More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of war

[Just Me 2]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

I am sorry to hear that. It does not mean that everyone in your shoes feels the same way.

No you're right it doesn't and I apologize for "YELLING" like that, I really try to stay civil when debating. Again I apologize.

 

[Just Me 2]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

I'm sorry about your loss, Just Me 2, and your personal loss makes it all the more important for you to know that Bush DID lie:


On 60 Minutes, Tyler Drumheller, the former chief of the CIA’s Europe division, revealed that in the fall of 2002, President Bush, Vice President Cheney, then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and others were told by CIA Director George Tenet that Iraq’s foreign minister — who agreed to act as a spy for the United States — had reported that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction program.


TRANSCRIPT

BRADLEY: According to Drumheller, CIA Director George Tenet delivered the news about the Iraqi foreign minister at a high level meeting at the White House.

DRUMHELLER: The President, the Vice President, Dr. Rice…

BRADLEY: And at that meeting…?

DRUMHELLER: They were enthusiastic because they said they were excited that we had a high-level penetration of Iraqis.

BRADLEY: And what did this high level source tell you?

DRUMHELLER: He told us that they had no active weapons of mass destruction program.

BRADLEY: So, in the fall of 2002, before going to war, we had it on good authority from a source within Saddam’s inner circle that he didn’t have an active program for weapons of mass destruction?

DRUMHELLER: Yes.

BRADLEY: There’s no doubt in your mind about that?

DRUMHELLER: No doubt in my mind at all.

BRADLEY: It directly contradicts, though, what the President and his staff were telling us.

DRUMHELLER: The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.

Think Progress » 60 Minutes: CIA Official Reveals Bush, Cheney, Rice Were Personally Told Iraq Had No WMD in Fall 2002

Bare with me this is going to be long:


I have read this but I have also done very extensive reading about what lead up to the war. Including the Duelfer Report.

We were not the only country to believe that he had WMD's and Bush went off of the intelligence he received from those countries, so if he lied then they did also. I simply do not believe that he pulled this intelligence out his butt. I do think he was GIVEN false information not MADE UP false information. There is a difference.

According to the Duelfer report SH didn't have WMD's but was well on his way to starting up the programs again. He had purchased delivery systems from Russia which was a violation of the sanctions and many other things, here are a few quote from the report. I think the issue comes down to whether you would have wanted to wait until he HAD the WMD's to go in or BEFORE he had them. I would chose before any day of the week. What many don't admit to is that SH WAS going to and had begun to rebuild his WMD's. That can't be denied. So again fight before, fight after?

From the Duelfer Report:

Another element of this strategy involved circumventing UN sanctions and the OFF program by means of “Protocols” or government-to-government economic trade agreements. Protocols allowed Saddam to generate a large amount of revenue outside the purview of the UN. The successful implementation of the Protocols, continued oil smuggling efforts, and the manipulation of UN OFF contracts emboldened Saddam to pursue his military reconstitution efforts starting in 1997 and peaking in 2001. These efforts covered conventional arms, dual-use goods acquisition, and some WMD-related programs.

He was using the money from the "Oil for Food" to rebuild his WMD's.

Again from the Duelfer report:

Iraq under Saddam successfully devised various methods to acquire and import items prohibited under UN sanctions. Numerous Iraqi and foreign trade intermediaries disguised illicit items, hid the identity of the end
user, and/or changed the final destination of the commodity to get it to the region. For a cut of the profits, these trade intermediaries moved, and in many cases smuggled, the prohibited items through land, sea, and air
entry points along the Iraqi border.

Saddam was NOT repeat NOT abiding by the UN Sections again the Duelfer report:

Companies in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, UAE, and Yemen assisted Saddam with the acquisition of prohibited items through deceptive trade practices. In the case of Syria and Yemen, this included support from agencies or personnel within the government itself.
Numerous ministries in Saddam’s Regime facilitated the smuggling of illicit goods through Iraq’s borders, ports, and airports. The Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) and the Military Industrialization Commission (MIC),
however, were directly responsible for skirting UN monitoring and importing prohibited items for Saddam.

