"Most Americans don't seem to understand that WWII was an inter-imperial war"

[Tigerace117]

15:12- "The United States was really committed to keeping the racial and colonial order of the world."

The United States and Japan’s main point of contention was Japan’s psychotically brutal attack on China.

The narrative doesn’t fit.

 

[Antiwar]

15:52 - 16:25

"It's really about securing empire. So you label somebody as seditious, unAmerican, anti-American if they're struggling, if they're mobilizing against empire, against white supremacy."

 

[Antiwar]

The United States and Japan’s main point of contention was Japan’s psychotically brutal attack on China.

The narrative doesn’t fit.

He's talking mostly about the Philippines, at that point.

~16:40- "The United States ruled over the Phillippines from 1898 to 1946."

 

[Tigerace117]

He's talking mostly about the Philippines, at that point.

Which, again, was legally mandated—- under US law— to gain independence within less than five years when Japan invaded and occupied them, beginning a campaign of mass murder and rape which saw over a hundred thousand Filipinos killed in a string of atrocities committed by the occupiers(and that’s just in the outright war crimes; another four hundred thousand or so would die before the war ended).

If the US was really interested in “securing empire” it wouldn’t be letting the Philippines go.

 

[jnug]

15:12- "The United States was really committed to keeping the racial and colonial order of the world."

You can make that case for the UK or Britain if you will, but not for the United States. For the United States, if there was a buck in it, IT WAS ON. The United States couldn't give a crap about worldwide white supremacy. Our "ideology" was capitalism. Our geopolitical reason for existence was Capitalism.

Now, domestic white supremacy in the United States is a different story, particularly when some fat, white, orange haired jerk sporting ducktails comes along and scares the shit out of other White People, playing on fears that have existed here since the 16th and 17th century.

 

[Antiwar]

Discussion of Japan starts at 17:10.

"Some people saw Japan as an empire fighting against the West/empire/white supremacy."

~19:20- "Formally ... the United States agrees to honor Japan's claims over Korea, and in return Japan agrees to honor US claims over the Philippines. Formally, they are in complete alignment, they are both about empire. Behind the scenes, Theodore Roosevelt begins to wonder if Japan has larger ambitions; to take over the Philippine, to take over Asia. Around 1906-7 the US military begins to devise war plans against Japan, in particular."

 

[Tigerace117]

Discussion of Japan starts at 17:10.

"Some people saw Japan as an empire fighting against the West/empire/white supremacy."

~19:20- "Formally ... the United States agrees to honor Japan's claims over Korea, and in return Japan agrees to honor US claims over the Philippines."

Which was laughable. Japan was fighting to conquer Asia for itself, as its troops’ behavior made abundantly clear the second they arrived in any country they occupied.

 

[jnug]

Which was laughable. Japan was fighting to conquer Asia for itself, as its troops’ behavior made abundantly clear the second they arrived in any country they occupied.

I don't get why this is so hard for people. Remember, this is IMPERIAL Japan we are talking about. Imperial Japan had more in common with the Monarchy's of Europe than it had to do with Asian cultural differences. Monarchy at scale virtually demands conquest. That is only one of the things that makes Monarchy the worst form of governance ever devised by man.

Worth noting that Putin harkens back to the Czars utterly denigrating everything in between him and the Czars as flawed and entirely responsible for his actions now. Ah-huh...nice rationalization Vladimir.

 

[multivita-man]

They literally abused the civilian populace so badly everywhere they went that even those most devoted to fighting against European colonialism quickly realized how much worse the Japanese were.

For example, in Burma…

“The resulting hardships and Japanese militaristic attitudes turned the majority Burman population against the Japanese. The insensitive attitude of the Japanese Army extended to the BNA. Even the officers of the BNA were obliged to salute low-ranking privates of the Imperial Japanese Army as their superiors. Aung San soon became disillusioned about Japanese promises of true independence and of Japan's ability to win the war. As the British General in the Burma Campaign William Slim put it:

Burma Independence Army - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's not as simple as you make it seem. I'm not defending Japanese imperialism - it was imperialism after all. But it's doubtful that it was any worse than Western imperialism. Are there examples of brutality? Absolutely - lots of them. But the same is true of Western colonialism.

