Mixed Economy

[Lafayette]

No, he's correct . In the end, all progressives and liberals all support commie values. Do you believe healthcare is a right, and should be provided by the state? How about food, water, shelter, transportation, internet service, etc? The truth is, you and every other progressive believes people should receive goods and services according to their needs. You also believe in progressive taxation, where people are robbed by the state according to their ability to pay. You're all commies to one degree or another.

Well, I'm a progressive and I do not support "commie values".

Besides, with that sort of idiocy, I'll bet I know already what you mean by "commie values". Any thought or action that is not fully acceptable to knot-heads in the Replicant Party.

Gotcha! You are all sooooo boringly alike ...

 

[aociswundumho]

Well, I'm a progressive and I do not support "commie values".

Should people get healthcare according to their needs?

Should people be taxed according to their ability to pay?

 

[Lafayette]

A clever way to justify your indecision with your wisdom. "I stand by your ideologiesб because I am above all of you and smarter".
But Lenin believed that the choice of the party is inevitable and necessary, and I am on the side of Lenin, as the most authoritative theorist and practitioner of the construction of a communist state.
Lenin believed that antagonism between classes is inevitable in capitalist society and must eventually lead to the establishment of the dictatorship of one of the main classes, and the only alternative to the dictatorship of the proletariat, he considered the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. After the proletariat has come to power, although it has become the ruling class, the class struggle nevertheless continues, but in new forms and with new means. But these are already state forms of class struggle, such as the suppression of the resistance of the overthrown classes, civil war, the neutralization of the petty bourgeoisie, the use of bourgeois specialists, and the education of a new discipline of labor

Lenin was one of the more boring types of original Communist.

He died of a sclerosis of brain and I suggest that affected his ability to think. Just a presumption on my part, but nonetheless possible given the illness ...

 

[Ringo Stalin]

Capitalism guarantees:
1. The rich-increase their wealth.
2. To beggars-freedom of choice of a garbage dump.
3. The rest - the illusion of influence on politics and the economy.
4. The resolution of their contradictions by thinning out categories 2 and 3 by famine and war

 

[Ringo Stalin]

Lenin was one of the more boring types of original Communist.

We can qualify Lenin in any way we want. But he really was a brilliant guy.
He was really a visionary and a genius.
Within the limits of what is available to real people. With mistakes and misconceptions.
But he was unrealistically cool, considering the situation in the country in which he took power, and then defeated all the enemies and practically gathered the country back together. He died an absolute winner
He started an amazing project - the USSR. And a lot of things he saw almost as "man from the future"
The fact that his followers did not understand, that he was not the son of God is a tragedy and a comedy. Having degenerated Marxism-Leninism into a religion, they destroyed it. But this is no longer Lenin's fault
The hatred, the hysterical fear that Lenin still evokes in the seemingly all-powerful minority of capitalists, shows that Lenin is here.

 

[Lafayette]

NO CHANGE!

We can qualify Lenin in any way we want. But he really was a brilliant guy.
He was really a visionary and a genius.

Not difficult in the beginning of the 20th century.

Visionary? Wow ... rather "nightmarish". Yet another Bolshevik who wanted to replace a Russian Regent Tzar with a Communist Tzar. And what happened? (There is yet another Tsar still in the Kremlin!)

Communism had a run, supported largely by the need to defeat Hitler, and then finally died-its-due-death! And, so, what has changed in Russia over the past century?

Nada, nothing, rien, kine, tipota, niente ... !

 

[Ringo Stalin]

. Communism has already proved amply well that the state owning the means of production is simply dysfunctional!

The total volume of industrial production of the USSR before the WWII came out on top in Europe and on the second place in the world. This is from tsarist Russia, whose industry before the First World War was 4% in the world and which came out of the civil war completely ruined. And this is without external loans, just for 10 years, all on internal resources. So don't talk about the ineffectiveness of socialism.

