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MLB new hit king!

calamity said:
Oh oh...Pete played in a much harder era, with fewer teams and far better starting rotations than we see today. Hell, these days, most 4 and 5 pitchers are minor leaguers and middle relievers are almost all sandlot level, compared to the guys hurling in the 70's.
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Ichiro played against deep bullpens and left-handed specialists. Pete didn't. I don't buy for an instant that Rose's era was harder.
 
Kobie said:
Ichiro played against deep bullpens and left-handed specialists. Pete didn't. I don't buy for an instant that Rose's era was harder.
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IMO the pitching now is better then I've ever seen it, and I've been following baseball since the 60's. I know it's impossible to compare different eras. The dead ball era, Bob Gibson's ridiculously low ERA in the 60's, the steroid era, etc.

But IMO what we are seeing NOW, with the amount of very, very good starters. And closers. Right now it's the best ever. Kershaw especially is from another world.
 
Kobie said:
Ichiro played against deep bullpens and left-handed specialists. Pete didn't. I don't buy for an instant that Rose's era was harder.
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4th and 5th starters typically suck today due to expansion. Also, most teams have lousy middle-relievers. But, I accept Anagram's stats showing that the number of hits back then is consistent with the number of hits today.
 
Ichiro is not the MLB hit King. Of course he isn't, because over 1000 of his hits weren't in MLB. I do, however, think he is a better hitter than Rose was. And yes, I'm in the camp that believes if he played his entire career in MLB, he would have shattered Rose's record. Doesn't matter though, it is something that can never be proven.


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Anagram said:
Ichiro got more than 200 hits one season in Japan because they play 30 fewer games a year. He got 200+ ten straight seasons in the MLB. The lack of 30 games makes up for the lesser quality of competition for a counting stat like hits. (Not homers with the shorter fences though. Very good reason Sadaharu Oh was never the HR king).

I don't necessarily think we should count Ichiro's Japanese hits, but we should recognize that it if Ichiro came up in the United States, even if he made the majors at 21 instead of 19 in Japan, it is overwhelmingly likely he would have passed Rose's record.
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What if Napoleon had a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo?
 
Anagram said:
I still think this is a bit different than the Warren Moon/Sadaharu Oh comps people have been throwing out there with this story in that Ichiro would've almost definitely had more hits per season in the MLB than he did in Japan.
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That seems like a stretch.

Does the hit total for minor leaguers and their BA always increase when they come to the majors?

Seems like the general rule is that when a minor leaguer makes the majors, the first test is to see if he can hit the Major League Curve.
 
Anagram said:
No you can't. And I don't think you should. But you can say that it is highly likely Ichiro would have the most hits all time if he played his whole career here. You can't say that about Warren Moon or Sadaharu Oh. Therefore I think it's something that's alright to note and celebrate.
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Very likely and actually did it are two very different things.

The Vikings were heavy favorites over the Chiefs in Super Bowl IV.

They were "very likely" to win that game. They lost big time.
 
code1211 said:
What if Napoleon had a B-52 at the Battle of Waterloo?
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He probably would've won. The difference is that is an irrelevant hypothetical and this one is relevant when talking about which player is better and generating hits.
 
code1211 said:
That seems like a stretch.

Does the hit total for minor leaguers and their BA always increase when they come to the majors?

Seems like the general rule is that when a minor leaguer makes the majors, the first test is to see if he can hit the Major League Curve.
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Often their hits per season go up because minor leagues play 140ish games a season. BA doesn't, but hits still do
 
code1211 said:
Very likely and actually did it are two very different things.

The Vikings were heavy favorites over the Chiefs in Super Bowl IV.

They were "very likely" to win that game. They lost big time.
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Right, which is one of the reasons I'm not suggesting we actually count them, the other being they're literally not major league hits. But it is worthwhile to look at when deciding who was better at creating hits and who would likely have the crown if they both came up in America.
 
calamity said:
:lol: pretty much sums up the argument.
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No it doesn't. Ichiro averaged 225 hits in his first 10 seasons in the majors. He averaged 178 his age 21-26 seasons in Japan. Unless you're suggesting his actual talent level jumped ridiculously his age 27 season and stayed above his Japanese talent level until he was 37 then it is very likely he would've ended up with more hits.