Saddam WAS starting his WMD programs again even with the UN inspectors there:

Duelfer Report:

From 1999 until he was deposed in April 2003, Saddam’s conventional weapons and WMD-related procurement programs steadily grew in scale, variety, and efficiency. Saddam invited UNMOVIC and IAEA back into Iraq in September 2002, in the face of growing international pressure, calculating that a surge in cooperation might have brought sanctions to an end.

More about the programs Saddam had under way before the war, again things he was NOT suppose to:

Duelfer Report:

ISG uncovered Iraqi plans or designs for three long-range ballistic missiles with ranges from 400 to 1,000 km and for a 1,000-km-range cruise missile, although none of these systems progressed to production and
only one reportedly passed the design phase. ISG assesses that these plans demonstrate Saddam’s continuing desire—up to the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)—for a long-range delivery capability.

Support what I said about SH telling Iran and his own people that he would continue his WMD desires:

Duelfer Report:

Nevertheless, after 1991, Saddam did express his intent to retain the intellectual capital developed during the Iraqi Nuclear Program. Senior Iraqis—several of them from the Regime’s inner circle—told ISG they assumed Saddam would restart a nuclear program once UN sanctions ended.

These are just a few of the statements in the report. Saddam was playing both sides against the middle. HE would tell the inspectors he had given up the WMD programs but was just waiting for the sanctions to be lifted and had continued creating the delivery systems and purchasing the materials to create them once the inspectors left. In my opinion I would have rather have fought him BEFORE he created them again then after.

Here is the link to the entire report:

Duelfer (CIA) Report on Iraq WMD



Whew! ok need some coffee now. :lol:

 

[aquapub]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Are you actually trying to tie 9-11 to the Iraq War?

Are you actually denying that 9/11 made it urgent and critical that we remove genocidal terror-sponsors with a hard-on for WMD, after 15 years of failed diplomacy?

:lol:

Lash out at me for learning from history all you want. History will file you people along with those who said the phone would never be anything more than a kid's toy.

 

[aquapub]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Here you go...watch the Bastard Bush try to defend his failures and also admit what Aquapub cannot admit...that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11!

I never said Iraq caused 9/11.

Germany didn't cause Pearl Harbor either, but Pearl Harbor justified doing something about Germany. Likewise, 9/11 justified removing notorious terror-sponsors who pursue WMD, after 15 years of failed diplomacy.

 

[aquapub]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

All the more reason to start withdrawing our troops sooner than later, this war is done with, over and out!

Liberals:

-retreated from Muslim terrorists in Somalia.

-responded to the resulting eight years of terrorist attacks on the troops they claim to support so much with rhetoric and arrest warrants.

-appeased North Korea while they went nuclear.

-made it illegal for the FBI, CIA, and local police to communicate about terrorist threats.


Call me a skeptic, but I think I'll take my strategic advise on fighting terrorism from people who's policies occasionally do something other than catastrophically backfire.

:mrgreen:

Retreating from the central battlefield in the War on Terror and handing Iraq over to terrorists just to appease visionless left-wing cowards would just make us a part of their persistent failure to consider the consequences of doing what's easy in the short term.

 

[KidRocks]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Yeah and we lose the war in Iraq............

We? Watcha mean we? It is now up to the Iraqi's to win or lose, whatever that entails.

We (American troops) accomplished our mission, we removed Saddam from any position of power or authority that he held over his people, we discovered that Saddam had no WMD's, whether real, actual, or imaginary. We created the Iraqi Interim Government until the elected Iraqi Transitional Government took over.

We've equiped and trained the Iraqi army and police force and our job is finished as far as I can see.

The chaos that now ensues in Iraq is their own family squabbles, we need not participate nor sacrifice any more of our troops lives. We need to let the Iraqi authorities know that we will leave within 2 years, no if's, and's or buts about it!

