Morer Questions For The Atheist [W:839]

[tosca1]

Agnostic isn't a middle ground between theism and atheism, it exists on an entirely different line. (A)theism relates to belief while (a)gnosticism relates to knowledge. Agnostic is generally about it not being possible to know or prove whether any gods exist or not.

Therefore, it's a middle ground....or you'd say, it's the "fence." Agnostics holds the position of not wanting to make a commitment to either side, because there's no definitive proof either way!

A personal can be an agnostic atheist (and I'd argue most are, including myself) and it's also technically possible to be an agnostic theist, believing in a god on the basis of faith yet acknowledging their existence can't be proven.

Different people apply different definitions to the word atheist, often for specific purposes. I guess the key question is whether you believe a person could be neither atheist nor theist (remembering that is not agnostic). The argument against that is that theist means someone who believes in a god or gods and so anyone who doesn't fit that definition, regardless of their certainly or specific details, is an atheist by definition.

One benefit of that idea at least is that it makes clear how diverse and unconnected all the "non-theists" in the world are and how flawed lumping all atheists together and presuming a single mind-set of them is.

That's the relativistic definition. Atheists define themselves any way they want to, to suit their position!

When you're faced with the evidence(s) that points more to the possibility of God - that relativistic reply is more of a "face-saving" reply since sticking to atheistic rebuttal of simply denying the existence of God in direct contradiction to science (which atheists rely upon), makes you look silly and irrational!

 

[WCH]

Ah, so you are familiar with the laws of quantum physics.

I'm familiar with the God particle also. Wonder why they call it that?

 

[WCH]

And of course many believers will stop believing. It works both ways.

It has been foretold there would be a great falling away before the end-times. I see it happening today.

 

[Dragonfly]

It has been foretold there would be a great falling away before the end-times. I see it happening today.

Dude...people have been predicting the "end of times" for how many thousands of years????

When all is said and done, humans are getting along better now than they have for centuries.

If anything, life in general is improving for everyone.

 

[zyzygy]

I'm familiar with the God particle also. Wonder why they call it that?

"The Man Who Coined 'The God Particle' Explains: It Was A Joke!"

The Man Who Coined 'The God Particle' Explains: It Was A Joke! : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[zyzygy]

It has been foretold there would be a great falling away before the end-times. I see it happening today.

The "End Times" is pure nonsense. The End Times have been approaching for centuries but never seem to arrive.
“The rapture was made up by someone in the 1800s, and the story caught on among some groups who still believe it today,” he told Charisma News. “The simple truth is that it is not biblical, nor was it ever the historic position of the Christian church.”
Is the Rapture Biblical


(very amusing site)

 

[OrphanSlug]

It has been foretold there would be a great falling away before the end-times. I see it happening today.

Not you too, please don't. We have had too many examples of people turning prophecy into self fulfilling prophecy by continually looking for the signs. Don't jump into that crowd that continues to call out warning signs just as many others have only to find we are still here.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Although the literal definition of “atheist” is “a person who believes that God does not exist,” according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, 14% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit.



5 facts about atheists | Pew Research Center



By all definition, you are an agnostic, unless you believe that God does not exist.

By one part of one definition. This has been painstakingly set out for you before, yet you persist with the above misrepresentation.

 

[zyzygy]

##1914: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1915: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1918: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1920: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1925: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1941: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10]
##1975: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[10][11]
##mid-1970s: David Wilkerson: Worldwide economic depression.[12]
##1977: William Branham: Destruction of the U.S., termination of all governments into a world government, Second Coming.[13]
##1977: Pyramidologist Adam Rutherford: Beginning of the Millennium.[14]
##1978: Jim Jones took his cult with him.
##1979-1980: John Todd: Installation of a world government ruled by the Illuminati, with Jimmy Carter as the anti-Christ.
##1980: Pat Robertson: "A year of sorrow and bloodshed that will have no end soon, for the world is being torn apart, and my[15] kingdom shall rise from the ruins of it."
##1981: Hal Lindsey: Pre-tribulational rapture.
##1982: Pat Robertson: Great Tribulation.
##1982: R.E. McMaster: World War III and/or economic depression, based on cyclical theory.[16]
##1985: Pat Robertson: Worldwide economic collapse.
##1988: Hal Lindsey: Second Coming.
##1988: Edgar Whisenant: Second Coming.[17]
##1988: Colin Deal: Second Coming.[18]
##1989: Edgar Whisenant: Second Coming.[19]
##1990: Elizabeth Clare Prophet: Global thermonuclear war.
##1991: Louis Farrakhan: The looming Gulf War would be the "War of Armageddon which is the final war."
##1992: Rollen Stewart: Second Coming.
##1992: Mission for the Coming Days: Second Coming.[20]
##1994: Harold Camping: Second Coming.[21]
##1994: Some Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[22]
##1997: Heaven's Gate: Earth changes and a UFO abduction coinciding with the Hale-Bopp comet. Mass suicide in the hopes of hitching a ride on said UFOs.
##1997: Jehovah's Witnesses: Armageddon.[11]
##1998: The Church of the SubGenius: the Rupture. Every year on July 5th, they meet and party in reverence, certain that it will happen this year. (Recent writings have inverted the year to "8661.")
##1999-2000: David Wilkerson: Worldwide economic depression.[23]
##2000: Y2K: Collapse of civilisation.

