Modern Monetary Theory: Explained via Jon Stewart

[PoS]

Crypto is generally a scam.

That statement proves you know next to nothing about it.

 

[SMTA]

I'm hooked on this show. This is (again) a brilliant discussion on Modern Monetary Theory, sparked by a Twitter discussion.

"But how do you pay for it?" (the phrase Jake Tapper employs against every progressive policy agenda)



He's an article if you don't want to watch the clip: https://www.businessinsider.com/modern-monetary-theory

Main tenets of Modern Monetary Theory​

The main tenets of Modern Monetary Theory are:

• Government deficits aren't inherently bad. According to the MMT theory, deficits don't matter as much as we think they do and aren't necessarily a signal of a shaky economy. If the government can simply create more money, then the government deficits can be easily fixed. This concept is a hallmark of MMT and one of the most controversial aspects of the theory.
  
  
• Governments can create more money without threat of economic collapse. Given the fact that money is no longer backed by gold and is more theoretical in the sense it can be created at any time, many MMT supporters believe that money can be created without tanking the economy. In 2005, former Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan, followed that line of thought: "There's nothing to prevent the federal government creating as much money as it wants."
  
  
• Because the government is the creator of the currency, it doesn't need to adhere to the same individual budgeting principles. As individuals we know that our expenses shouldn't exceed our income or it'll lead to debt. Proponents of MMT say that the government doesn't need to abide by such standards since it's also the creator of the money and theoretically can create more.
  
  
• A federal jobs guarantee program is possible. Again, given the core tenet that the government can create more money, MMT theorists support the idea of a federal job guarantee as a way to stabilize the economy and put money toward human capital.
  
  
• The Federal Interest rate should be at 0%. Many MMT supporters believe that the "natural rate of interest is zero" and there should be no bond sales. On top of that, MMT supporters want to do away with the increasing and lowering of interest rates as they're ultimately not that relevant when it comes to growth and long-term business decisions.

He also has podcast called The Problem With Jon Stewart

 

[aociswundumho]

He is ideologically opposed to government, except as a means to facilitate a transfer of wealth to the super-rich.

Government doesn't have any wealth of its own. The only resources the state has is what it has stolen from the taxpayer. Since the rich and politicians are in bed together, you are correct that the state does transfer a lot of money to the rich:

Money itself is, at its core, an illusion -- sustained by the power of the government. Just as property is. Libertarians will insist that property and money have an intrinsic value beyond government, beyond time and space.

Nothing has intrinsic value, all value is subjective.

To which I laugh in their face, and generally force them off the forum for a few weeks out of sheer humiliation. Capitalism is an exercise in government power, and the notion that a capitalist system can exist outside of government (and therefore replace government) is the mindset of a BABY.

It's pretty easy to show how this claim is false. Consider the enormous markets for illegal drugs, prostitution, or illegal construction work to name a few. The means of producing and distributing all three is totally private. Not only do they exist outside of the state, they exist and thrive even with the state actively trying to destroy them.

But you ain't seen nothin yet. When crypto use becomes widespread, you're going to see black markets in everything.

We know that the right-libertarian solution for everything is privatization.

Well why not? We know private schools are superior to public schools, private housing is superior to public housing, private cars are superior to government-built cars, etc. Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?

I find libertarians to be a mix of nihilists and utopians, it really makes no sense except as an exercise in heckling.

On the contrary, what's utopian is to expect a bunch of scumbag politicians to not put their own personal interests ahead of what's best for the country as a whole.

 

[Antiwar]

Government doesn't have any wealth of its own.

Does the federal US government have debt of its own?

The only resources the state has is what it has stolen from the taxpayer.

That's not true. The land that became the US was stolen prior to the US and prior to US taxes.

Nothing has intrinsic value, all value is subjective.

Agreed.

Well why not? We know private schools are superior to public schools, private housing is superior to public housing, private cars are superior to government-built cars, etc. Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?

You value (see previous quote) private schools, etc.

