Mohammed now most popular boys' name in England

[DrunkenAsparagus]

We can’t decide for others which of their fears are unreasonable.

Being afraid of radioactive bears tearing down you wall is stupid, so is fearing Islam in general.

Fearing extremism in this day and age doesn’t seem to be that irrational to me though.

You're talking past my points. There is a difference between, "We should combat Terrorism," and, "Islam in general is a totalitarian ideology that sets out to destroy the West."

So?

So we shouldn't be running around with our hands in the air whenever public schools offer halal food.

If you would you wouldn’t have made that statement about jews and the NT. The individual believer can’t be held responsible for acts of other members of his faith group, but we can hold the faith accountable, especially when its scripture leads to extreme interpretations.

Xenophobia against Islam? I would agree with you if you said something like “discriminating muslims doesn’t help, doesn’t solve anything”. The problem is I want to discuss the tenants of Islam, preferably with muslims, that becomes a lot harder when every bit of criticism is met with hostility.

Because, really the Quran is no worse than the vast majority of religious texts. The problem is that a group of idiots have decided to make a big deal about it.

 

[Djoop]

Being afraid of radioactive bears tearing down you wall is stupid, so is fearing Islam in general.

Creative, but I would say that's a stupid comparison. Again, a lot of fears are irrational, like being afraid of going to hell. Hitchens once said that "only religion can make good people commit evil", in that sense you only need a history book to develop a healthy fear for religion .. in general.

You're talking past my points. There is a difference between, "We should combat Terrorism," and, "Islam in general is a totalitarian ideology that sets out to destroy the West."

There is, unfortunately the latter isn't as irrational as you may think. RoP could quote a variety of muslim extremists who spoke about colonizing or conquering europe by immigration and birth rate. I also think its an exaggeration, I don't believe that muslims are conspiring against us, but Islam certainly has a few totalitarian qualities, if only because it's a monotheistic religion.

So we shouldn't be running around with our hands in the air whenever public schools offer halal food.

No, we shouldn't make baseless assertions about most muslims. I'm sure you mean well but I don't think you countered my initial argument. Literalism goes beyond following the holy book to the letter, it means you can't change anything, you're not allowed to contest any of it, let stand follow your own interpretations. We can find literalism in all of the abrahamic religions but there are differences between them in terms of what they believe.
To respond to your example; the great thing about being a libertarian is that the rules are few and simple. You can eat all the halal food you want as long as you don't shove it down my throat.

Because, really the Quran is no worse than the vast majority of religious texts. The problem is that a group of idiots have decided to make a big deal about it.

Two bads don't make a good. The vast majority of religious texts are filled with 1000+ year old morals, nowadays we find things like slavery and genocide immoral. It only becomes a problem when a group of idiots write a letter to God and fly a few thousand people to heaven. Unfortunately, that isn't as unlikely as a radioactive bear, even if you were camping in the forrests of Tsjernobyl.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Creative, but I would say that's a stupid comparison. Again, a lot of fears are irrational, like being afraid of going to hell. Hitchens once said that "only religion can make good people commit evil", in that sense you only need a history book to develop a healthy fear for religion .. in general.

I don't see islamophobia as much more rational. It's still a silly fear, and I'm going to attack it as long as I see it as silly.

There is, unfortunately the latter isn't as irrational as you may think. RoP could quote a variety of muslim extremists who spoke about colonizing or conquering europe by immigration and birth rate. I also think its an exaggeration, I don't believe that muslims are conspiring against us, but Islam certainly has a few totalitarian qualities, if only because it's a monotheistic religion.

I know about these extremists, and while they can carry out attacks, Muslims will probably not become the majority anytime soon even with demographic shifts, and even then, the extremists probably won't take over.

No, we shouldn't make baseless assertions about most muslims. I'm sure you mean well but I don't think you countered my initial argument. Literalism goes beyond following the holy book to the letter, it means you can't change anything, you're not allowed to contest any of it, let stand follow your own interpretations. We can find literalism in all of the abrahamic religions but there are differences between them in terms of what they believe.