 

[Michael McMahon]

“More than 42% of all treated water in Ireland is lost through leaking pipes... The long-term solution, Dr Collins believes, is a national strategy on conservation, including accelerated leakage reduction.”
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.iri...at-is-happening-with-leaks-1.4274694?mode=amp

I don’t know too much about the issue. I know government borrowing is usually a last resort due to expensive interest rates. But if it’s cheaper in the long term to repair it now then that strikes me as a textbook example of where getting a loan might be an option.


“Jonathan Powell, ex-PM Tony Blair’s chief negotiator for the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, was one of the few voices in the British establishment to warn that Johnson’s deal posed a serious threat to Northern Irish unionists’ interests. “The hard border in the Irish Sea is a real problem for them,” Powell wrote in the Irish Times soon after Johnson reached the deal.”
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.fra...ndless-tension-among-northern-irish-unionists

Again I don’t have a clue about the technicalities of trade regulations and customs checks. I was thinking though that if necessary general taxes from central government could be used to pay some of the estimated overall balance to other countries at the end of the year without there needing to be checks on every item.

 

[Mircea]

View attachment 67328807
​

Yeah, Finland, with a population the same as Cook County, Illinois -- and Cook County is just one of 3,007 counties, boroughs and parishes in the US -- is supposed to be comparable to the US?

Feel free to move to Finland, but I'm guessing they wouldn't have you.

 

[HangLow]

Yeah, Finland, with a population the same as Cook County, Illinois -- and Cook County is just one of 3,007 counties, boroughs and parishes in the US -- is supposed to be comparable to the US?

Feel free to move to Finland, but I'm guessing they wouldn't have you.

​

 

[Mircea]

View attachment 67332412​

Nothing I've said suggests I'm a super patriot and your cartoon isn't even applicable, but then I guess cartoons is all you got.

 

[HangLow]

Nothing I've said suggests I'm a super patriot
and your cartoon isn't even applicable,
but then I guess cartoons is all you got.

Feel free to move to Finland,
but I'm guessing they wouldn't have you.

J.K. Rowling's transphobia

Did you bother to notice that I posted that to Tim The Plumber after he desperately back-pedaled from his foot in mouth reply? Did you bother to notice that who you posted it to is irrelevant as I referenced it to show how you back-peddled from my posts after I dismantled yours.

debatepolitics.com

J.K. Rowling's transphobia

Did you bother to notice that I posted that to Tim The Plumber after he desperately back-pedaled from his foot in mouth reply? Did you bother to notice that who you posted it to is irrelevant as I referenced it to show how you back-peddled from my posts after I dismantled yours.

debatepolitics.com

I agree... There is nothing Super about you...
Our conversation is over... I wish you well...
-Peace

​

 

[Mircea]

Feel free to move to Finland,
but I'm guessing they wouldn't have you.

I agree... There is nothing Super about you...
Our conversation is over... I wish you well...
-Peace

What conversation?

It's hard to converse with someone who doesn't understand the difference between a homogeneous nation-State and a heterogeneous country (that by definition is not a nation-State).

Maybe when you learn the difference you can discuss more fruitfully.

 

[Michael McMahon]

"A communist seeks the abolition of property, whether held by the state or private firms and citizens; they want all of us to own everything equally and become our own dictators. A communist seeks conditions to end the state entirely and have all human society collectively managed."
https://qz.com/965740/why-im-a-communist-and-why-you-should-be-too/

