Misunderstanding Capitalism

[NWRatCon]

A working understanding of Capital, by Karl Marx, would also inform this discussion. Think we can expect that?

A central tenet of Marx is the alienation of the Worker from productivity - i.e., the theft of the value of his labor. Simplistic expressions of "capitalism" ignore this obvious reality, as well as my previously-mentioned issue of externalities, and the problem of "the tragedy of the commons". Also elided is the concept of surplus value.

So, I agree with this much of the OP: there is a misunderstanding of capitalism at work.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I actually started by reading "Wealth of Nations", which is not light reading, but very understandable. I actually read a lot of economics material, from Friedman to Piketty.

Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations is free for download in Project Gutenberg. If you search it you will find he wrote about education EIGHTY TIMES and mentioned "read, write and account" multiple times.

But what do we hear about Adam Smith?

Invisible Hand, Invisible Hand and Invisible Hand

Smith only used that term One Time.

England and the United States could have made accounting/finance mandatory in the schools since Sputnik. But notice that we never hear Capitalist propagandists or Socialist propagandists suggesting any such thing. Maybe everyone would notice that the depreciation of durable consumer goods disappears from the economy if they all had accounting in school.

 

[mrjurrs]

It was what I originally responded to you had you bothered to actually read it

From your source...
"Walmart U.S. Chief Executive John Furner said in a memo to staff that this marks the third investment the company has made in salaries in the past year. Walmart’s U.S. average hourly wage is now $16.40, he said."

I read it. That's how I know it wasn't talking about hourly wage earners.

 

[Crovax]

From your source...
"Walmart U.S. Chief Executive John Furner said in a memo to staff that this marks the third investment the company has made in salaries in the past year. Walmart’s U.S. average hourly wage is now $16.40, he said."

I read it. That's how I know it wasn't talking about hourly wage earners.

You literally can't read.

 

[Arlette]

The other day I was watching a YouTube video discussing a TV show. They claimed the show was anti-capitalism because it showed the government tricking/forcing some local people out of their land in order to hand it over to a company who would presumably strip mine it. That's not capitalism. Capitalism would be the company offering money for the land, and if the locals reject the offer, then that's the end of the story.

It seems people associate capitalism with any economic activity and with any private individual or firm making a profit. This is not so. Capitalism is simply when property is held and controlled in private hands. If I start a charity, solicit donations and then use the money to buy food and medicine for the poor, that's capitalism. If I own a piece of land and I make it a nature preserve, that's capitalism.

I often see criticisms of capitalism regarding crimes committed by wealthy people or firms to advance their interests. That's not capitalism, that's just a crime. If a company decides to cut costs so they can lower their prices below the competition that's capitalism. If a company decides to burn down the factory of their competition, that's a crime.

The latest academic trend is to say that slavery is somehow a part of capitalism. They talk about how slaves were considered "property" and were bought and sold and used to make the slave owner a profit. These superficial terms give the impression that slavery is akin to a free market firm doing business, but this is the opposite of the truth. The ultimate in private property is ownership of your own person. You cannot alienate (transfer control of) your body, so no one other than you can own yourself. Thus slavery is a violation of private property rights and not at all compatible with capitalism.

What other ways is capitalism mischaracterized?

Capitalism produces too much of the wrong stuff like huge trucks and video game systems that are obsolete in due time instead of what we really need. Public transit, affordable housing, universal health care. Capitalism overuses our resources and still fails to meet basic needs.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Capitalism produces too much of the wrong stuff like huge trucks and video game systems that are obsolete in due time instead of what we really need. Public transit, affordable housing, universal health care. Capitalism overuses our resources and still fails to meet basic needs.

Is Capitalism responsible for economists ignoring the depreciation of durable consumer goods?

Capitalism may be a rationalization for some humans doing stupid shit but abstractions do not do stupid shit.

When do the people bitching about Capitalism advocate for mandatory accounting/finance in the schools?

 

[mrjurrs]

You literally can't read.

I can read. You can't see context. In the same sentence..."has made in salaries".