And reletively few Muslims do this, RoP makes it sound like Islam is dangerous in general.

To respond to your example; the great thing about being a libertarian is that the rules are few and simple. You can eat all the halal food you want as long as you don't shove it down my throat.

And to my knowledge, that's really all that these people RoP keeps denouncing as leftists are doing, accommodating, but not forcing much down people's throats. Do they go to far in some cases, yeah, but it's not like they're welcoming i the Taliban.

Two bads don't make a good. The vast majority of religious texts are filled with 1000+ year old morals, nowadays we find things like slavery and genocide immoral. It only becomes a problem when a group of idiots write a letter to God and fly a few thousand people to heaven. Unfortunately, that isn't as unlikely as a radioactive bear, even if you were camping in the forrests of Tsjernobyl.

I know; I'm just pointing out the double standard that so many have.

 

[Djoop]

I don't see islamophobia as much more rational. It's still a silly fear, and I'm going to attack it as long as I see it as silly.

I also have my dislikes; like calling people names they have not chosen for themselves.

I know about these extremists, and while they can carry out attacks, Muslims will probably not become the majority anytime soon even with demographic shifts, and even then, ther extremists probablty wont take over.

I think you're right but I don't see why others have to agree with that, we can't predict the future.

And reletively few Muslims do this, RoP makes it sound like Islam is dangerous in general.

*sigh*

And to my knowledge, that's really all that these people RoP keeps denouncing as leftists are doing, accommodating, but not forcing much down people's throats. Do they go to far in some cases, yeah, but it's not like they're welcoming in the Taliban.

Politics is often about images and news headlines, in some of these subjects we find that we're only talking about image forming, which tend to differ from one person to the next.

I know; I'm just pointing out the double standard that so many have.

I'm just pointing at the weakness of that argument.

I'm disappointed I have not been able to convince you of my position but I'm ignorant enough to blame it entirely on your persona. Better luck next time.

 

[Paschendale]

Oh no! There are people around me that are different! Seriously, middle class people are middle class people, no matter their religion, skin color, or language. Extremists care about the supposed Muslim invasion of the west. Rational people don't give a crap and will continue to live in peace with other peaceful people.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

I also have my dislikes; like calling people names they have not chosen for themselves.

I haven't engaged in namecalling. I'm voicing my disagreement with another poster's responses.

I think you're right but I don't see why others have to agree with that, we can't predict the future.

I never said anything about others being forced to agree with me. This does not make them any more right. This is a discussion forum; if you disagree with someone, you say so. If you don't want people disagreeing with you don't say it here.

*sigh*

What? The vast majority of Muslims don't do it, unless you want to counter this, but RoP has called Islam a "not a religion, but a dangerous totalitarian ideology."

Politics is often about images and news headlines, in some of these subjects we find that we're only talking about image forming, which tend to differ from one person to the next.

Again, we're going back to the whole, I'm supposed to voice any disagreements I may have here.

I'm just pointing at the weakness of that argument.

Then how much different is the Quran from the OT in regards to violence?

I'm disappointed I have not been able to convince you of my position but I'm ignorant enough to blame it entirely on your persona. Better luck next time.

What? Yeah, I'm sorry that I didn't show you too.

 

[Grant]

It's interesting that this kind of information is actually newsworthy. It will be a good day when information such as this is not newsworthy. It will mean that religious polarization will no longer be a problem.

As much of the UK is either atheist or agnostic it doesn't seem religious polarization is a problem, given there is only one serious religion.

There clearly are political and social problems, however.

 

[Grant]

DrunkenAsparagus

Being afraid of radioactive bears tearing down you wall is stupid, so is fearing Islam in general.

It doesn't appear that the fear is against Islam in general but the changes, often negative, Islam is having on British culture and society.

