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Moderator Abuse and M14 Shooter's Ban

jallman

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I am going to make this short and sweet...dont want to get banned for, I dunno, having an opinion. It has come to my attention that M14 Shooter was banned by a certain moderator shuamort for standing his ground on a topic. The abusiveness of shuamort, leading up to the ban was ...how did gunny put it? ah yes, criminal. Now I know I am probably going to get the same standard response..."we mods do our best to maintain an atmosphere of yada yada yada" but come on guys, its in black and white right there in:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=7595&page=5

I tend to think of this as a place of open ideas and exchange of information and some really good discussion. But when certain mods resort to banning as a means of shutting down a debate they are losing...well Gunny's right...its just wrong. It destroys any sense of community we have here.

Disclaimer: I do not in any way endorse any of the beliefs put forth by m14 shooter as he and I agree on practically nothing. However, he does not deserve to be banned for having an opinion and requiring sources and citations of relevance to the discussion.
 

Deegan

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jallman said:
I am going to make this short and sweet...dont want to get banned for, I dunno, having an opinion. It has come to my attention that M14 Shooter was banned by a certain moderator shuamort for standing his ground on a topic. The abusiveness of shuamort, leading up to the ban was ...how did gunny put it? ah yes, criminal. Now I know I am probably going to get the same standard response..."we mods do our best to maintain an atmosphere of yada yada yada" but come on guys, its in black and white right there in:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=7595&page=5

I tend to think of this as a place of open ideas and exchange of information and some really good discussion. But when certain mods resort to banning as a means of shutting down a debate they are losing...well Gunny's right...its just wrong. It destroys any sense of community we have here.

Disclaimer: I do not in any way endorse any of the beliefs put forth by m14 shooter as he and I agree on practically nothing. However, he does not deserve to be banned for having an opinion and requiring sources and citations of relevance to the discussion.
I certainly never viewed this guy as a problem, he was often very rational, and open minded, it is a shame he was banned. I have often thought we had too many moderators here, but it's not my show. I think that one must respect the choices that Vague has made, and he chose Shuamort as his moderator. That said, I don't know what is wrong with taking another look at it, I read the thread in question, and I must agree with the others who have voiced concern.

I hope that some sensible conclusion can be reached, I like this place, and I have admired the restrant thus far, but this crosses my line, but that's just me.
 

Deegan

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galenrox said:
Dude, you know full well that there is more going on than meets the eye. You know full well that you MIGHT see half of what actually goes on if you're lucky. We keep most moderation private to protect the members who're being moderated (i.e. if the general public knew someone was about to be banned, and someone wanted that, they might goad the member into getting him/herself banned, etc.)

I don't know all of what happened with M14shooter, I just found out about this today. That being said, shuamort is a damn fine moderator, and I know full well that he values this forum far more than you're giving him credit for. People come to this forum BECAUSE we don't ban people for having an opinion, this is what sets us apart from the conservative or liberal echo chambers. You've posted nearly 2,000 times here, and if we banned people for holding opinions or being slightly abrasive, you wouldn't still be here, I think we can agree on that. You are still here, because we value your input and like to have you around, and you're one of the best posters here, in my opinion.

I understand you're pissed, but I also know that you know that these accusations are false. If you've got issues, fine, tell me about them, but I'm not gonna stand idley by as you bash shuamort in open forums.

You know what we get paid for moderating here? That's right, nothing, we all do it solely because of our love of this site. We try to keep it civil and enjoyable, and what do we get in return? Almost nothing but grief. I've been a mod only for a couple months, and I've seen at least 2 threads and have gotten countless PMs of criticism, and not one single "thank you". So I'm sorry, but right now this criticism doesn't mean that much to me.
Then you might want to read the link sir, since you just got here and all!:roll:
 

Deegan

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galenrox said:
I did read the link. That's all I've read. You personally know that more goes on than what's on the thread.
I follow most threads, I am not bragging, lol, probably more like complaining, to myself, but I still don't see anything that would warrant a banning. Unless he was inappropriate in a P.M, I can't logically understand your meaning?:confused:

And if he was, at least he kept it private, this was a public humiliation, and until more is known, this moderator has gone too far, and lost a whole lot of respect, IMHO.
 