 

[NWRatCon]

I can read. You can't see context. In the same sentence..."has made in salaries".

He literally can't think. Or make an actual argument. Poster boy for misunderstanding capitalism. Or virtually anything else.

 

[NWRatCon]

I realize the OP presenter has left the thread, but we can still discuss his errors in conception.

 

[Crovax]

I can read. You can't see context. In the same sentence..."has made in salaries".

What you get paid is called your salary. No matter if you are a salaried employee or an hourly employee.

This is we we don't let people who have never had a job run the economy.

 

[psikeyhackr]

A working understanding of Capital, by Karl Marx, would also inform this discussion. Think we can expect that?

What did Karl Marx say about Planned Obsolescence and the depreciation of durable consumer goods?

We could have made accounting mandatory in the schools since Sputnik. What did he think of that?

A 2003 article said that 5th graders could learn accounting as well as college students

Accounting: collegians vs 5th graders - UPI.com

A case study from Ball State University says gifted fifth graders are able to understand basic accounting nearly as well as college sophomores.

www.upi.com

 

[NWRatCon]

What did Karl Marx say about Planned Obsolescence and the depreciation of durable consumer goods?

I understand your obsession, but it is yours. Like the OP, there is far more to capitalism than accounting principles.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I understand your obsession, but it is yours. Like the OP, there is far more to capitalism than accounting principles.

LOL

People are taught to have peculiar attitudes about the relationship between mathematics and reality. Don't the capitalists have accounts for their assets and file depreciation allowances with the IRS for those assets that depreciate?

The Laws of Physics cannot tell the difference between a car that is leased and therefore a capital good and one that owned by a dumb consumer.

Capitalists just want the consumers to be stupid in a somewhat different way than the socialists want the workers to be stupid.

So the workers and the consumers are the same people, what does it matter?

 

[Kushinator]

When giant corporations capture government regulators in order to harm their smaller competitors.

Market concentration is a result of capitalism... it's not because regulators or whatever you're trying to peddle. The fact is, regulation (anti-trust for example) is key in preventing the inevitable push towards monopoly, duopoly, oligopoly, etc....

We saw it first hand during the lockdowns, when only big box stores were allowed to stay open, and with the eviction moratorium which crushed smaller landlords.

WTF are you talking about? Any company could stay open if they wanted to. There was no ordinance or mandate that required businesses to close. That is a bald-face lie. However, the impact of the pandemic simply made it less profitable to open shop for some operations, e.g. restaurants, bars, sporting events, conventions, etc.... Office buildings were literally abandoned for high speed internet.

I have no doubt there would have been some companies choosing not to close, no matter the risk it would have pushed on their community. But here's the thing. Most of society is vaccinated, and those that choose not to do so have only themselves to blame at this point. That wasn't the case in July 2020, or January 2021. Mitigating the spread until we had a way to deal with the disease was necessary.

Businesses that went under were primarily those who were operating at razor thin margins financed by low interest rates.

 

[mrjurrs]

What you get paid is called your salary. No matter if you are a salaried employee or an hourly employee.

This is we we don't let people who have never had a job run the economy.

And you believe 'salaries' can't be broken down into hourly wages? tff

 

[NWRatCon]

And you believe 'salaries' can't be broken down into hourly wages? tff

I did note that a certain poster has argued both sides of this argument, apparently to assert advantage in the argument based upon convenience rather than logic.

In converting wages to annual pay (i.e., making salaries and wages an apples to apples comparison), evaluators annualize income by assuming a 2080 hour work year. The reverse process is used to estimate hourly costs for salaried workers (i.e., annual pay and benefits is divided by 2080 to approximate an hourly wage, or "full time equivalent").

This works fairly well both ways because for salaried workers benefits like sick leave are included, whereas for wage employees it is unaffected (whether wages are paid for work or as sick leave benefits the hourly basis remains the same).

 

[NWRatCon]

Market concentration is a result of capitalism... it's not because regulators or whatever you're trying to peddle. The fact is, regulation (anti-trust for example) is key in preventing the inevitable push towards monopoly, duopoly, oligopoly, etc....