 

[Mithrae]

None of the Western Allies had anything even approaching Unit 731.

But let me guess, you don’t even know what Unit 731 was, do you?

Interesting...

While Unit 731 researchers arrested by Soviet forces were tried at the December 1949 Khabarovsk war crime trials, those captured by the United States were secretly given immunity in exchange for the data gathered during their human experiments.[6] The Americans coopted the researchers' bioweapons information and experience for use in their own biological warfare program, much as they had done with German researchers in Operation Paperclip.[7] Chinese accounts were largely dismissed as communist propaganda.[8]​

Unit 731 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That sounds like the USA was indeed "approaching" Unit 731 in terms of objectives, 'progress' and excusing/turning a blind eye to atrocities.

 

[Mithrae]

It's not as simple as you make it seem. I'm not defending Japanese imperialism - it was imperialism after all. But it's doubtful that it was any worse than Western imperialism. Are there examples of brutality? Absolutely - lots of them. But the same is true of Western colonialism.

On British rule in Kenya, in the 1950s:

Over the gates of Auschwitz were the words “Work Makes You Free”. Over the gates of the Solovetsky camp in Lenin’s gulag: “Through Labour – Freedom!”. Over the gates of the Ngenya detention camp, run by the British in Kenya: “Labour and Freedom”(1). Dehumanisation appears to follow an almost inexorable course.

Last week, three elderly Kenyans established the right to sue the British government for the torture they suffered – castration, beating and rape – in the Kikuyu detention camps it ran in the 1950s(2).

Many tens of thousands were detained and tortured in the camps. I won’t spare you the details: we have been sparing ourselves the details for far too long. Large numbers of men were castrated with pliers(3). Others were anally raped, sometimes with the use of knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels and scorpions(4). Women had similar instruments forced into their vaginas. The guards and officials sliced off ears and fingers, gouged out eyes, mutilated women’s breasts with pliers, poured paraffin over people and set them alight(5). Untold thousands died.

The government’s secret archive, revealed this April, shows that the attorney-general, the colonial governor and the colonial secretary knew what was happening(6). The governor ensured that the perpetrators had legal immunity: including the British officers reported to him for roasting prisoners to death(7). In public the colonial secretary lied and kept lying(8). . . .

The Empire Strikes Back

Imperialism did almost as much harm to the ruling nations as it did to their subject peoples. By George Monbiot, published in the Guardian 9th October 2012 Over the gates of Auschwitz were the words “Work Makes You Free”. Over the gates of the Solovetsky camp in Lenin’s gulag: “Through Labour –...

www.monbiot.com

Again, this was after all of the supposed moral outrage against the Germans and Japanese, after the creation and signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If we think that British or American or Western imperialism was ever any more humane than the imperialism of Germany or Japan or China, it's only because our societies keep us willfully and blissfully ignorant of our own histories while emphasizing the crimes of our rivals.

 

[Integrityrespec]

The way the Japanese treated those it occupied really wasn’t comparable though. The Japanese were on a whole other level of brutality.....far worse than any previously experienced.

I'm sure those that suffered under Nazi rule and the death camps and work camps might argue that point with you. The Germans did experimentation on thousands of prisoners in the camps.

 

[multivita-man]

Imperial Japan had more in common with the Monarchy's of Europe than it had to do with Asian cultural differences.

I absolutely disagree with this statement. In 1868 - just 70 years earlier - the Emperor didn't even really rule Japan; it was governed mostly by landowners (daimyo), who were effectively governed by a chief feudal lord (warlord?) called a shogun. Yes, there was the emperor, but for about 800-900 years before Japan's modernization in the late 1800s, it was really the warlords who held most of the real power in Japan.

Monarchy at scale virtually demands conquest.