Why not: Because at this point in societal evolution (devolution?) we need a balance of powers between individuals, governments, businesses, powerful, "powerless," Nature, industry, etc, etc, etc. You come at politics with your often false and rigid right-libertarian ideas and try to fit society into them. Try to start thinking outside of the right-libertarian box.

 

[Vadinho]

Government doesn't have any wealth of its own. The only resources the state has is what it has stolen from the taxpayer. Since the rich and politicians are in bed together, you are correct that the state does transfer a lot of money to the rich:





Nothing has intrinsic value, all value is subjective.



It's pretty easy to show how this claim is false. Consider the enormous markets for illegal drugs, prostitution, or illegal construction work to name a few. The means of producing and distributing all three is totally private. Not only do they exist outside of the state, they exist and thrive even with the state actively trying to destroy them.

But you ain't seen nothin yet. When crypto use becomes widespread, you're going to see black markets in everything.



Well why not? We know private schools are superior to public schools, private housing is superior to public housing, private cars are superior to government-built cars, etc. Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?



On the contrary, what's utopian is to expect a bunch of scumbag politicians to not put their own personal interests ahead of what's best for the country as a whole.

I stopped reading when you said government doesn't have any wealth of its own. This is so preposterous as to be comical. Let me explain it to you clearly, the government has the power to issue currency, it makes money out of thin air. The government owns substantial sections of our nation, they are called public lands. The government is the protector of all the wealth individuals create for themselves by taking money from other people or the government. The measure of wealth is the currency, it is issued and backed by the government. Libertarians are such funny creatures.

 

[Antiwar]

Money itself is, at its core, an illusion -- sustained by the power of the government. Just as property is. Libertarians will insist that property and money have an intrinsic value beyond government, beyond time and space. To which I laugh in their face, and generally force them off the forum for a few weeks out of sheer humiliation. Capitalism is an exercise in government power, and the notion that a capitalist system can exist outside of government (and therefore replace government) is the mindset of a BABY.

You came on way too strong and you're wrong in several ways. One (or two?): Surely currency existed in prehistoric ages, and government is not necessary to have currency.

 

[aociswundumho]

You value (see previous quote) private schools, etc.

Not just me. Virtually all parents would prefer to send their kids to a private school instead of a government-run school.

Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?

Why not: Because at this point in societal evolution (devolution?) we need a balance of powers between individuals, governments, businesses, powerful, "powerless," Nature, industry, etc, etc, etc. You come at politics with your often false and rigid right-libertarian ideas and try to fit society into them. Try to start thinking outside of the right-libertarian box.

1. This does not even come close to answering the question. If you believe government produced goods and services are superior to those produced by the market, then you need to provide some real world examples.

2. There can never be any sort of "balance of power" between the state and the individual, because the state declares a monopoly on the use of force and violence.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Government doesn't have any wealth of its own.

Nor do you, except by virtue of the government. Your wealth and property are basically guarantees that the government will honor the currency of your wealth, and protect your property.

The only resources the state has is what it has stolen from the taxpayer. Since the rich and politicians are in bed together, you are correct that the state does transfer a lot of money to the rich:

AKA Capitalism.

Nothing has intrinsic value, all value is subjective.

Money is a guarantee by the government, nothing more.

It's pretty easy to show how this claim is false. Consider the enormous markets for illegal drugs, prostitution, or illegal construction work to name a few. The means of producing and distributing all three is totally private. Not only do they exist outside of the state, they exist and thrive even with the state actively trying to destroy them.

Illegal drugs are purchased how?

But you ain't seen nothin yet. When crypto use becomes widespread, you're going to see black markets in everything.

Crypto is a ponzi scheme fueled by hype. If that hype was gone, there'd by thousand if not millions of people left holding and empty bag, without a government guarantee. In fact, when there's a large crypto theft, the first place the victims run to is the government. They don't run to John Galt for help.

Well why not? We know private schools are superior to public schools

Rich schools are better financed than poor schools, sure.

private housing is superior to public housing

Yes, mansions are better than the bare minimum of housing.

private cars are superior to government-built cars, etc. Other than national defense and a few other public goods, the market is vastly superior to the state, so why not privatize everything?