Some organisations in a free society resemble small-scale communism but they all have limitations. Religious monks live an egalitarian life where all the resources are shared out by the church. The wages of priests from their jobs in the free market or public ones like teaching at schools are paid first to the church and only afterwards does the church give the priest an allowance from their gross wage. However this example requires immense personal conviction in their faith that might not be replicated by every citizen in a communist state. Moreover communism is often attached to atheism which means they can't rely on faith alone to inspire equality. Furthermore financial equality is a long-term commitment where a salary is for each year's work where as religious beliefs of a reward in the afterlife is more goal-oriented and teleological. Equal pay for equal work in a mixed economy is a principle of equality and fairness in either gender or an employee's work rate even though this would be too vague for communism since equal work in capitalism is dependent on subjective notions of innovation and competition in skills. In wartime a country can resemble communism where civilians and soldiers self-sacrifice for the war effort without proportional pay. A soldier who gives up their life in battle works harder than any millionaire CEO. Athough this instance relies on a shared external threat that isn't replicable in the market economy unless there's a natural disaster or famine that poses an existential threat. Prehistoric societies of hunter-gatherers may have had elements of communism by sharing the collected food. Nevertheless these societies wouldn't have been ideal in that there would have been a power imbalance between their kings that would have been needed for defence of the tribe and also the shared goods were small. So I think communism isn't physically impossible in the sense that one could theoretically roll the dice 10 times and get the number 6 in each one but it's still psychologically unrealistic for a society of millions of civilians. Private businesses outnumber co-operatives not because of a CIA conspiracy but simply because the high start-up requirements are barriers to entry and they have higher profit incentives to expand the organisation. This ratio of co-operatives to private corporations is worsened by the fact that our economy is influenced by industrial and agricultural companies that were founded hundreds of years ago. Although the government could still incentivise the creation of co-operatives through subsidies if they wanted to promote greater equality.

 

[aociswundumho]

Prehistoric societies of hunter-gatherers may have had elements of communism by sharing the collected food.

So does just about every modern family in existence. Communism and even communistic ideas just don't scale, and they are not morally defensible.

 

[psikeyhackr]

It is curious that mandatory accounting/finance in the schools is too difficult an idea for people who believe in economic ideologies.

A Swedish socialist high school teacher told me that he objected to mandatory accounting on the grounds that the math would make Capitalism seem logical to the students.

Ridiculous! Of course the capitalists would object to the competition. The peons must be kept ignorant.

 

[HangLow]

It is curious that mandatory accounting/finance in the schools is too difficult an idea for people who believe in economic ideologies.

A Swedish socialist high school teacher told me that he objected to mandatory accounting on the grounds that the math would make Capitalism seem logical to the students.

Ridiculous! Of course the capitalists would object to the competition. The peons must be kept ignorant.

 

[psikeyhackr]

What we have is consumerism.

What did Karl Marx say about Planned Obsolescence and the depreciation of durable consumer goods?

Economists do not mention NDP, Net Domestic Product. The world population has tripled since WWII and economists have been glorifying the production of under engineered consumer trash that increases cash flow.

What is NDP?
Can economists do algebra?

NDP = GDP - Dcap
Real NDP = GDP - (Dcap + Dcon)
Dcap = Depreciation of Capital Goods
Dcon = Depreciation of Consumer Goods

GDP = Grossly Distorted Propaganda

http://www.toxicdrums.com/economic-wargames-by-dal-timgar.html

 

[I'm Supposn]

I tend to think a mixed economy with both generous welfare from government along with private market innovation seems to be pragmatic and viable. It captures more 'positive externalities' like education and healthcare than an exclusively private market and is more charitable. The slight problem I find with socialist thinking is that a free market isn't feudal. People are free to dollar vote and buy from cooperative businesses. Redistributive taxation seems to be working where it's tried compared to a collectivised communal sort of economy.

Michael McMahon, I've no disagreement with your post; private industry is not always the superior solution.
Outsourcing some specific government functions would be contrary to the public’s interest. Also, there are some government functions that can be outsourced, but government rather than private industry provides them in a superior manner.

Many other nations provide their populations Wi-Fi, medical insurance, railroads and other public transportation at lesser expense and in a manner superior to that of the United States. It’s nonsense to contend that private industry does or will perform every function in a manner superior to government. Respectfully, Supposn

 

[psikeyhackr]

True capitalism means that the government should be for sale.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The folks who expect us to work to age seventy and beyond, and the ones who won't hire us after age fifty
are the same people.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The folks who expect us to work to age seventy and beyond, and the ones who won't hire us after age fifty
are the same people.

