Modern Monetary Theory: Explained via Jon Stewart

[OrphanSlug]

Do you know what a ponzi scheme is?

Yes

 

[Individual]

I'm pretty sure I've seen you give one reason why capitalism expanding is a good thing: Capitalism (supposedly) lifts people out of poverty.

Capitalism expanding can be both good and bad, lifting some out of poverty while moving others into poverty.

 

[Individual]

He's also forgetting that money itself is a function of the government. Without it capitalism consists of exchanging sheep skins and bundles of hemp.

Or gold and silver like before, not that I would recommend we return to that.
The ONE thing we need to recognize is that the USD continues to be backed, just not by gold/silver, but by every single thing that is marketable.

 

[Individual]

Money is actually a form of debt, its origins lie in issuing debts. Think about how money is created today. It is issued as a form of debt whether its a loan from a bank or a tbill, it's debt compounded by interest. MMT merely describes the reality of a FIAT currency for a nation that owes debts in its own currency. That is all it really is folks, it reveals what is actually happening rather than perpetuate artifacts from the gold era.

A debt upon taxpayers.

 

[Individual]

Money itself is, at its core, an illusion -- sustained by the power of the government. Just as property is. Libertarians will insist that property and money have an intrinsic value beyond government, beyond time and space. To which I laugh in their face, and generally force them off the forum for a few weeks out of sheer humiliation. Capitalism is an exercise in government power, and the notion that a capitalist system can exist outside of government (and therefore replace government) is the mindset of a BABY.

Many forms of property DO have intrinsic value, though fiat currencies can become absolutely worthless, and until they do their values gradually diminish.

 

[Individual]

You came on way too strong and you're wrong in several ways. One (or two?): Surely currency existed in prehistoric ages, and government is not necessary to have currency.

Maybe instead of paying politicians we should only provide them and their families with shelter, 3 meals a day, and nothing more than the basic needs of life during their terms in office. Would probably not hear anything about term limits any more.

 

[Individual]

U.S. government spending IS investment...in the people, goods, and services, they spend on. It fuels our economy, similar to consumer spending.
When you invest in the public, they in turn spend that money on other goods/services, and the economy goes round and round. Just like when a private business pays people...that too goes back into the economy primarily as spending.

When you invest in infrastructure, that's also investment in that it facilitates quality of life, trade, transportation, health, etc.

If you want money out of politics, that's a different animal, that's a Republican effort you have to stop...the citizens united ruling. Thanks to the Republican-biased SCOTUS.
Back legislation that gets big money out of politics...please.

So is buying stock in a company, which may or may not produce any gains.

 

[post]

Money is actually a form of debt, its origins lie in issuing debts. Think about how money is created today. It is issued as a form of debt whether its a loan from a bank or a tbill, it's debt compounded by interest. MMT merely describes the reality of a FIAT currency for a nation that owes debts in its own currency. That is all it really is folks, it reveals what is actually happening rather than perpetuate artifacts from the gold era.

The value of that currency or at least the expectation that it is and will be stable is influenced by the yet to be legislated potential to tax the earners and accumulators of U.S. currency at higher rates than presently.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Many forms of property DO have intrinsic value, though fiat currencies can become absolutely worthless, and until they do their values gradually diminish.

Not without government.

 

[Individual]

Not without government.

Perhaps you could clarify that?

 

[Dans La Lune]

Perhaps you could clarify that?

What is to clarify? Property doesn't exist to any real degree without government. Property requires that government acknowledge and protect it.

 

[Individual]

What is to clarify? Property doesn't exist to any real degree without government. Property requires that government acknowledge and protect it.

Or the owner protects it, perhaps sometimes with the aid of family, friends, neighbors, or strangers willing to help for free or a fee.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Or the owner protects it, perhaps sometimes with the aid of family, friends, neighbors, or strangers willing to help for free or a fee.

IOW, the person with the biggest posse gets to claim ownership of the 'property'. And the person who wins becomes to the property owner.

Which means... property doesn't really exist. It's an exercise of the monopoly of force. Even in situations where you are legally allowed to protect your property with force, that is an allowance granted to you by government (or feudal lord).

 

[aociswundumho]

Expect that you generally have to be affluent to attend a private school. It's not a model for the general public.

It would be if the rotten government didn't confiscate nearly 1 trillion dollars per year from the taxpayer to produce functionally illiterate adults in government-run schools.

Healthcare

You believe the NHS is superior to private hospitals?

and infrastructure.

Yeah the pothole ridden roads and crumbling bridges are testament to that.

The progressive agenda is that the individual has more say in the application of the 'monopoly of force'.

No, the progressive agenda is to increase the size and scope of the state, which decreases the liberty of the individual.

 

[Individual]

IOW, the person with the biggest posse gets to claim ownership of the 'property'. And the person who wins becomes to the property owner.

Which means... property doesn't really exist. It's an exercise of the monopoly of force. Even in situations where you are legally allowed to protect your property with force, that is an allowance granted to you by government (or feudal lord).