Deegan

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galenrox said:
That's the thing, I don't know what else happened, and neither do you. What I do know is shuamort as a moderator, and I know he's pretty ****ing good at it, and I trust his judgement. If there is a moderator who'd potentially go too far (I couldn't think of any who would, the selection process is pretty intense) it's not shuamort. He's been here quite a bit longer than either of us, and I know how much he values keeping this site running well, and he knows that banning someone for having an opinion would work against that.
I agree, he seems fair, but I think he let his emotions get the best of him here, just my opinion. We are all human, and mistakes happen, I hope this one will be corrected, that's all I'm saying.
 

jallman

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galenrox said:
Dude, you know full well that there is more going on than meets the eye. You know full well that you MIGHT see half of what actually goes on if you're lucky. We keep most moderation private to protect the members who're being moderated (i.e. if the general public knew someone was about to be banned, and someone wanted that, they might goad the member into getting him/herself banned, etc.)
Oh I understand this completely...I am fully aware that you guys put a lot of effort into trying to keep things fair. I am not making any apologies for pointing out the fact that in this case the appearance is that someone lost his cool and reacted instead of acted. If any goading went on, then it was by shuamort when m14 shooter refused to capitulate. Dance around it any way you wish and throw out all the feigned indignation you wish, but the record is clear...

I don't know all of what happened with M14shooter, I just found out about this today. That being said, shuamort is a damn fine moderator, and I know full well that he values this forum far more than you're giving him credit for. People come to this forum BECAUSE we don't ban people for having an opinion, this is what sets us apart from the conservative or liberal echo chambers. You've posted nearly 2,000 times here, and if we banned people for holding opinions or being slightly abrasive, you wouldn't still be here, I think we can agree on that. You are still here, because we value your input and like to have you around, and you're one of the best posters here, in my opinion.
Oh, I go beyond slightly abrasive sometimes. It would just appear that I have not been abrasive with the wrong person in the wrong mood yet. This whole issue (from how it appears, mind you) was a hissy fit that went too far. Everybody has bad days; one would hope that this one can be corrected. By the way, the sentiment you made concerning the value of my input is reciprocated.

I understand you're pissed, but I also know that you know that these accusations are false. If you've got issues, fine, tell me about them, but I'm not gonna stand idley by as you bash shuamort in open forums.
Bashing shuamort or defending M14 shooter? I am making no bones about the fact that the thread in question progressed sourly and ended in a severe injustice against M14 Shooter. I think it speaks volumes that there is no love lost between M14 and myself, yet I am here defending him. Am I making shuamort out to be a bad person or mod overall-NO. I am saying that situation at hand needs to be rectified and that mods are not infallible-secret mod forums or not.

You know what we get paid for moderating here? That's right, nothing, we all do it solely because of our love of this site. We try to keep it civil and enjoyable, and what do we get in return? Almost nothing but grief. I've been a mod only for a couple months, and I've seen at least 2 threads and have gotten countless PMs of criticism, and not one single "thank you". So I'm sorry, but right now this criticism doesn't mean that much to me.
Galen, forgive me if my sympathies do not run very deep. These are merely the joys and crises one must expect to face when taking on the responsibility of enforcement of the rules.
 

Deegan

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galenrox said:
Oh, and by the way, just as a heads up, I'm gonna start smokin some reefer now, so keep that in mind in any continuation of this conversation!
Smoking on the job!:shock:

Now I must insist on the removal of Galen from his duties!:lol:
 

jallman

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galenrox said:
Nor do I want you to apologize, if we didn't get criticized, then our power would go unchecked.
And the indignation wasn't feigned by any means, it was completely genuine. There are few members who have closer ties to the moderators than you, and so you know better than most what goes on, and so I'm indignant over how little faith you have in us. If this was someone new, or someone who I didn't consider a buddy, I wouldn't have been indignant at all.
This is neither an attack on shuamort nor is it an undermining of the mods. I am fully aware of what you guys deal with and how careful you are. However, this is an outcry against what appears to be a blatant abuse of power. Galen, is it possible you are taking this a little too personally?