There is a difference between, "We should combat Terrorism," and, "Islam in general is a totalitarian ideology that sets out to destroy the West."

But that''s just what many Muslims themselves are saying. Are they lying? Misinformed? What steps are being taken to be sure that British customs, laws and traditions are being maintained in order to prove those Muslims wrong?? Or are the British people being too accommodating to those Muslims who are putting pressure on Britain's traditional laws and values? That's the question being asked. This "Not all Muslims are terrorists" defense should have been put to rest long ago.

So we shouldn't be running around with our hands in the air whenever public schools offer halal food.

Just like not all Muslims are terrorists, not all people are running around with their hands in the air.

Because, really the Quran is no worse than the vast majority of religious texts. The problem is that a group of idiots have decided to make a big deal about it.

That's right. And this group of idiots are bombing buildings and public transport, denying young girls an education, spreading hatreds, murdering Gays, treating women like crap, and so on. That's why many in the democracies are concerned. And it is very strange that instead of confronting these problems we're still hearing those tired "not all Muslims are terrorists" cliches. That's why those Muslims who say they can take over the West, at least as far as Europe is concerned, just might be right.

 

[paris]

OK.

In other news, in France. First we have this guy:

who gets married with that gal:

...

And now I hear Madonna's new boyfriend is a Frenchie called Brahim?!

...

I sense a dangerous trend of unholy assimiliation here..

 

[Djoop]

I sense a dangerous trend of unholy assimiliation here..

Music to my ears.

 

[PeteEU]

OK.

In other news, in France. First we have this guy:

who gets married with that gal:

...

And now I hear Madonna's new boyfriend is a Frenchie called Brahim?!

...

I sense a dangerous trend of unholy assimiliation here..

I already hate him

 

[paris]

Music to my ears.

How long before their female partners get beat up and end up in burkas?

Madonna in a burka, that's something to fantasize about:darthgunny

 

[Djoop]

How long before their female partners get beat up and end up in burkas?

It doesn't have to happen often, but every time it happens they should be able to count on the government to enforce their rights. In politics this boils down to funding safe houses and combat the idea that women should hide their faces and withold their talents from society. I bet you'd support most of these measures.

Madonna in a burka, that's something to fantasize about:darthgunny

*shrudders*

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

It doesn't appear that the fear is against Islam in general but the changes, often negative, Islam is having on British culture and society.

What are these extreme changes? Why are they so negative?

But that''s just what many Muslims themselves are saying. Are they lying? Misinformed?

When did I say all Muslims were right?

What steps are being taken to be sure that British customs, laws and traditions are being maintained in order to prove those Muslims wrong?? Or are the British people being too accommodating to those Muslims who are putting pressure on Britain's traditional laws and values? That's the question being asked. This "Not all Muslims are terrorists" defense should have been put to rest long ago.

What's putting them in danger? You still have Parliament, the Queen, and fish and chips. Halal food, nonbinding religious courts, and the popularity of the name "Mohammed" won't change that.

Just like not all Muslims are terrorists, not all people are running around with their hands in the air.

I never said that, but some are.

That's right. And this group of idiots are bombing buildings and public transport, denying young girls an education, spreading hatreds, murdering Gays, treating women like crap, and so on. That's why many in the democracies are concerned. And it is very strange that instead of confronting these problems we're still hearing those tired "not all Muslims are terrorists" cliches. That's why those Muslims who say they can take over the West, at least as far as Europe is concerned, just might be right.

Grant, I don't know how many times I've stated that Islamic extremism is a problem in this thread. I have no problem with calling it out and facing it down. What I have a problem with is people like RoP acting like the world coming to an end, because his Britannia has some new Muslim influence. I'm as patriotic as the next guy, but some foreigners coming in doesn't mean the end to my culture.

 

[Grant]

OK.

In other news, in France. First we have this guy:

who gets married with that gal:

...

