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Most of The World Could Be 100% Powered With Renewables by 2050

That isn't a counter-argument.

Not that you have one, you get the future you build, and vice versa.

Yes. I want a future built by forward thinking people who appropriate the economic realities. None of this needs to be forced. It will be a natural change in our lives, in the future.
 
Yes. I want a future built by forward thinking people who appropriate the economic realities. None of this needs to be forced. It will be a natural change in our lives, in the future.

The word natural doesn't apply to the technological world we have constructed. That's more of your fantasy world.

We get what we build, and if we don't build it, we don't get it.
 
The word natural doesn't apply to the technological world we have constructed. That's more of your fantasy world.

We get what we build, and if we don't build it, we don't get it.

Tell me.

Does natural mean more than "nature," or not?

Words have meaning. Do you know which meaning I was using, or are you going to prove confirmation bias is how you live?
 
Tell me.

Does natural mean more than "nature," or not?

Words have meaning. Do you know which meaning I was using, or are you going to prove confirmation bias is how you live?

Again, you need to construct an argument to make your point.

You don't because you can't. Not that there is much there to work with if you could...

We don't live in a natural world. It's an artificial construct we build.
 
Again, you need to construct an argument to make your point.

You don't because you can't. Not that there is much there to work with if you could...

Maybe if I knew what I was arguing against. All I see is someone repeating propaganda. Nothing worth arguing against, except to repeatedly point out that it is propaganda.
 
Maybe if I knew what I was arguing against. All I see is someone repeating propaganda. Nothing worth arguing against, except to repeatedly point out that it is propaganda.

The rubber and glue defense, a genuine classic.
 
It's about both, we need solar because we need to cut carbon.

Yeah, I can agree with that. When solar was a trivial part of the energy mix, the pricing wasn't important. But for solar to play a significant role in energy, then the pricing becomes very important.
Solar pricing is already very important, because we already have a situation where the utilities are not allowing
solar customers grid connections. They do own the grid, in most cases, and can say no!
Grid assist, a somewhat new category, allows the grid to backup your effectively off grid solar solution,
the problem is that we do not get the broader possible benefit of solar pushing surplus back into the grid.
You mentioned a national energy policy, and we do need one, but one which defines the agreement between home energy
producer and utility, in a way that both can live with.
 
Barclays bank busted for misleading customers on solar home “investment” that loses money


Tell me again how solar power is cheaper than fossil fuels

People in the UK have been misled into taking out loans to put solar panels on their roof — they were told the panels would “pay for themselves” but discovered they were losing money. The UK Ombudsman has received around 2,000 complaints.
Barclays bank hit by solar scandal

Solar manufacturers paired up with banks to install and finance solar installations telling customers they’d make money, except many didn’t:
… a common method was to encourage households to buy the panels on credit from a partner lender. Households were often told that the subsidy income, combined with the savings from buying less electricity, would more than cover the loan repayments. In some cases this proved to be false.
Many of those to whom panels were allegedly mis-sold were either “retired or approaching retirement” and some were “left in financial difficulty”, the financial ombudsman said. One customer was left £1,000 a year worse off.
We can all say fair’s fair, do your homework before you buy. But under UK law, the partner-banks are responsible for the financial scam not the solar manufacturers (and not the customers). Presumably the banks were the ones selling solar panels as if they were a get rich quick scheme.
Our whole nation has been fooled by a solar scheme. Just call us patsies-downunder.
Keep reading →
 
Renewable snowflake investors false tears for “certainty” (Gimmedat guaranteed income!)


When investors cry for certainty, what they really want is “no risks” and “your money”

The renewables industry only exists because of government largess. What the government giveth, so can it sucketh.
Now that the bountiful wheel of the Turnbull government is turning slightly toward other beneficiaries, the Australian renewables industry are holding crisis meetings. Feel the entitlement! Sophie Vorrath reports in RenewEconomy on the green industry disappointment with the NEG — (the theoretical new Australian plan for Weather-Management-with-Socialist-Electricity-Grids.)
The government is still picking winners, it’s just different winners:
NEG will block renewables, favour hydro and big retailers

Oliver Yates, head of UPC Renewables:

Yates said that setting emissions compliance cost on a path to zero could “pull the carpet out” from under existing solar and wind energy investments and actually stop future investments. “This is very bad for our industry and very bad for the nation as a whole, as this orderly investment and orderly transition towards using new generation assets is required.”
And – “as a banker” – Yates also warned against the mentality that the NEG could be legislated now, and tweaked later, under a future Labor government, or a more enlightened Coalition.
According to the Smart Energy Council, no one in Australia knows more about renewables finance than Oliver Yates. Boy is this industry in trouble.
“It is impossible to invest on the assumption of election results,” he said.
Dear Oliver, coal investors and everyone else, have been doing it for decades. It’s called “risk”.
“You cannot explain to your board, when you’re asking them to put money into a transaction, that the structural price of power could bounce around wildly, depending upon the outcomes of various state or federal election campaigns.”
The problem is not that governments and voters may change their minds, it’s that they should never have been messing with this market in the first place.
There is more than one path to “certainty”