If it turns out you're right, it'll be corrected. I'm just saying that I have a lot more faith in shuamort than you do, apparently. No one moderator has the ability to run this forum by him/herself other than vague, and every single action we take is reviewed by the other moderators, and so if you're right, it'll be fixed, but I can't say how much that I doubt that shuamort is in the wrong.
And I am saying that by all appearances, this particular situation got out of hand. If you are going to ban M14, ban him over something he really did do, rather than letting shuamort's failure to back up his point be the powder keg. Its like I always say...shrewd as a serpent, innocent as a lamb.

Just think about it. In your experience in debating here, who's been more level headed, M14 Shooter or shuamort? At least in my experience it's always been shuamort.
My experience has no bearing when you look at that situation and how it unfolded. Does it not strike you odd that I am defending M14 over shuamort?

That is true, we are not infallible...anywho, I've already explained earlier in this post about moderator review, I won't patronize you in saying it again.

I just think that you're a little quick to jump to a very negative conclusion about him.
I am not saying mort's a bad guy...just that in this particular instance, he behaved very poorly and it shows. I thought maybe hearing it from me would get that point across.

Indeed, you just also have to keep in mind if everyone complains all of the time, each complaint loses some of its value. We don't have issues with complaint, but when it's only complaint with no appreciation, it makes everyone a little testy when it comes to criticism.
Noted, and I am sorry you have not felt appreciated. I see people giving you guys a lot of appreciation in spells, and criticism in spells. Its just that right now one of you behaved poorly and he is taking his heat. You go back and read that thread and then tell me that by all appearances it didnt look bad. You are a reasonable guy so you're the right one to ask. Think about it and get back to me tomorrow...right now I have a date with a morphine drip and some sound sleep. ;)
 

Kelzie

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jallman said:
Its like I always say...shrewd as a serpent, innocent as a lamb.
I've never heard you say that. I think you're lying.
 

Gardener

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Wouldn't these situations be circumvented by simply adopting some fairly straightforward administrative procedures in regards to moderators recusing themselves when involved in these sorts of interactions?

Seems like a sensible approach to me, anyway.
 

cherokee

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Can I offer a suggestion? Instead of banning someone who didn’t make a direct threat to life or limb, set up a Jail. That’s a board they will be sent to for X amount of days until they are set free. Hence no one loses the site…
(I also mod a few sites)

I didn’t always see eye to eye with M14 but from what I know of him he’s not a bad person…I read the thread in question and didn’t find anything really that offending.
M14 should have pointed out some site but all in all is that worth being banned for?
 

cherokee

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Gardener said:
Wouldn't these situations be circumvented by simply adopting some fairly straightforward administrative procedures in regards to moderators recusing themselves when involved in these sorts of interactions?

Seems like a sensible approach to me, anyway.
Not really, but at the sites I mod at we put the banning of a member up for vote on the Mod/Adm board.
 

Schweddy

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cherokee said:
Not really, but at the sites I mod at we put the banning of a member up for vote on the Mod/Adm board.
We do not have individual mods here - everyone of us are "super moderators". Basically we have ability to mod any forum.

As Galenrox mentioned, there is *much* going on behind the scenes that is transparent. We have a hidden points warning system for everyone. We also have written standards by which we are to apply action. On top of that we do indeed have moderator discretion. All of these must be adheared to before a ban takes place.

On another note; I do like the idea of a "jail" - it has been discussed before in the team and just might be something we should look further in to.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by jallman:
I am going to make this short and sweet...dont want to get banned for, I dunno, having an opinion. It has come to my attention that M14 Shooter was banned by a certain moderator shuamort for standing his ground on a topic. The abusiveness of shuamort, leading up to the ban was ...how did gunny put it? ah yes, criminal. Now I know I am probably going to get the same standard response..."we mods do our best to maintain an atmosphere of yada yada yada" but come on guys, its in black and white right there in:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showth...?t=7595&page=5

I tend to think of this as a place of open ideas and exchange of information and some really good discussion. But when certain mods resort to banning as a means of shutting down a debate they are losing...well Gunny's right...its just wrong. It destroys any sense of community we have here.

Disclaimer: I do not in any way endorse any of the beliefs put forth by m14 shooter as he and I agree on practically nothing. However, he does not deserve to be banned for having an opinion and requiring sources and citations of relevance to the discussion.
I do not believe in the banning of anyone. With that being said, M14 was not debating. He was trolling. He was offering no new evidence or source or link to prove his position or disprove Shuamort's. If you look up the definition of debate, you will find that M14 was not doing any of it. I have read the transcript of the debate in question and I will say catagorically GySgt is wrong!