And now I hear Madonna's new boyfriend is a Frenchie called Brahim?!

...

I sense a dangerous trend of unholy assimiliation here..

Actually that's been going on for quite some time, but the dangers of Muslim women marrying Christians or (gasp!!) Jews, is great. They would probably lose their lives.

I doubt many care if a non-Muslim woman marries a Muslim man, apart from the possible problems outlined by many women regarding child custody, the permanence of their conversion to Islam, etc. It's really their own business.

We can look at these marriages with some indifference knowing the the democracies have a history of marriage within different faiths. Let's see what happens when Muslims take control of the social customs and whether those same attitudes might still apply.

That trend of "unholy assimilation" you think you see is simply not possible in most Muslim run countries. That's why we have to protect the democratic ideals.

 

[Grant]

DrunkenAsparagus

What are these extreme changes? Why are they so negative?

Perhaps you should read some of those links contributed on this very thread. But surely you must be aware of the 24 hour surveillance of the British people, 7/7, the failed attempts at terrorism, etc. I don't see why, 10 years after 9/11, that you can possibly remain that uninformed about what's going on in the world. I assume you're being deliberately silly here.

When did I say all Muslims were right?

Nowhere, as far as I know. But many Muslim leaders are saying they'll take over the western democracies. Are they right? Wrong? What's to stop them?

What's putting them in danger? You still have Parliament, the Queen, and fish and chips. Halal food, nonbinding religious courts, and the popularity of the name "Mohammed" won't change that.

Yes, you still have parliament and fish and chips. We all know that. We really, really do! But the question is how long will you have them? Forty years? Sixty? One hundred?

Grant, I don't know how many times I've stated that Islamic extremism is a problem in this thread. I have no problem with calling it out and facing it down. What I have a problem with is people like RoP acting like the world coming to an end, because his Britannia has some new Muslim influence. I'm as patriotic as the next guy, but some foreigners coming in doesn't mean the end to my culture.

But your world in Britain, the world the British have known for centuries and which has contributed so much to the world in the past, has come to an end and has gone forever. And no one is certain what will take its place. We do know that Britain is under attack, as are all of the democracies. How we respond to that threat will determine the future. Can we hang on to our laws and culture, and assimilate all people equally, or will he become two societies. Who will dominate?

And your culture is gone forever whether you know it or not. And if you ask anyone who lived in the 40's and 50's they'll tell you you the same thing.

You acknowledge Muslim 'influence' but how do you contain this Muslim influence? Do Jews, atheists, agnostics and Christians have the same influence? Whose influence is on the rise and whose is on the wane? That's the question that are justifiably being asked.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Perhaps you should read some of those links contributed on this very thread. But surely you must be aware of the 24 hour surveillance of the British people, 7/7, the failed attempts at terrorism, etc. I don't see why, 10 years after 9/11, that you can possibly remain that uninformed about what's going on in the world. I assume you're being deliberately silly here.

I've addressed this Grant. Read through the thread.

Nowhere, as far as I know. But many Muslim leaders are saying they'll take over the western democracies. Are they right? Wrong? What's to stop them?

I don't know, parliament, the electorate, the rule of law?

Yes, you still have parliament and fish and chips. We all know that. We really, really do! But the question is how long will you have them? Forty years? Sixty? One hundred?

By looking at America, I think you'll see that they aren't really in danger. Yeah, the immigrants through Ellis Island and current ones through Latin America changed our culture, but American culture really isn't all that different from what it was before.

But your world in Britain, the world the British have known for centuries and which has contributed so much to the world in the past, has come to an end and has gone forever. And no one is certain what will take its place. We do know that Britain is under attack, as are all of the democracies. How we respond to that threat will determine the future. Can we hang on to our laws and culture, and assimilate all people equally, or will he become two societies. Who will dominate?

And your culture is gone forever whether you know it or not. And if you ask anyone who lived in the 40's and 50's they'll tell you you the same thing.