Yates again:
“The only way that we can get certainty… is if the federal emissions level set within the NEG is around 50 per cent for the electricity sector.
No. No and double No. We get far more certainty with the free market where the price, demand and need for green electrons is zero, and the certain profits are nothin’. Since the effect of CO2 has been minimal for the last 500 million years, the price of CO2 will trend toward its true value. This is the kind of certainty that will last until the Sun goes supernova. We’ve got the next billion electoral cycles covered. How long will your bubble last?
Shovel it on with a spade:
“I can ensure you that no investor ever anticipated that the electricity sector would only reduce its emissions between 26-28 per cent by 2030. . . .

 
Barclays bank busted for misleading customers on solar home “investment” that loses money


Tell me again how solar power is cheaper than fossil fuels

People in the UK have been misled into taking out loans to put solar panels on their roof — they were told the panels would “pay for themselves” but discovered they were losing money. The UK Ombudsman has received around 2,000 complaints.
Barclays bank hit by solar scandal

Solar manufacturers paired up with banks to install and finance solar installations telling customers they’d make money, except many didn’t:
… a common method was to encourage households to buy the panels on credit from a partner lender. Households were often told that the subsidy income, combined with the savings from buying less electricity, would more than cover the loan repayments. In some cases this proved to be false.
Many of those to whom panels were allegedly mis-sold were either “retired or approaching retirement” and some were “left in financial difficulty”, the financial ombudsman said. One customer was left £1,000 a year worse off.
We can all say fair’s fair, do your homework before you buy. But under UK law, the partner-banks are responsible for the financial scam not the solar manufacturers (and not the customers). Presumably the banks were the ones selling solar panels as if they were a get rich quick scheme.
Our whole nation has been fooled by a solar scheme. Just call us patsies-downunder.
Keep reading →

I think a case can be made for solar as a savings investment, but not as a money maker.
To be fair, it is far better to not spend money than to have to earn more to spend it.
An example would be if a household spends $2400 a year on electricity, could reduce that to $1000 a year,
by installing a $20,000 grid tied solar system.
Form a financial standpoint , their savings would equal a 7% rate of return, representing $117 per month the homeowners do not have to earn.
The $20 sitting in a 401K might generate $16 a month.
 
I think a case can be made for solar as a savings investment, but not as a money maker.
To be fair, it is far better to not spend money than to have to earn more to spend it.
An example would be if a household spends $2400 a year on electricity, could reduce that to $1000 a year,
by installing a $20,000 grid tied solar system.
Form a financial standpoint , their savings would equal a 7% rate of return, representing $117 per month the homeowners do not have to earn.
The $20 sitting in a 401K might generate $16 a month.

Maybe, but that assumes no ongoing maintenance or repair costs.
 
Maybe, but that assumes no ongoing maintenance or repair costs.
Correct, but grid tied systems tend to be low maintenance.
The Batteries of off grid, or grid assist, are the real weak points.
 
Correct, but grid tied systems tend to be low maintenance.
The Batteries of off grid, or grid assist, are the real weak points.

Solar needs to go big.

Which means large scale storage, I don't know, or care, how the R&D shakes out, but we need to develop that tech.
 
Solar needs to go big.

Which means large scale storage, I don't know, or care, how the R&D shakes out, but we need to develop that tech.
Yes solar does need to go big, but to do so the Government need to smooth the path so solar can grow without
the current roadblocks. (They need a national grid tie policy.)
 
Yes solar does need to go big, but to do so the Government need to smooth the path so solar can grow without
the current roadblocks. (They need a national grid tie policy.)

Yup.

We need a national energy policy, and part of it needs to be a Smart Grid.
 
Renewable snowflake investors false tears for “certainty” (Gimmedat guaranteed income!)


When investors cry for certainty, what they really want is “no risks” and “your money”

The renewables industry only exists because of government largess. What the government giveth, so can it sucketh.
Now that the bountiful wheel of the Turnbull government is turning slightly toward other beneficiaries, the Australian renewables industry are holding crisis meetings. Feel the entitlement! Sophie Vorrath reports in RenewEconomy on the green industry disappointment with the NEG — (the theoretical new Australian plan for Weather-Management-with-Socialist-Electricity-Grids.)
The government is still picking winners, it’s just different winners:
NEG will block renewables, favour hydro and big retailers

Oliver Yates, head of UPC Renewables:

Yates said that setting emissions compliance cost on a path to zero could “pull the carpet out” from under existing solar and wind energy investments and actually stop future investments. “This is very bad for our industry and very bad for the nation as a whole, as this orderly investment and orderly transition towards using new generation assets is required.”
And – “as a banker” – Yates also warned against the mentality that the NEG could be legislated now, and tweaked later, under a future Labor government, or a more enlightened Coalition.
According to the Smart Energy Council, no one in Australia knows more about renewables finance than Oliver Yates. Boy is this industry in trouble.
“It is impossible to invest on the assumption of election results,” he said.
Dear Oliver, coal investors and everyone else, have been doing it for decades. It’s called “risk”.
“You cannot explain to your board, when you’re asking them to put money into a transaction, that the structural price of power could bounce around wildly, depending upon the outcomes of various state or federal election campaigns.”
The problem is not that governments and voters may change their minds, it’s that they should never have been messing with this market in the first place.
There is more than one path to “certainty”

Yates again:
“The only way that we can get certainty… is if the federal emissions level set within the NEG is around 50 per cent for the electricity sector.
No. No and double No. We get far more certainty with the free market where the price, demand and need for green electrons is zero, and the certain profits are nothin’. Since the effect of CO2 has been minimal for the last 500 million years, the price of CO2 will trend toward its true value. This is the kind of certainty that will last until the Sun goes supernova. We’ve got the next billion electoral cycles covered. How long will your bubble last?
Shovel it on with a spade:
“I can ensure you that no investor ever anticipated that the electricity sector would only reduce its emissions between 26-28 per cent by 2030. . . .


Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Once again I give thanks to the people that make a living working with solar that were honest enough to advise me that my area of NE Ohio does not receive sufficient continuous sunlight to justify even thinking about going solar! :mrgreen: I sympathize with those "Aussies" who are wondering what PM Turnbull will use as his excuse to continue closing plants that aren't "solar, " which has quadrupled the cost of an average family's utility bills!

Off topic, but recently you had posted that you were going to take a short vacation in Europe, visiting several countries. I may have missed it since I've been recovering from a bad fall several weeks ago, but were you able to go, and if so, I'd be interested in reading about your trip! :thumbs:
 
Yup.

We need a national energy policy, and part of it needs to be a Smart Grid.
The smart grid will help, but it will not fill in the massive gaps in duty cycle from wind and solar.
For electrical storage Sunfire has an interesting hydrogen storage unit.
Green Hydrogen - Sunfire
 
Greetings, Jack. :2wave:

Once again I give thanks to the people that make a living working with solar that were honest enough to advise me that my area of NE Ohio does not receive sufficient continuous sunlight to justify even thinking about going solar! :mrgreen: I sympathize with those "Aussies" who are wondering what PM Turnbull will use as his excuse to continue closing plants that aren't "solar, " which has quadrupled the cost of an average family's utility bills!

Off topic, but recently you had posted that you were going to take a short vacation in Europe, visiting several countries. I may have missed it since I've been recovering from a bad fall several weeks ago, but were you able to go, and if so, I'd be interested in reading about your trip! :thumbs:

Greetings, Polgara.:2wave:

Sorry to learn of your fall. Hope you have recovered well.
Yes, we just returned yesterday from two weeks in Bratislava. Details in the Good News thread.:mrgreen:
 
The smart grid will help, but it will not fill in the massive gaps in duty cycle from wind and solar.
For electrical storage Sunfire has an interesting hydrogen storage unit.
Green Hydrogen - Sunfire

We need to develop a different strategy for each region. HydroQuebec could fill the needs for a lot of New England, they have reserve capacity and have expressed an interest in expanding.

This will be a learning process, since we are doing a ground up redesign of the energy sector.
 
We need to develop a different strategy for each region. HydroQuebec could fill the needs for a lot of New England, they have reserve capacity and have expressed an interest in expanding.

This will be a learning process, since we are doing a ground up redesign of the energy sector.
We could start in Puerto Rico, they need a whole new electrical grid, might as well use it as a test case.
 
You live in a fantasy world.

Let's look at the first fully capitalist economy for a moment. When England was developing it's economy, the government kept getting dragged into dealing with problems. The landed gentry held enormous power, and they were extremely conservative. They resisted every time, and they lost nearly every time. The reason is simple, the government had to get involved in infrastructure, regulation, or the economic development would slow dramatically.

Capitalism depends on the government to provide a stable environment to do business in. It's obvious that they need roads and bridges, that plagues need to be prevented, that kids need to be educated.

But it has escaped you.

The future doesn't happen magically. Your magical fairy dust is just so much bull****.

You get the future you build.

Yes, take for example that lead paint was sold for many more decades in USA compared to countries there the government banned lead paint early one. That his have led to huge social costs in USA that is still felt today.

John Oliver, Sesame Street Warn on Lead on Last Week Tonight | Time



While goverment regulations on coal plants during the last decade in USA have drastically decrease the number of deaths from particle pollution.

Death and Disease from Power Plants - Clean Air Task Force (CATF)
 
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