This argument is both relevant, unlike that hypo, and well supported.
 
Anagram said:
Probably not always. Ichiro would've if he played his whole career here. Someone in the next 100 years probably will break it here. It's not like DiMaggio or Ripken's records.
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Any record set can be broken. If one person can get to X, another person can get to X+1. Some are less likely, but even DiMaggio's and/or Ripken's can be.
 
radcen said:
Any record set can be broken. If one person can get to X, another person can get to X+1. Some are less likely, but even DiMaggio's and/or Ripken's can be.
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DiMaggio's will be broken if they keep playing forever, just not one likely to be broken on the next 1000 years or so. Ripken's really won't, unless there's a shift in how they play the game. Most years because of the new importantance of rest, nobody plays 162 games in one season, let alone 16 years in a row.
 
The game has changed. IMO we are 2-4 years from seeing teams going to a 6 man starting rotation.. So Cy Young's 511 career wins is safe. McLain is the last 30 game winner we'll ever see too.
 
Anagram said:
DiMaggio's will be broken if they keep playing forever, just not one likely to be broken on the next 1000 years or so. Ripken's really won't, unless there's a shift in how they play the game. Most years because of the new importantance of rest, nobody plays 162 games in one season, let alone 16 years in a row.
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Ripken, truthfully, shouldn't have broken Gehrig's record to begin with, given what you say here. There were times that he wasn't 100% where he should have rested, but his pursuit of the record was well-known and in many ways the record became more important than the day's game. Everybody, managers, team executives, and even Ripken himself, were all complicit in that.

To be honest, I don't find Ripken's record all that impressive. Not as a top-tier record, anyway. He stayed healthy. Ok. To me, DiMaggio's record is much more impressive.
 
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SenorXm/Sirius said:
The game has changed. IMO we are 2-4 years from seeing teams going to a 6 man starting rotation.. So Cy Young's 511 career wins is safe. McLain is the last 30 game winner we'll ever see too.
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Even 300 wins will become less common.

I'm not sure I see a 6-man rotation coming, but rather 5 innings as a "quality start". There is such a thing as too much rest for a pitcher's arm.
 
radcen said:
Even 300 wins will become less common.

I'm not sure I see a 6-man rotation coming, but rather 5 innings as a "quality start". There is such a thing as too much rest for a pitcher's arm.
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In Japan the pitchers start once a week.

I'm not saying that's right, but the pitchers in MLB are making 10-20-25 mil a year. I can see the teams going to a once a week start to protect their arms.

I agree in the past and the era of split finger pitches and sinkers there was pitchers who lost their effectiveness from TOO much rest. But nowadays with everyone throwing 95 mph, and cutters, and sliders. I think the teams will move to more rest, more caution.
 
radcen said:
Even 300 wins will become less common.

I'm not sure I see a 6-man rotation coming, but rather 5 innings as a "quality start". There is such a thing as too much rest for a pitcher's arm.
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300 wins has already become less common. Only four pitchers have hit the mark since 1990, and the most recent of those (Randy Johnson) was 2009.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
The game has changed. IMO we are 2-4 years from seeing teams going to a 6 man starting rotation.. So Cy Young's 511 career wins is safe. McLain is the last 30 game winner we'll ever see too.
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Young's record has been safe for about 75 years.

And yeah, nobody will win 30 again.
 
Anagram said:
DiMaggio's will be broken if they keep playing forever, just not one likely to be broken on the next 1000 years or so. Ripken's really won't, unless there's a shift in how they play the game. Most years because of the new importantance of rest, nobody plays 162 games in one season, let alone 16 years in a row.
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DiMaggio's record will be broken by Buck Bokai of the London Kings in 2032.
 
Ichiro is still popular in Seattle, cant remember seeing his jersey this year the one time I went to a Mariners game but there were probably some, there always has been since he left.
 
Kobie said:
300 wins has already become less common. Only four pitchers have hit the mark since 1990, and the most recent of those (Randy Johnson) was 2009.
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...and it will become less common still. 250, or even 200, will be the new 300.
 
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