You mean that culture, changes?! Of course it does. Cultures change all of the time. Or was your island never invaded by the Romans, Saxons, and Normans? British culture isn't static, but some more immigrants won't lead to public executions for non-burqa wearing women. It's just part of a progression.

You acknowledge Muslim 'influence' but how do you contain this Muslim influence? Do Jews, atheists, agnostics and Christians have the same influence? Whose influence is on the rise and whose is on the wane? That's the question that are justifiably being asked.

The question being asked is why is this such a big deal? Yes there are extremists, but generally British society as a whole won't be very much affected, and while the proportion of uslims will increase in the future, the chances of them becoming a majority are quite low. Maybe all these efforts to cast Muslims as the "other" will drive them away from greater Western society making more of them want to be apart from if not subvert.it.

 

[Grant]

DrunkenAsparagus

I've addressed this Grant. Read through the thread.

Yes, you said "Yeah, all those evil Muslims..."

Not all Muslims are evil, right? But some are. In fact enough are evil that we should be a little concerned about it. At a minimum we should not dismiss the possibility so casually anyway.

I don't know, parliament, the electorate, the rule of law?

All will change and are changing. Have you not noticed? The face of parliament is changing, the electorate is changing and the rule of now is now being applied differently than it once was, depending on which group you belong to.

By looking at America, I think you'll see that they aren't really in danger. Yeah, the immigrants through Ellis Island and current ones through Latin America changed our culture, but American culture really isn't all that different from what it was before.

That depends on where you lie in the United States.

You mean that culture, changes?! Of course it does. Cultures change all of the time. Or was your island never invaded by the Romans, Saxons, and Normans? British culture isn't static, but some more immigrants won't lead to public executions for non-burqa wearing women. It's just part of a progression.

The examples you provided were not necessarily peaceful. They were invasions. And while you may look back at these events quite casually it was not so agreeable to the victims. Now there is another invasion, according to Islamic leaders, and you appear equally indifferent. Progression implies progress, but that is not always the case.

The question being asked is why is this such a big deal?

It's a big deal because they will eventually dominate western Europe, and are well on their way in doing so today. Muslim leaders will tell you that their takeover is inevitable, and I tend to believe them. They are looking at the possible while the west can't quite believe what's happening. Your claim that it's not such a big deal is not uncommon, but in fact we are living in historical times. Democracy is not a sure thing.

Yes there are extremists, but generally British society as a whole won't be very much affected, and while the proportion of uslims will increase in the future, the chances of them becoming a majority are quite low.

Birthrates say otherwise and while most Muslims remain peaceful, when it comes down to the crunch they'll have to side with their fellow Muslims. Not all Germans were Nazis either, but Nazi followers simply believed more fervently and eventually took control, with the rest of the Germans following.

Maybe all these efforts to cast Muslims as the "other" will drive them away from greater Western society making more of them want to be apart from if not subvert.it.

More and more Muslims define themselves firstly as Muslims so, in fact, they are already 'the other'. We don't have to force them into that.

And why should Muslims assimilate into any western democracy? Are we that superior that everyone wants to live like us? Not according to their leaders. They feel we're decadent infidels and shun our way of life.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Yes, you said "Yeah, all those evil Muslims..."

Not all Muslims are evil, right? But some are. In fact enough are evil that we should be a little concerned about it. At a minimum we should not dismiss the possibility so casually anyway.

I'm getting really tired of this. If you read through the thread, you can see that I explicitly stated that I think Islamic extremism is a problem. If you cannot address this, I don't see the point of talking to you.

All will change and are changing. Have you not noticed? The face of parliament is changing,

I was watching question time on C-Span (God your executive-legislative meetings are way more awesome than our State of the Union) I saw about two MPs who weren't White.

the electorate is changing

How so?

and the rule of now is now being applied differently than it once was, depending on which group you belong to.