Yep, which is why many choose to become self-employed and are grateful to have Social Security and Medicare.

 

[I'm Supposn]

Should people get healthcare according to their needs?

Should people be taxed according to their ability to pay?

Aociswundumho, regardless of whatever's a nation's economic policy, government subsidy of medical prevention and screening procedures are to their nation's net advantage.
I'm a proponent of federal subsidizing all, (government and non-government) qualified medical insurance policies. Among those qualifications would, at no addition to clients, provide for patients' described circumstances and conditions, the generally indicated medical screening and preventative procedures.

Reducing insurers' costs enable state insurance regulators to to lower their current maximum permitted rates for medical insurance. Lower rates would induce more young healthy people to purchase insurance, thus further reducing insurers' cost per client and enabling state price regulators to further reduce their states' maximum permitted rates.

Regarding this as proposing free rides to the wealthy, currently all of the wealthy purchase medical insurance. This proposed subsidy would be of benefit to all U.S. tax paying individuals or enterprises that also pay for medical insurance.
Respectfully, Supposn

 

[Michael McMahon]

"Rather than checks taking place along the Irish border, it was agreed any inspections and document checks would take place between Northern Ireland and Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) instead."
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53724381

Goods between Northern Ireland and the UK will already be naturally delayed by the mere existence of the Irish Sea. By contrast there's no delay in driving between the North and South of Ireland. Therefore the relative economic impact of a custom's check would be more severe between the Republic and the North than by the Irish Sea seeing as businesses in Ireland aren't prepared for delivery delays within the island. Another notion to consider is a one-way border where goods or passports would only be checked on one side. For example outgoing trade from unionists to Britain might not have to be as stringently checked as goods going in the opposite direction from the UK to Northern Ireland. Lastly a double border might be a tentative compromise to reduce tensions. This might mean a customs border in the Irish Sea and passport control between the North and South. The Republic wouldn't need to check passports on incoming traffic heading South seeing as British emigration to the EU doesn't appear to be a divisive factor. Therefore nationalists travelling south wouldn't be infringed on the first leg of their journey. Emigration from the EU to Britain is only relevant for foreign migrants travelling from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland.

"Trade between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland increased in the first four months of 2021 as companies in the Irish Republic look to sidestep customs checks on imports from Great Britain... Northern Ireland sold £6.6bn of goods to GB in 2018, compared with £3.2bn to Ireland and £2.1bn to the rest of the EU."
https://www.export.org.uk/news/5711...and-figures-show-as-firms-avoid-GB-checks.htm

 

[Lafayette]

What we have is consumerism.

What did Karl Marx say about Planned Obsolescence and the depreciation of durable consumer goods?

Economists do not mention NDP, Net Domestic Product. The world population has tripled since WWII and economists have been glorifying the production of under engineered consumer trash that increases cash flow.

What is NDP?
Can economists do algebra?

NDP = GDP - Dcap
Real NDP = GDP - (Dcap + Dcon)
Dcap = Depreciation of Capital Goods
Dcon = Depreciation of Consumer Goods

GDP = Grossly Distorted Propaganda

Then by the definition of Dcon, the Internet is to be depreciated because it exists since the 1990s?

Be careful of definitions and how they apply. Yes, there is considerable Dcon in any well-functioning economy. But one must be careful as to where they apply the definition of "depreciation of consumer goods".

And the definition of Dcap-captioned apparently forgot the word "services" because they have become a central part of any well-functioning economy. The production of consumer goods in the US (and Europe) having had a long trek to elsewhere. (Namely China.)

Employment in Manufacturing Industries in the US has plummeted to around 8% of total. And I'll bet it has become very High-tech in nature. See image here from Insider. (The image is not postable.)

Services-industries now account for most of the rest of "production" in the American economy ...