I have debated (or tried to) M14 on several issues. And it always broke down to him acting like the Vancom Lady from Mad TV. Putting his fingers in his ears and chanting, "La-la-la la-la-la..." That's not debating.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Deegan:
I certainly never viewed this guy as a problem, he was often very rational, and open minded, it is a shame he was banned. I have often thought we had too many moderators here, but it's not my show. I think that one must respect the choices that Vague has made, and he chose Shuamort as his moderator. That said, I don't know what is wrong with taking another look at it, I read the thread in question, and I must agree with the others who have voiced concern.

I hope that some sensible conclusion can be reached, I like this place, and I have admired the restrant thus far, but this crosses my line, but that's just me.
I thought a couple of times Shuamort was pretty quick to pull the trigger on me. But the more I got to see his posts, the more respect I have for the guy. Shuamort is fair and reasonable and certainly one of the better mod's. And that's saying something because I know I'm not on his Christmas list.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Galenrox:
Dude, you know full well that there is more going on than meets the eye. You know full well that you MIGHT see half of what actually goes on if you're lucky. We keep most moderation private to protect the members who're being moderated (i.e. if the general public knew someone was about to be banned, and someone wanted that, they might goad the member into getting him/herself banned, etc.)

I don't know all of what happened with M14shooter, I just found out about this today. That being said, shuamort is a damn fine moderator, and I know full well that he values this forum far more than you're giving him credit for. People come to this forum BECAUSE we don't ban people for having an opinion, this is what sets us apart from the conservative or liberal echo chambers. You've posted nearly 2,000 times here, and if we banned people for holding opinions or being slightly abrasive, you wouldn't still be here, I think we can agree on that. You are still here, because we value your input and like to have you around, and you're one of the best posters here, in my opinion.

I understand you're pissed, but I also know that you know that these accusations are false. If you've got issues, fine, tell me about them, but I'm not gonna stand idley by as you bash shuamort in open forums.

You know what we get paid for moderating here? That's right, nothing, we all do it solely because of our love of this site. We try to keep it civil and enjoyable, and what do we get in return? Almost nothing but grief. I've been a mod only for a couple months, and I've seen at least 2 threads and have gotten countless PMs of criticism, and not one single "thank you". So I'm sorry, but right now this criticism doesn't mean that much to me.
Galen, thank you for this post (I'm not being sarcastic).
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Vauge:
On another note; I do like the idea of a "jail" - it has been discussed before in the team and just might be something we should look further in to.
Can I be the jailer? The guy that is their only link to the outside forums.
The guy they have to debate with until they get paroled.

Can I? Can I?

Send all the debate bad boys to:
billo island!
 

Deegan

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Have you no pride man, four back to back posts, with nothing but complete a$$ kissing, hey, it just might work though.:rofl

Seriously though, will we know when a decision is reached, or has one been reached already?:confused:
 

jallman

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vauge said:
On another note; I do like the idea of a "jail" - it has been discussed before in the team and just might be something we should look further in to.
What is the "jail" thing? How would that work...sounds like fun...jail. Kind of like the idea, especially since people get confused and call me "jailman" all the time. :rofl
 

jallman

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Billo_Really said:
I thought a couple of times Shuamort was pretty quick to pull the trigger on me. But the more I got to see his posts, the more respect I have for the guy. Shuamort is fair and reasonable and certainly one of the better mod's. And that's saying something because I know I'm not on his Christmas list.
I dont think shuamort is typically trigger happy...a little snippy when he does make a mod action, but not trigger happy. Its like I said, I think it was a bad day that just got out of hand.
 

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billo you got a little brown leftovers on your nose...LOL
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Calm2Chaos
billo you got a little brown leftovers on your nose...LOL
I thought billo island was a pretty nifty idea to take care of possible malfeasant's, such as yourself.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Billo_Really said:
I thought billo island was a pretty nifty idea to take care of possible malfeasant's, such as yourself.
No Island can hold me..............:lol:
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Calm2Chaos
No Island can hold me..............
Whatever you say, Mark Spitz.
 
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