How do you purchase a private car?

On the contrary, what's utopian is to expect a bunch of scumbag politicians to not put their own personal interests ahead of what's best for the country as a whole.

Rather than being served by politicians who are bought by American oligarchs, you prefer to be ruled directly by the oligarchs. I guess there's some level of integrity in wanting to cut out the middle man and the pretense of a democracy.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Crypto absolutely destroys MMT as a viable alternative.

Crypto is generally a scam.

That statement proves you know next to nothing about it.

Apologies @PoS, we agree on quite a few things but this is not one of them.

Crypto currencies obtain their value damn near entirely on the next set of people to buy into the currency at a valuation higher than the previous set. All other currencies, including fiat money systems, are still based on a mechanism of exchange where goods and services are purchased with something. That something based on a government or a thing that has valuation because of something else, like an economy. Something real and tangible as in the exchange something is there even if it is making money off others using money. Crypto currency on the other hand does not require anything other than a slew of computers determining valuation based on who wants that currency next.

There is only one other thing that operates that way, and it happens to be ponzi schemes, throwing money into various crypto currencies on the assumption that many other people down the road do the same thing.

When nothing is produced, and nothing is valued by exchange (other than fools exchanging money for crypto,) then all you have is hope based valuation.

It is monopoly money, but instead of paper for a game it is an algorithm for "investors" looking to depart from other currency that is actually based on something. Even if that something is an economy and/or government you do not agree with.

Like every other ponzi scheme there will eventually be a crash, then everyone scouring the dark web for hit men, drugs, and stolen credit card numbers will need something else to buy that shit with. Especially since all those things, and more, eventually want to see actual money... or at least be used to buy actual things using something stolen but still based on some other currency that is not crypto.

Worse than being an open ponzi scheme (with everything that implies,) it is also a computation nightmare where most popular cryptos out there require more processing power and electricity than New York does on a given day.

 

[aociswundumho]

AKA Capitalism.

Capitalism is private property in the means of production. Please explain how rich people and politicians in bed together has anything whatsoever to do with capitalism.

Illegal drugs are purchased how?

If illegal drugs, prostitution, and illegal construction work were purchased with crypto, would you then agree that capitalism doesn't need the state?

Crypto is a ponzi scheme fueled by hype. If that hype was gone, there'd by thousand if not millions of people left holding and empty bag, without a government guarantee. In fact, when there's a large crypto theft, the first place the victims run to is the government. They don't run to John Galt for help.

In just 13 years crypto has a total market cap of over 2 trillion dollars. Even hedge funds are now moving into the space.

I don't blame you one bit for hating it. It's an absolute nightmare for the political left.

Rich schools are better financed than poor schools, sure.

The Baltimore public school system spends 18k per year per kid. The results for all that money? Zero students proficient in math.

Detroit spends nearly 16k per year per kid. The results for all that money? Half of the adults in Detroit are functionally illiterate.

Here we have the government spending roughly 17k per year per kid for 12 years (about 200k total) to produce an illiterate, innumerate, adult. How much more of a failure could it be?

Of course people like you don't care about results, you only care about increasing the number of government employees, hence you will support government-run schools no matter what.

You also like the idea of creating a giant, ignorant, permanent underclass.

Yes, mansions are better than the bare minimum of housing.

Which do you support more:

1. Building public housing projects for poor people.

2. Giving poor people section 8 vouchers so they can rent private housing.

Rather than being served by politicians who are bought by American oligarchs, you prefer to be ruled directly by the oligarchs. I guess there's some level of integrity in wanting to cut out the middle man and the pretense of a democracy.

Jeff Bezos is super rich. How much power does he have over you?

 

[aociswundumho]

All other currencies, including fiat money systems, are still based on a mechanism of exchange where goods and services are purchased with something.

Crypto can be, and is used to purchase good and services. The problem is that right now, crypto is a big pain in the ass to use. But that's nothing but an engineering problem, and as sure as the sun will come tomorrow, it will be solved.

