitled to a so-called worker's certificate. Only a limited number of these certificates were available and they were issued only to persons with special job skills. In addition, Jews emigrating to Palestine were exempt from the so-called "Reich flight tax," which all emigrating Germans normally had to pay. However, the Jewish companies which arranged the transfers charged the emigrants a fixed percentage of their total assets. The Haavara agreement remained in operation until the end of 1941 when the United States entered the war."
 
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Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Chagos said:
And this you know how?
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A chief premise of the opponents of mass Jewish immigration to Palestine, whether the White Paper's sponsors or democracy's advocates and the anti-colonialists of the time, was that the Palestinian people had a right to self-determination, and since the native population rejected a Jewish majority in Palestine and a Jewish state that would render them a hapless minority, mass Jewish immigration was delegitimized. Of course we now know that the Zionists weren't too concerned with the matter. In fact, Jabotinsky took to the pen and ridiculed the premise all together.

Not much has changed. Israel is comfortable with parading its intellectual and moral superiority, vaunting the virtues of the Israeli society, and weeping and whaling about what's been done to the Jewish people, while occupying another people and denying them the right to self-determination. It's comfortable with ravaging and disgracing them on daily basis and treating them like cattle.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Gaztopian said:
A chief premise of the opponents of mass Jewish immigration to Palestine, whether the White Paper's sponsors or democracy's advocates and the anti-colonialists of the time, was that the Palestinian people had a right to self-determination, and since the native population rejected a Jewish majority in Palestine and a Jewish state that would render them a hapless minority, mass Jewish immigration was delegitimized. Of course we now know that the Zionists weren't too concerned with the matter. In fact, Jabotinsky took to the pen and ridiculed the premise all together.

Not much has changed. Israel is comfortable with parading its intellectual and moral superiority, vaunting the virtues of the Israeli society, and weeping and whaling about what's been done to the Jewish people, while occupying another people and denying them the right to self-determination. It's comfortable with ravaging and disgracing them on daily basis and treating them like cattle.
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However one wishes to see this (in agreement or disagreement, partially or wholly) it still takes us back to the question of "asking the Israeli people" upon their take over being resettled.

The issue that initiated our exchange.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Moderator's Warning:
This is the topic of the thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/israel-palestine/252102-move-israel-us-naz-shah-disgraced-w-12-a.html

"Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced

Not Nazi policy with regard to Zionism, the creation of the Jewish state or anything related to that.

If anyone desires to discuss those topics or anything else not related to the OP, open a new thread, but comments made in this thread from here on out need to be directly related to the OP.

Thank you.
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Chagos said:
However one wishes to see this (in agreement or disagreement, partially or wholly) it still takes us back to the question of "asking the Israeli people" upon their take over being resettled.

The issue that initiated our exchange.
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And how exactly does it do that? Zionism in collusion with the world relied on its own moral and practical justification to coerce the native population into accepting a Jewish majority. No referendums, plebiscites, or elections created the Jewish state; it was rifles, car bombs, massacres, and expulsions that erected it. More than 70 years later, not much has changed, except for the state facade of the same old injustices. Why can't the pro-Palestinian caucus employ its own moral and practical justification to lobby and work for the relocation of the Jewish state to the U.S, the greatest benefactor of the Jewish people, in order to bring relief to a people that have known nothing but brutality, disgrace, humiliation, ravaging, and utter ruin for the past century?
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Gaztopian said:
And how exactly does it do that? Zionism in collusion with the world relied on its own moral and practical justification to coerce the native population into accepting a Jewish majority. No referendums, plebiscites, or elections created the Jewish state; it was rifles, car bombs, massacres, and expulsions that erected it. More than 70 years later, not much has changed, except for the state facade of the same old injustices. Why can't the pro-Palestinian caucus employ its own moral and practical justification to lobby and work for the relocation of the Jewish state to the U.S, the greatest benefactor of the Jewish people, in order to bring relief to a people that have known nothing but brutality, disgrace, humiliation, ravaging, and utter ruin for the past century?
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Moving away from the question again, I see.

Shall I repeat it?
 
Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

I thought that this article was rather informative ....

How Israel lobby manufactured UK Labour Party's anti-Semitism crisis
By Asa Winstanley
April 28, 2016
https://electronicintifada.net/cont...d-uk-labour-partys-anti-semitism-crisis/16481

This article details the complete history of the topic ....

Carnival of Ignorance
Carnival of ignorance | Jews for Justice for Palestinians


naz%2Bshah%2Btweet.jpg


The map was first posted By Norman Finkelstein ... "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict‏"
August 04, 2014
Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict� - Norman G. Finkelstein Norman G. Finkelstein
 
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Re: "Move Israel to the US" Naz Shah disgraced [W:12]

Chagos said:
Moving away from the question again, I see.

Shall I repeat it?
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That's rich. I was gracious enough not to call you out on your original cop-out for the sake of the discussion. Now you turn around and accuse me of a cop-out. It's one thing to lose an argument - it happens to all of us, but it's another to seek refuge in obstinacy.

Your question hinges on the principle of self-determination, but I demonstrated Zionism's disdain for it. Until you address that argument and explain why we must extend the principle to a people that deny it to others, you can parrot the question to yourself.
 
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