This is something that Adam Smith addressed, as well, in arguing the necessity of government regulation. These are lessons that are glibly ignored by dishonest advocates.

Businesses that went under were primarily those who were operating at razor thin margins financed by low interest rates.

The vast majority of new businesses fail, around 90%, 82% as the result of cash flow problems (essentially as you have argued). 18.2% of all US businesses fail on an annual basis. In order to make some of these spurious arguments, it is necessary for those making them to ignore such realities and blame it on something else. It is a habit of right wing advocates on most subjects. Pick a bogeyman... blame it on them/that, regardless of correlation or causation.

 

[NWRatCon]

Most people, when discussing capitalism, really mean "market capitalism" or a "(relatively) free market economy". The distinction is relevant, and particularly important, when discussing participants in the global economy.

"A capitalist economy and a free market economy are two types of economic systems. Often the terms are used interchangeably, especially in casual parlance. But, while they have overlapping qualities, the two are not quite the same thing." How Is a Capitalist System Different Than a Free Market System? (Investopedia).

"Capitalist and free-market systems do spring from the same economic soil, so to speak: the law of supply and demand, which becomes the basis to determine the price and production of goods and services.

But they refer to different things. Capitalism is focused on the creation of wealth and ownership of capital and factors of production, whereas a free market system is focused on the exchange of wealth or goods and services." "(I left the links in, in case anyone wants to explore more.)

I make this observation because much of the global market is generally a free market, but not all the participants are capitalists, and some of the purportedly capitalist participants are really state actors, even if operated in a capitalist form (e.g. Russian oligarchs; Chinese state companies; Arab sovereign wealth funds). Some state actors also manipulate the markets openly (e.g. OPEC, European Union).

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

The other day I was watching a YouTube video discussing a TV show. They claimed the show was anti-capitalism because it showed the government tricking/forcing some local people out of their land in order to hand it over to a company who would presumably strip mine it. That's not capitalism. Capitalism would be the company offering money for the land, and if the locals reject the offer, then that's the end of the story.

It seems people associate capitalism with any economic activity and with any private individual or firm making a profit. This is not so. Capitalism is simply when property is held and controlled in private hands. If I start a charity, solicit donations and then use the money to buy food and medicine for the poor, that's capitalism. If I own a piece of land and I make it a nature preserve, that's capitalism.

I often see criticisms of capitalism regarding crimes committed by wealthy people or firms to advance their interests. That's not capitalism, that's just a crime. If a company decides to cut costs so they can lower their prices below the competition that's capitalism. If a company decides to burn down the factory of their competition, that's a crime.

The latest academic trend is to say that slavery is somehow a part of capitalism. They talk about how slaves were considered "property" and were bought and sold and used to make the slave owner a profit. These superficial terms give the impression that slavery is akin to a free market firm doing business, but this is the opposite of the truth. The ultimate in private property is ownership of your own person. You cannot alienate (transfer control of) your body, so no one other than you can own yourself. Thus slavery is a violation of private property rights and not at all compatible with capitalism.

What other ways is capitalism mischaracterized?

Capitalism, as the name implies, is all about investing capital with the expectation of a return on that investment.

When you invest in a politician, you can then leverage that investment to kick people off of land that you want to strip mine.

That's capitalism.

There is nothing inherent or unique to capitalism that implies inalienable ownership of one's own body. Perhaps you are conflating the two because you personally believe in bodily sovereignty, and also believe that capitalism is the bee's knees, but there is nothing actually connecting the two besides a vague notion of "property" and the fact that you like them both. The concept of property is not unique to capitalism. Nor is the concept of self-ownership.

Purchasing slaves with an expectation of a return on investment from the ownership of human capital would definitely be a capital investment.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The other day I was watching a YouTube video discussing a TV show. They claimed the show was anti-capitalism because it showed the government tricking/forcing some local people out of their land in order to hand it over to a company who would presumably strip mine it. That's not capitalism. Capitalism would be the company offering money for the land, and if the locals reject the offer, then that's the end of the story.