 

[Mach]

I've heard that slogan for decades. Investments pay returns and yet debt just keeps piling up and very little gets better. And politician keep talking more "investments". Even some spending that might be considered "investments" is usually bastardized for political gain. Example, the billions Biden wants to spend to correct "racist" bridges and roads.

U.S. government spending IS investment...in the people, goods, and services, they spend on. It fuels our economy, similar to consumer spending.
When you invest in the public, they in turn spend that money on other goods/services, and the economy goes round and round. Just like when a private business pays people...that too goes back into the economy primarily as spending.

When you invest in infrastructure, that's also investment in that it facilitates quality of life, trade, transportation, health, etc.

If you want money out of politics, that's a different animal, that's a Republican effort you have to stop...the citizens united ruling. Thanks to the Republican-biased SCOTUS.
Back legislation that gets big money out of politics...please.

 

[What if...?]

I've heard people claim that capitalism needs to expand, but I don't see how it's true.

Our system requires selling more things to more people all the time. It grinds to a halt otherwise.

 

[aociswundumho]

U.S. government spending IS investment...in the people, goods, and services, they spend on.

Ok then, explain how the Iraq war (which cost the American taxpayer over 1 trillion dollars) is an investment.

 

[Bullseye]

U.S. government spending IS investment...in the people, goods, and services, they spend on. It fuels our economy, similar to consumer spending.
When you invest in the public, they in turn spend that money on other goods/services, and the economy goes round and round. Just like when a private business pays people...that too goes back into the economy primarily as spending.

Taking money from one person to give to someone else isn't investment it's buying votes.

When you invest in infrastructure, that's also investment in that it facilitates quality of life, trade, transportation, health, etc.

Logical and controlled spending on infrastructure can be an investment if done correctly - spending an amount equal to the entire federal budget is not.

If you want money out of politics, that's a different animal, that's a Republican effort you have to stop...the citizens united ruling. Thanks to the Republican-biased SCOTUS.
Back legislation that gets big money out of politics...please.

You've got the tripe and mantras down pat. Even working "Citizens' United" into your ramble.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Crypto can be, and is used to purchase good and services. The problem is that right now, crypto is a big pain in the ass to use. But that's nothing but an engineering problem, and as sure as the sun will come tomorrow, it will be solved.

And we will see more people rush into crypto facilitating the ponzi scheme, assuming we get our power grid in order.

 

[PoS]

Apologies @PoS, we agree on quite a few things but this is not one of them.

Crypto currencies obtain their value damn near entirely on the next set of people to buy into the currency at a valuation higher than the previous set.

That is completely incorrect and shows you dont really know how crypto works. The value of crypto is determined purely by market forces, and the currency is bought and sold just like the fiat currencies that governments issue. The reason why crypto prices have been skyrocketing is that there is more demand than there is supply- crypto is created by mining, and the more people trying to invest into them brings prices up due to their limited availability.

So to even claim that this is some sort of ponzi scheme shows a twisted misunderstanding of what crypto really is. I would suggest you study up on it.

 

[OrphanSlug]

That is completely incorrect and shows you dont really know how crypto works. The value of crypto is determined purely by market forces, and the currency is bought and sold just like the fiat currencies that governments issue. The reason why crypto prices have been skyrocketing is that there is more demand than there is supply- crypto is created by mining, and the more people trying to invest into them brings prices up due to their limited availability.

So to even claim that this is some sort of ponzi scheme shows a twisted misunderstanding of what crypto really is. I would suggest you study up on it.

Do you know how "crypto mining" works?

 

[Mach]

Taking money from one person to give to someone else isn't investment it's buying votes.

Nonsense. 30% of GDP is federal spending alone. You need to learn some things and give up these silly right wing talking points.

If you're serious about wanting to remove money from politics, you need to not support Republicans, it's not that difficult. They promote big business in politics, big money in politics, and they stacked the SCOTUS to support it.

 

[Bullseye]

Nonsense. 30% of GDP is federal spending alone. You need to learn some things and give up these silly right wing talking points.

So what?

If you're serious about wanting to remove money from politics, you need to not support Republicans, it's not that difficult. They promote big business in politics, big money in politics, and they stacked the SCOTUS to support it.