List of predictions of the end of the world - RationalWiki


And that's just for the twentieth century. Spare us the End Times nonsense, please.

 

[tosca1]

I can't see how you would be confused. An atheist is, quite simply, one who does not have a belief in a god or gods.
"A"= not, "theist" = belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Put them together and you get not having a belief in a god or gods. isn't English wonderful!

Yes, English is indeed wonderful, however, your translation is faulty. You omitted a crucial word.


A"= not, "theist" = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Put them together and you should get not having a belief in the EXISTENCE a god or gods.

 

[zyzygy]

Dude...people have been predicting the "end of times" for how many thousands of years????

When all is said and done, humans are getting along better now than they have for centuries.

If anything, life in general is improving for everyone.

Two world wars, the Black Death, and mass extinctions cannot compare with the terrible End Times that we are all suffering through today.

 

[zyzygy]

Yes, English is indeed wonderful, however, your translation is faulty. You omitted a crucial word.


A"= not, "theist" = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Put them together and you should get not having a belief in the EXISTENCE a god or gods.

How you can you believe in a god without believing that said god exists? Stop the semantic nitpicking and address our points please.

 

[tosca1]

Actually, there are a whole LOT of other options. You may believe in one god, multiple gods, no gods, natural gods, unnatural gods, and each of these could be different. You have your own subjective picture of what you think god is or isn't.

See what I mean by relativism? And utter confusion? ALL OPTIONS ARE ON YOUR TABLE! :lol:



If you do believe in the existence of even a single god - you're no longer an atheist!

 

[Redress]

Yes, English is indeed wonderful, however, your translation is faulty. You omitted a crucial word.


A"= not, "theist" = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Put them together and you should get not having a belief in the EXISTENCE a god or gods.

The end effect is exactly the same. Not having a belief is NOT the same as believing in the nonexistance of something.

 

[WCH]

Not you too, please don't. We have had too many examples of people turning prophecy into self fulfilling prophecy by continually looking for the signs. Don't jump into that crowd that continues to call out warning signs just as many others have only to find we are still here.

Hey, I'm looking forward to the return of Christ.

But when I hear about how many people stop believing or have left the church, that is my reply.

 

[tosca1]

To point out that there are differences of opinion among "atheists" is no more shocking than to point out differences in opinion among Catholics or Jews about "spiritual" (moral?) matters.

But Catholics and Jews are both theists! That's a poor analogy.


You claim to be an a-theist

- and yet you believe in the existence of God or a god - what's wrong with that picture?

 

[Manc Skipper]

"The Man Who Coined 'The God Particle' Explains: It Was A Joke!"

The Man Who Coined 'The God Particle' Explains: It Was A Joke! : The Two-Way : NPR

It's similar to the "Big Bang". Though that was initially a derogatory comment by the backer of a different theory, ("steady state") which was threatened and eventually overtaken by "Big Bang" The insult was taken up by the winning theorists to rub it in.

 

[tosca1]

FFS, how many times do we have to go through this? No matter how many clever internet videos you find you and they do not get to change the definition of these words as some ploy in dealing with your opposition. For the last time...

Theism - belief in the existence of a God or gods.
Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnosticism - a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God or gods.

Let me just correct your definition of agnosticism.


Agnosticism..... is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable.

Big difference.

 

[zyzygy]

If you do believe in the existence of even a single god - you're no longer an atheist!

Thank you for pointing out the blindingly obvious.

 

[tosca1]

 

[tosca1]

 

[zyzygy]

Reasonable faith? An oxymoron, surely?

 

[zyzygy]

The end effect is exactly the same. Not having a belief is NOT the same as believing in the nonexistance of something.

Follwing his logic it is possible to believe in a god and not believe in the existence of the god at one and the same time.

 

[tosca1]

The end effect is exactly the same. Not having a belief is NOT the same as believing in the nonexistance of something.

Analyze the definitions of both. It says it the way I pointed it out.

Furthermore:

The word atheism comes from the negative a which means ‘no,’ and theos which means ‘god.’ Hence, atheism in the most basic terms means ‘no god.’


I've encountered many atheists who claim that atheism is not a belief system while others say it is. Since there is no official atheist organization, nailing down which description of atheism to use can be difficult. Nevertheless, the following are some definitions offered by atheists. Whichever definition you accept, atheism denies God.

What is atheism? | Define atheism | Explain what atheism is.

 

[marduc]

Yes, English is indeed wonderful, however, your translation is faulty. You omitted a crucial word.


A"= not, "theist" = belief in the existence of a god or gods.

Put them together and you should get not having a belief in the EXISTENCE a god or gods.

Let me just correct your definition of agnosticism.


Agnosticism..... is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable.

Big difference.

And look at that. Put them both together and you have someone who thinks the truth value of this god claim is unknown or unknowable, and as such does not have a belief in the existence of a god or gods. The agnostic athiest - who you seem to insist does not exist in your arguments.

If the truth value is thought to be unknown or unknowable then for the same reasons we do not believe god exists we cannot make a positive assertion that a god does not. Your threads fail.

And as a side not please stop trying to tell us what our beliefs, claims, assertions or positions are, and stop trying to insist that William Craig (or anyone else other than ourselves) is in a position to dictate this for us either.