That's nonsense, property exists. Who possesses it may change for a number of reasons, whether they be legal, ethical or moral or not.
True ownership of some property, as a result of government, is something else.

 

[American]

Have you ever considered that government spending (on some things, not on others) is an investment?

Some things and not others, without specificity means nothing.

 

[Dans La Lune]

It would be if the rotten government didn't confiscate nearly 1 trillion dollars per year from the taxpayer to produce functionally illiterate adults in government-run schools.

So the public education in your state is producing illiterate adults? Lets look at that:

"Connecticut ranks second in the nation for public schools, ranking second for quality and 19th for safety. Connecticut students have the highest median ACT score of 25.5 and have the third-highest reading test scores. Connecticut spends about $18,958 per student, one of the highest per-pupil spendings in the country. Connecticut is also one of the best states for teachers due to having small class sizes and some of the best-paid teachers in the U.S. with an average annual salary of $73,113."

Meanwhile:

"The average private high school tuition in Connecticut is $40,378 per year (2022). "

Connecticut Private High Schools By Tuition Cost (2023-24)

View the 2023-24 directory of private high schools with the highest tuition cost in Connecticut. Read about top schools like: Madina Academy, Christian Heritage School and Faith Prep School.

www.privateschoolreview.com

This is an apples to apples comparison. Do private schools in Connecticut perform more than twice as well as public schools? I'm asking. Show me the statistics.

If they don't perform AT LEAST twice as well, this is another example of the public sector providing a better service at lower cost.

You believe the NHS is superior to private hospitals?

Demonstrably yes. Being rich in a privatized system has one advantage: It allows you to cut in line.

Yeah the pothole ridden roads and crumbling bridges are testament to that.

A lack of investment in public infrastructure is a political decision. Who controls politicians in America? The last 20-30 years the Democrats have been corporatists, and the Republicans even longer and to a greater degree.

No, the progressive agenda is to increase the size and scope of the state, which decreases the liberty of the individual.

If you decrease the people's control of government, you are necessarily increasing corporate control over government. There is no way around this. So again, why do you want to be ruled by corporations?

 

[Felis Leo]

That statement proves you know next to nothing about it.

To be fair, I know less than that.

 

[bomberfox]

Their description of our monetary system is spot on. Their prescriptions and descriptions of business cycles are…. Well childishly simplistic, almost akin to how an NFT bro thinks they found this amaaaazin new discovery but doesnt know what to do with it yet. Their “hey lets mint a trillion dollar coin!” Idea reeks of that.

 

[bomberfox]

Money itself is, at its core, an illusion -- sustained by the power of the government. Just as property is. Libertarians will insist that property and money have an intrinsic value beyond government, beyond time and space. To which I laugh in their face, and generally force them off the forum for a few weeks out of sheer humiliation. Capitalism is an exercise in government power, and the notion that a capitalist system can exist outside of government (and therefore replace government) is the mindset of a BABY.

I would argue that it is an illusion now but has been a facilitation of transfer of physical objects at a rate set by social forces and is agreed upon by social forces to use.

Money is a social construct, not necessarily an illusion.

 

[bomberfox]

In fact the trillion dollar coin idea reminds me of NFTs themselves lol…

 

[What if...?]

Government doesn't have any wealth of its own. The only resources the state has is what it has stolen from the taxpayer. Since the rich and politicians are in bed together, you are correct that the state does transfer a lot of money to the rich:





Nothing has intrinsic value, all value is subjective.



It's pretty easy to show how this claim is false. Consider the enormous markets for illegal drugs, prostitution, or illegal construction work to name a few. The means of producing and distributing all three is totally private. Not only do they exist outside of the state, they exist and thrive even with the state actively trying to destroy them.

But you ain't seen nothin yet. When crypto use becomes widespread, you're going to see black markets in everything.



Well why not? We know private schools are superior to public schools, private housing is superior to public housing, private cars are superior to government-built cars, etc. Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?



On the contrary, what's utopian is to expect a bunch of scumbag politicians to not put their own personal interests ahead of what's best for the country as a whole.

Those rich people get protection from the poor people by the state. That costs money.

I know y’all worship them, but are you cool with paying the taxes for that protection? They aren’t ok with paying for it.

That’s why their tax cuts are permanent and our trump cut starts to sunset this year. So our cost for their protection goes up this year.

 

[What if...?]

So what?

And back to LW mantras and slogans.

ALEC picked all of trumps picks. And they select for business friendliness.

 

[Bullseye]

ALEC picked all of trumps picks. And they select for business friendliness.

So what? Businesses employ people and produce goods and services they want or need. They're not the enemy. Nice to get the de rigueur Trump reference - you're superiors will be proud.

 

[What if...?]

So what? Businesses employ people and produce goods and services they want or need. They're not the enemy. Nice to get the de rigueur Trump reference - you're superiors will be proud.

That’s not why Alec chose them. They are picked to give license to businesses to do as they please.