And back to LW mantras and slogans.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Capitalism is private property in the means of production.

What what is private property without government?

Please explain how rich people and politicians in bed together has anything whatsoever to do with capitalism.

Look at Wall Street. Hint: Wall Street buys the regulations it wants from the government.

If illegal drugs, prostitution, and illegal construction work were purchased with crypto, would you then agree that capitalism doesn't need the state?

Crypto still needs a way to cash out to be remotely valuable, and that cash out is government currency. It's an unsustainable bubble. There is literally nothing there except speculation. Look up Pump and Dump on Google.

In just 13 years crypto has a total market cap of over 2 trillion dollars. Even hedge funds are now moving into the space.

Yes, and gifs of Bored Apes are 'worth' hundreds of thousands of dollars. Would you invest in Bored Apes as a currency?

I don't blame you one bit for hating it. It's an absolute nightmare for the political left.

The only nightmare is that it is bad for the environment.

The Baltimore public school system spends 18k per year per kid. The results for all that money? Zero students proficient in math.

It was actually a handful of schools that measured at that level. You're conflating a LOT in your point. Some of these schools are charter schools, some are vocational schools, and some don't even exist anymore.

Here we have the government spending roughly 17k per year per kid for 12 years (about 200k total) to produce an illiterate, innumerate, adult. How much more of a failure could it be?

Setting the Record Straight | Baltimore City Public Schools

www.baltimorecityschools.org

"Claim No. 1 – Carlson half-heartedly cited a WBFF-TV report about fall 2021 i-Ready scores at Patterson High School to frame this series of questions: “So, the kids can’t read, they’re illiterate, what is their future look like? What does Baltimore’s future look like? What does the country’s future look like? How are they going to participate in our society?”

The truth: WBFF-TV posted City Schools’ complete response to the WBFF-TV. Carlson failed to use any part of it. The response, posted here, includes the following critical information:

As we previously stated to WBFF-TV, i-Ready scores do not provide a complete or final picture of student performance. City Schools uses i-Ready to provide checkpoints on student progress during the school year. This was the first in-person checkpoint for students at Patterson High School after 18 months of disruption caused by the pandemic. For some students, their previous in-person experience was in middle school during their seventh-grade year.

Over 40% of participating students were classified as English language learners and did not receive the accommodations they would receive on state-required assessments such as the Maryland Comprehensive Assessment Program (MCAP)."

Of course people like you don't care about results, you only care about increasing the number of government employees, hence you will support government-run schools no matter what.

The advantage of a private school is that there is a much smaller class size.

You also like the idea of creating a giant, ignorant, permanent underclass.

That's literally the underpinning of capitalism. It REQUIRES a permanent underclass.

Which do you support more:

1. Building public housing projects for poor people.

2. Giving poor people section 8 vouchers so they can rent private housing.

I haven't thought about it or researched it. What is the best bang for the buck?

Jeff Bezos is super rich. How much power does he have over you?

Wrong question: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/15/amazon-will-pay-0-in-federal-taxes-this-year.html

 

[Dans La Lune]

Not just me. Virtually all parents would prefer to send their kids to a private school instead of a government-run school.

Expect that you generally have to be affluent to attend a private school. It's not a model for the general public.

1. This does not even come close to answering the question. If you believe government produced goods and services are superior to those produced by the market, then you need to provide some real world examples.

Healthcare and infrastructure.

2. There can never be any sort of "balance of power" between the state and the individual, because the state declares a monopoly on the use of force and violence.

The progressive agenda is that the individual has more say in the application of the 'monopoly of force'. What alternative is there? If you dismantle government, who has the monopoly of force? Immorten Joe?

 

[PoS]

Do you know how "crypto mining" works?

Yup.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Yup.

It is an algorithm based guessing game, only kicked off when the next set wants to buy into the ponzi scheme.

 

[PoS]

It is an algorithm based guessing game, only kicked off when the next set wants to buy into the ponzi scheme.

Do you know what a ponzi scheme is?