Got it?

I knew you would!

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

We? Watcha mean we? It is now up to the Iraqi's to win or lose, whatever that entails.

We (American troops) accomplished our mission, we removed Saddam from any position of power or authority that he held over his people, we discovered that Saddam had no WMD's, whether real, actual, or imaginary. We created the Iraqi Interim Government until the elected Iraqi Transitional Government took over.

We've equiped and trained the Iraqi army and police force and our job is finished as far as I can see.

The chaos that now ensues in Iraq is their own family squabbles, we need not participate nor sacrifice any more of our troops lives. We need to let the Iraqi authorities know that we will leave within 2 years, no if's, and's or buts about it!

Got it?

I knew you would!

We means the USA.........Since you call yourself you probably don't know how many Vietnamese and Cambodians died because we pulled out prematurely or you probably don't care.:roll: ......

 

[KidRocks]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

We means the USA.........Since you call yourself you probably don't know how many Vietnamese and Cambodians died because we pulled out prematurely or you probably don't care.:roll: ......

Nope, all I really cared for was our troops health and well being. You worry about the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Iraqi's for now as for me, I want our troops home safe and sound.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

We were not the only country to believe that he had WMD's and Bush went off of the intelligence he received from those countries, so if he lied then they did also.

That's a common talking point but it just isn't true. If other countries had believed Saddam was a threat, they would have joined the coalition, but the only country providing significant support to the war effort was the UK. Other countries didn't spy on Iraq, so they didn't have their own intelligence on which to base an opinion.

I do think he was GIVEN false information not MADE UP false information.

When the CIA couldn't provide justification needed for a war with Iraq, the Office of Special Plans was created: Global Exchange : The Lie Factory

I think the issue comes down to whether you would have wanted to wait until he HAD the WMD's to go in or BEFORE he had them. I would chose before any day of the week.

So, you actually think the Iraq war--killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and children, and over 3,000 Americans killed, many more seriously wounded, at a cost of untold billions--was justified because Saddam might someday have acquired WMD? Sorry, but I don't understand how anyone could believe that.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

That's a common talking point but it just isn't true. If other countries had believed Saddam was a threat, they would have joined the coalition, but the only country providing significant support to the war effort was the UK. Other countries didn't spy on Iraq, so they didn't have their own intelligence on which to base an opinion.

This is a common talking point, but it just isnt true.
Might I remind you that both countries voted for USCR1441, and France voted for every UNSCR involving Iraq.

France and Germany both supported the intel with information from their own services.

Germany:
Asia Times

France and Germany were involved in oil deas with Iraq and were happy to go along with talking tough about Iraq -- but when it came to backing up their words with actions, they folded.

Sorry, but I don't understand how anyone could believe that.

Thats becaise you have chosen to NOT believe it, regardless what the reality of the situation might be.

Tell me: Did Clinton lie about Iraq when he went to war in decembe r1998?

 

[Just Me 2]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

[

quote=Chanda;485469]That's a common talking point but it just isn't true. If other countries had believed Saddam was a threat, they would have joined the coalition, but the only country providing significant support to the war effort was the UK. Other countries didn't spy on Iraq, so they didn't have their own intelligence on which to base an opinion.

Well they thought he was enough of a threat strap him with sanctions, of which he broke at every turn. Face it Saddam played the UN and he was NEVER going to abide by the resolutions. He used the Oil For Food money to buy other countries, and their help at the UN. It is all there in the report. He play them all BIG! He needed to be taken out. The US had justification to go to war based on the broken UN resolutions alone. And he DID have things he was not suppose to according to the report just because he had not put all the pieces together yet he still broke the sanctions.