Ironically, it was Americans who introduced Japan to modern colonialism and imperialism, and it's imperialism that motivated Japan to conquest. That is not to say that Japan never attempted conquest. The Western Japanese warlord Hideyoshi attempted to take over Korea in 1592. They struggled to subdue the Koreans and at one point sought Chinese help to finally conquer Korea. China refused knowing that they could end up fighting Japan. Frustrated, Hideyoshi left but not before burning Seoul to the ground, and to this day, you can visit historical site after site and read signs about how culturally important buildings were burned to the ground by the Japanese. In fairness, it was the Western Japanese under Hideyoshi - modern day Japan as now know it came to be in or around the year 1600 under Tokugawa Ieyasu. The capital finally moved from Kyoto to 'Edo' (now Tokyo).

 

[Hamish Howl]

There are posters here that are simply incapable of separating their Socialist nirvana desires from the actual history. Thus EVERYTHING is the fault of capitalism. Clearly I am straining credibility to make a point. However, unfortunately I am not far off in my analysis.

Imagine being a socialist and finding yourself defending actual fascists.

 

[multivita-man]

Again, this was after all of the supposed moral outrage against the Germans and Japanese, after the creation and signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If we think that British or American or Western imperialism was ever any more humane than the imperialism of Germany or Japan or China, it's only because our societies keep us willfully and blissfully ignorant of our own histories while emphasizing the crimes of our rivals.

Generally speaking, European colonialism was a horrid disaster for Africa. Some of the most brutal atrocities that never get talked about - and that's not even talking about the slave trade.

 

[Tigerace117]

It's not as simple as you make it seem. I'm not defending Japanese imperialism - it was imperialism after all. But it's doubtful that it was any worse than Western imperialism. Are there examples of brutality? Absolutely - lots of them. But the same is true of Western colonialism.

You do realize that the colonial subjects of those western nations, when faced with the choice, wound up overwhelmingly siding with the Allies against the Japanese….. right?

There’s no equivalence here. European colonialism was bad, but there was no equivalence to Unit 731, or the mass rape camps, or the kind of shit Japanese troops regularly got up to in China.

 

[Integrityrespec]

On British rule in Kenya, in the 1950s:

Over the gates of Auschwitz were the words “Work Makes You Free”. Over the gates of the Solovetsky camp in Lenin’s gulag: “Through Labour – Freedom!”. Over the gates of the Ngenya detention camp, run by the British in Kenya: “Labour and Freedom”(1). Dehumanisation appears to follow an almost inexorable course.

Last week, three elderly Kenyans established the right to sue the British government for the torture they suffered – castration, beating and rape – in the Kikuyu detention camps it ran in the 1950s(2).

Many tens of thousands were detained and tortured in the camps. I won’t spare you the details: we have been sparing ourselves the details for far too long. Large numbers of men were castrated with pliers(3). Others were anally raped, sometimes with the use of knives, broken bottles, rifle barrels and scorpions(4). Women had similar instruments forced into their vaginas. The guards and officials sliced off ears and fingers, gouged out eyes, mutilated women’s breasts with pliers, poured paraffin over people and set them alight(5). Untold thousands died.

The government’s secret archive, revealed this April, shows that the attorney-general, the colonial governor and the colonial secretary knew what was happening(6). The governor ensured that the perpetrators had legal immunity: including the British officers reported to him for roasting prisoners to death(7). In public the colonial secretary lied and kept lying(8). . . .

The Empire Strikes Back

Imperialism did almost as much harm to the ruling nations as it did to their subject peoples. By George Monbiot, published in the Guardian 9th October 2012 Over the gates of Auschwitz were the words “Work Makes You Free”. Over the gates of the Solovetsky camp in Lenin’s gulag: “Through Labour –...

www.monbiot.com

Again, this was after all of the supposed moral outrage against the Germans and Japanese, after the creation and signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If we think that British or American or Western imperialism was ever any more humane than the imperialism of Germany or Japan or China, it's only because our societies keep us willfully and blissfully ignorant of our own histories while emphasizing the crimes of our rivals.

There are always bad people, but the scope of what the Germans and the Japanese did was part of the plan, not just some rogue savages.

 

[Antiwar]

~30:35

Mitch: Russia would become ... would it be appropriate to call Russia an ally to anti-colonial efforts in Asia?

Moon-Ho: Oh yeah. ... Communism took a very public vocal stand against colonialism and racism / white supremacy..