It seems people associate capitalism with any economic activity and with any private individual or firm making a profit. This is not so. Capitalism is simply when property is held and controlled in private hands. If I start a charity, solicit donations and then use the money to buy food and medicine for the poor, that's capitalism. If I own a piece of land and I make it a nature preserve, that's capitalism.

I often see criticisms of capitalism regarding crimes committed by wealthy people or firms to advance their interests. That's not capitalism, that's just a crime. If a company decides to cut costs so they can lower their prices below the competition that's capitalism. If a company decides to burn down the factory of their competition, that's a crime.

The latest academic trend is to say that slavery is somehow a part of capitalism. They talk about how slaves were considered "property" and were bought and sold and used to make the slave owner a profit. These superficial terms give the impression that slavery is akin to a free market firm doing business, but this is the opposite of the truth. The ultimate in private property is ownership of your own person. You cannot alienate (transfer control of) your body, so no one other than you can own yourself. Thus slavery is a violation of private property rights and not at all compatible with capitalism.

What other ways is capitalism mischaracterized?

Dollar chasing is evil IMO because, invariably, at some point the dollar will be placed above human lives (animal and plant lives too) and death occurs out of a concern and priority of acquiring dollars.
A good example real quick is the US system of its health insurance. In a perfect world the onus would be best possible patient outcome, regardless of cost, and every citizen have access to universal healthcare. What could be more ideal than that?
In reality: in the US the onus is put on making sure that the insurance companies can turn a buck first and foremost. If a treatment can be denied or a sick patient dropped in the name of "profitability", the company benefits financially. This becomes the goal rather than best possible patient outcome.
I'm not sure what all the answers are, but dollar chasing isnt any sort of anything to aspire to.
As a form of barter you need some form of currency, thats a fact imo and theres nothing inherently evil in that, but the pursuit of money and materialism is far to prvelant in American society IMO. Its superficial and fake. And very harmful to the earth.

 

[What if...?]

Who tf cares? If you believe you are underpaid, then quit go work somewhere else. If no other business will pay you more, then the company you are working for is providing you with your best option.

And if it’s a small town it’s really easy to coordinate wages between businesses.

 

[aociswundumho]

And if it’s a small town it’s really easy to coordinate wages between businesses.

No, it isn't, even in small town, because there is no way for all of the businesses to effectively monitor each other.

 

[What if...?]

Walmart’s U.S. average hourly wage is now $16.40

Walmart hikes hourly pay by $1 for more than 550,000 workers ahead of the holidays

Walmart said Thursday that it is raising the hourly wages for more than 565,000 store workers by at least $1.

www.cnbc.com

Paying an entry level worker $16.40 is "fascist"?

What is the correct hourly wage for a job that requires no education or experience?

Enough for a person to live on if it’s full time?

 

[NWRatCon]

And if it’s a small town it’s really easy to coordinate wages between businesses.

You're trying to explain logic to someone who cannot accept it. (I just saw his nonsense response, to. Made me laugh.)

 

[HangLow]

Dollar chasing is evil IMO because, invariably, at some point the dollar will be placed above human lives (animal and plant lives too) and death occurs out of a concern and priority of acquiring dollars.
A good example real quick is the US system of its health insurance. In a perfect world the onus would be best possible patient outcome, regardless of cost, and every citizen have access to universal healthcare. What could be more ideal than that?
In reality: in the US the onus is put on making sure that the insurance companies can turn a buck first and foremost. If a treatment can be denied or a sick patient dropped in the name of "profitability", the company benefits financially. This becomes the goal rather than best possible patient outcome.
I'm not sure what all the answers are, but dollar chasing isnt any sort of anything to aspire to.
As a form of barter you need some form of currency, thats a fact imo and theres nothing inherently evil in that, but the pursuit of money and materialism is far to prvelant in American society IMO. Its superficial and fake. And very harmful to the earth.

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