When the CIA couldn't provide justification needed for a war with Iraq, the Office of Special Plans was created: Global Exchange : The Lie Factory

It is not the fault of Bush that the Intel was wrong. Perhaps if Clinton had not cut our intelligence budget in half it would have been better. My point being, if you are the president and you have what you believe to be very reliable sources telling to something that turns out to be false did you lie? NO! You got bad Intel nothing can be done about that. That does NOT make Bush a lier. Bush did not lie to anyone, the commission was given the same info that he was and they all agreed to go to war. You (the commission) can't back out of it now. It floors me that politicians that sat on the commission and heard all the same information that Bush did and agreed now say they Bush lied to them. NO he did not, he told them what he was told. That is very different then making crap up.
http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/iraq/1448.html

So, you actually think the Iraq war--killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men, women and children, and over 3,000 Americans killed, many more seriously wounded, at a cost of untold billions--was justified because Saddam might someday have acquired WMD? Sorry, but I don't understand how anyone could believe that.

Well yes! I would much rather fight him without WMD's. The FACT is that he WAS in the process of starting his WMD programs up again even with UN inspectors right there. As I said before I think we rushed into the war but I also believe it was an unavoidable war. It would have happen. I also which is solely my own speculation that Saddam either destroyed or shipped the WMD's that he had to Sierra before the invasion. Lord knows we gave him enough notice and time to get rid of them.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Goobieman, here is what your source, dated February, 2003 says:

What's galling is that German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and his minions have long known the facts, German intelligence services know them and have loads of information on what Saddam Hussein is hiding, and Schroeder nonetheless plays holier than thou to an easily manipulated, pacifist-inclined domestic audience.

The author of your article has been proven wrong. Saddam wasn't hiding WMD. The fact is, the Iraqi WMD declaration required by security council resolution 1441, and submitted by Iraq in December 2002, but flatly rejected by Bush and Blair as falsehoods, has now been proven accurate.

Tell me: Did Clinton lie about Iraq when he went to war in decembe r1998?

It was after Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, that Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen and Gen. Henry H. Shelton (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) announced the action had been successful in "degrad[ing] Saddam Hussein's ability to deliver chemical, biological and nuclear weapons."

 

[Goobieman]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

The author of your article has been proven wrong.

The point that you missed here is that, prior to the invasion, and contrary to your claims, German intel independently agreed with us.

Saddam wasn't hiding WMD. The fact is, the Iraqi WMD declaration required by security council resolution 1441, and submitted by Iraq in December 2002, but flatly rejected by Bush and Blair as falsehoods, has now been proven accurate.

The point that you missed here is that, prior to the invasion, and contrary to your claims, German intel independently agreed with us.

It was after Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, that Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen and Gen. Henry H. Shelton (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) announced the action had been successful in "degrad[ing] Saddam Hussein's ability to deliver chemical, biological and nuclear weapons."

That's right. But "degrading" is not the same as "destorying" or "eliminating", and no one ever came close to claiming that we elimintated his NBC assets. You blow up one NBC weapon facility or delivery platform and you "degrade" their capability.

So, the question begs:
What happened to what we did not destory in 1998?
How do you know?

 

[aquapub]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Goobieman, here is what your source, dated February, 2003 says:



The author of your article has been proven wrong. Saddam wasn't hiding WMD. The fact is, the Iraqi WMD declaration required by security council resolution 1441, and submitted by Iraq in December 2002, but flatly rejected by Bush and Blair as falsehoods, has now been proven accurate.



It was after Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, that Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen and Gen. Henry H. Shelton (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff) announced the action had been successful in "degrad[ing] Saddam Hussein's ability to deliver chemical, biological and nuclear weapons."

WMD were found in Iraq.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

The point that you missed here is that, prior to the invasion, and contrary to your claims, German intel independently agreed with us.

BERLIN – German intelligence officials responsible for one of the most important informants on Saddam Hussein's suspected weapons of mass destruction say the Bush administration and the CIA repeatedly exaggerated his claims during the run-up to the Iraq war.

SR.com: German intelligence says U.S. used bad data to justify Iraq war

no one ever came close to claiming that we elimintated his NBC assets.