 

[Tigerace117]

~30:35

Mitch: Russia would become ... would it be appropriate to call Russia an ally to anti-colonial efforts in Asia?

Moon-Ho: Oh yeah. ... Communism took a very public vocal stand against colonialism and racism.

And yet African students in the USSR were appalled at the racism they encountered there.

The Soviets were okay with anti colonialism…. As long as the colonials stayed far, far away.

On the other hand, that still put them several steps up on the West.

 

[trixare4kids]

What should the US have done when it was attacked by Japan and declared war on by Germany?

Should we have immediately surrender so as to not be militarists?

Second time you've asked the above questions. Did he answer yet?

 

[multivita-man]

You do realize that the colonial subjects of those western nations, when faced with the choice, wound up overwhelmingly siding with the Allies against the Japanese….. right?

Considering that they understand Japan's desire to maintain dominion over them, what choice did they have? I mean, there were people in Iraq who welcomed us as liberators for toppling Saddam's regime. Once we toppled the regime? "Uh, okay, great, now GTFO, yankee."

There’s no equivalence here. European colonialism was bad, but there was no equivalence to Unit 731,

Yes Unit 731 was atrocious. So was firebombing Tokyo, Osaka, and Nagoya. So were the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Again, war is war and the past is the past - I'm not litigating whether our atrocities were worse. I don't see the point. But it's misguided to suggest imperial Japan was uniquely bad - they weren't.

 

[jnug]

I absolutely disagree with this statement. In 1868 - just 70 years earlier - the Emperor didn't even really rule Japan; it was governed mostly by landowners (daimyo), who were effectively governed by a chief feudal lord (warlord?) called a shogun. Yes, there was the emperor, but for about 800-900 years before Japan's modernization in the late 1800s, it was really the warlords who held most of the real power in Japan.



Ironically, it was Americans who introduced Japan to modern colonialism and imperialism, and it's imperialism that motivated Japan to conquest. That is not to say that Japan never attempted conquest. The Western Japanese warlord Hideyoshi attempted to take over Korea in 1592. They struggled to subdue the Koreans and at one point sought Chinese help to finally conquer Korea. China refused knowing that they could end up fighting Japan. Frustrated, Hideyoshi left but not before burning Seoul to the ground, and to this day, you can visit historical site after site and read signs about how culturally important buildings were burned to the ground by the Japanese. In fairness, it was the Western Japanese under Hideyoshi - modern day Japan as now know it came to be in or around the year 1600 under Tokugawa Ieyasu. The capital finally moved from Kyoto to 'Edo' (now Tokyo).

Japan was quite committed to its Monarchy for a long long time. It is only symbolic now.

You can make the case that the Japanese Monarchy at the time of the 1930's was nothing more than a rational for Imperialism. "We have a Monarch that we cannot even gaze upon. Hence since he is so great that we cannot even gaze upon him, we must conquer in his name." I will buy that. However it does not change the point. Whether a Monarch is actually leading his country or providing a convenient front for the imperialistic intentions of others it amounts to the same thing.....Monarchy at scale as a vehicle for conquest. It just about demands conquest when it scales up to where the Japanese Monarchy was, where the great European Monarchies were in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries etc etc etc.

 

[braindrain]

It's not as simple as you make it seem. I'm not defending Japanese imperialism - it was imperialism after all. But it's doubtful that it was any worse than Western imperialism. Are there examples of brutality? Absolutely - lots of them. But the same is true of Western colonialism.

You just proved you really don’t know much about the topic at hand.

 

[Antiwar]

~37:30 - 41:00

Mitch: American still often don't understand why Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

Moon-Ho: [You'll have to listen for yourself] ... 39:10- The Japanese are the majority of the plantation labor force. When they begin to go out on strike ...

 

[braindrain]

~37:30 - 41:00

Mitch: American still often don't understand why Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

Moon-Ho: [You'll have to listen for yourself] ... 39:10- The Japanese are the majority of the plantation labor force. When they begin to go out on strike ...

Oh look. Another poster who knows absolutely nothing about WW2 but has a definite opinion about it. Why am I not surprised.