If you're talking about those Islamic courts, they are non-binding, non-governmental civil courts that are no different than the Jewish and Anglican ones that have been around in your country for years except that they use sharia over Jewish or Christian law.

That depends on where you lie in the United States.

Not really. In some areas you'll see Spanish signs alongside English ones. Apple pie and baseball are still popular there though.

The examples you provided were not necessarily peaceful. They were invasions. And while you may look back at these events quite casually it was not so agreeable to the victims. Now there is another invasion,

The point is that culture is not static. It changes.

according to some Islamic leaders who don't speak for most Muslims, and you appear equally indifferent. Progression implies progress, but that is not always the case.

Fixed it for you.

It's a big deal because they will eventually dominate western Europe, and are well on their way in doing so today. Muslim leaders will tell you that their takeover is inevitable, and I tend to believe them. They are looking at the possible while the west can't quite believe what's happening. Your claim that it's not such a big deal is not uncommon, but in fact we are living in historical times. Democracy is not a sure thing.

I don't get it Grant, are Muslims generally Islamists that threaten democracy or not?

Birthrates say otherwise and while most Muslims remain peaceful, when it comes down to the crunch

They still make up a whopping 4% of British population. Do you have any links to show that they may become a majority. The highest figure I've seen was 25% by 2100 and even that was dubious.

they'll have to side with their fellow Muslims. Not all Germans were Nazis either, but Nazi followers simply believed more fervently and eventually took control, with the rest of the Germans following.

Why would they have to side with them?

More and more Muslims define themselves firstly as Muslims so, in fact, they are already 'the other'. We don't have to force them into that.

Yeah a lot of people put God before earthly things. That doesn't mean that their god wants them to blow **** up.

And why should Muslims assimilate into any western democracy? Are we that superior that everyone wants to live like us? Not according to their leaders. They feel we're decadent infidels and shun our way of life.

I hate to go into the whole "broad generalizations are stupid," but uh, yeah.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

......some foreigners coming in doesn't mean the end to my culture.

Don't tell him and cranky old RoP, tell those feotid swines in authority:

The BBC's still 'hideously white' | Media | The Guardian

Bosses of British town halls are 'hideously white' | The-Latest.com

Margaret Hodge in 'too white' Proms row - mirror.co.uk

Mixed-race adoption: Branding families too white to adopt is cruel | Mail Online


BOOKS 'TOO WHITE': http://articles.sfgate.com/1998-03-14/news/17716344_1_book-list-nonwhite-authors-black-authors

POLICE DUMMY 'TOO WHITE': http://forums.liverpoolecho.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16053&start=0

SOCIAL WORKER SCUM CALL DECENT PEOPLE 'TOO WHITE' TO ADOPT: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1023286/Social-workers-said-middle-class-white-adopt.html

TOWN IN BRITAIN 'TOO WHITE' AND 'TOO BRITISH': http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-439284/The-town-branded-white-British.html

POLICE 'TOO WHITE': http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-74972.html

TOWNS 'TOO WHITE' LABELLED 'UNHEALTHY': http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article708407.ece




And that's not to mention schools piloting American-style 'bussing' schemes because those nasty whites have a habit of being in the majority in their own land. Plus the ridiculous smear of the ENTIRE Met Police, along with the ENTIRE white race, being labelled as 'institutionally racist' by liberal nutjobs will not be forgotten.

The infamous 'of course all white people are racist' article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment


And let's not forget this document, in which it's re-stated that demographic and culture-wrecking immigration was PLANNED to rub our noses in Diversity, to coin the Labour phrase: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/65404-lunatics-new-labour-state.html







Muslim converts 'not Islamic enough' for their adopted son to have a brother -Times Online , etc.



I get the picture at how verminous and disgusting the likes of me are by now. No wonder we don't deserve a country, right Left?!

I think any appropriate response to these Liberal nation-wrecker sickos would earn me a lifetime ban from DP! How DARE these people ruin our green and pleasant land!