Except for Colin Powell and Condi Rice in 2001 (video): The Memory Hole > 2001: Powell & Rice Declare Iraq Has No WMD and Is Not a Threat

What happened to what we did not destory in 1998?
How do you know?

How do you know there was anything left after that?

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

WMD were found in Iraq.

So Bush lied when he said there were no WMD in Iraq?

 

[Just Me 2]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

So Bush lied when he said there were no WMD in Iraq?

Bahahahahaha I know we are on opposite sides but that one made me chuckle (in a good way). :lol: I think what he meant is that there was not a large stock pile of them but yes they were found as well as plans and delivery systems.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Bahahahahaha I know we are on opposite sides but that one made me chuckle (in a good way). :lol: I think what he meant is that there was not a large stock pile of them but yes they were found as well as plans and delivery systems.

I'm glad I made you chuckle, but you should really stop using Fox as a news source. WMD that are degraded and unusable are, by definition, not WMD. The 'delivery systems' found were model airplane-looking drones made of balsa wood and duct tape. They were declared by Iraq, not hidden, and their intended use was for reconnaissance. Duelfer's claim that Iraq intended to pursue WMD was not documented and admittedly speculation only.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

SR.com: German intelligence says U.S. used bad data to justify Iraq war

Looks like two sources conflict.
the important thing, howeverm is what the leaders publicly said. The leadership of the German government agreed with Bush's assessment, right up to the point where it came time to actually do something about it.

How do you know there was anything left after that?

We knew stuff was there in 1998.
Unless you can prove that it was destroyed or dismantled, the only rational argument is that its still there. Saddam was tp prove tha it was destroyed or dismantled, and did not. Thus, the war.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

We knew stuff was there in 1998.

How do we know that?

 

[Just Me 2]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

I'm glad I made you chuckle, but you should really stop using Fox as a news source. WMD that are degraded and unusable are, by definition, not WMD. The 'delivery systems' found were model airplane-looking drones made of balsa wood and duct tape. They were declared by Iraq, not hidden, and their intended use was for reconnaissance. Duelfer's claim that Iraq intended to pursue WMD was not documented and admittedly speculation only.

Sweetie I'm not using Fox I'm using the Duelfer Report. Nope wrong it says that he HAD purchased delivery system from Russia there were documents found to that fact.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

How do we know that?

I'm assuming that Bill Clinton told the truth in 1998 when he went to war in Iraq.

Are you saying he lied?

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

I'm assuming that Bill Clinton told the truth in 1998 when he went to war in Iraq. Are you saying he lied?

I don't know if he lied, or if he implied Saddam Hussein had WMD, but his stated main reason for the Desert Fox operation was to force Saddam Hussein to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM.

The Duelfer report concluded that Iraq's WMD stockpiles had been destroyed in 1991, and WMD programs and facilities dismantled by 1996.

 

[Chanda]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

Sweetie I'm not using Fox I'm using the Duelfer Report. Nope wrong it says that he HAD purchased delivery system from Russia there were documents found to that fact.

Now you're saying documents were found, but your previous post said,

what he meant is that there was not a large stock pile of them but yes they were found as well as plans and delivery systems.

that delivery systems were found.

As I understand the Duelfer report, it states that Iraq had purchased components of delivery systems from Russia and other countries, but no actual delivery systems were found that significantly exceeded UN restrictions.

 

[Goobieman]

Re: More U.S. troops died in Iraq over past four months than in any similar period of

I don't know if he lied, or if he implied Saddam Hussein had WMD, but his stated main reason for the Desert Fox operation was to force Saddam Hussein to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM.

He stated, in plain, obvious and incontrovertable terms, that Saddam had WMDs and WMD programns, and because Iraq had not complied with the terms of various UN resolutions in terms of both destroying these things and allowing inspectors in, he was ordering air and missile strikes.

The Duelfer report concluded that Iraq's WMD stockpiles had been destroyed in 1991, and WMD programs and facilities dismantled by 1996.

So -- Bill Clinton lied. Right?