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Minuteman Project Saves Life

RightinNYC

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http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/border/68659.php

Wanted to see what you guys thought about this whole plan.

Basic Background: There's a group of people who are sick of the multitudes of illegal immigrants coming into the US from Mexico, and who think the Border Patrol is doing a horrible job. So they gathered up, and are patrolling sections of the border to observe and report on.

Proponents: Claim that this peaceful observance will bring attention to the fact that the government is doing an inadequate job of protecting our border. They are being non-violent, and only observing and reporting.

Opponents: Claim that they are just vigilantes, more likely to incite violence than cure any problems. Claim that they are getting in the way of the border patrol, and that once they started, they would likely cause significant problems with any illegals they met.

Well, it started a while ago, and what happened?


Man found tired, thirsty; Minuteman Project helps

Minuteman Project volunteers helped an illegal entrant in distress late Friday. The incident was the first documented encounter between the volunteers and Mexican nationals sneaking across the border, officials said.
The incident happened around midnight when a tired and thirsty illegal entrant who'd been separated from his group approached Minuteman volunteers at the Bible College in Palominas, said U.S. Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame.
 

shuamort

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Aww. Ya beat me to it, I was thinking of starting a thread about the minutemen too. Here's the groundwork I had so far:
President Bush calls them vigilantes and the Mexican government has warned it will file civil suits against any who lays a finger on Mexican nationals during the exercise.
Organizer James Gilchrist said Sunday that volunteers had reported 118 illegal entrants to the U.S. Border Patrol. There is no way to confirm that, because the agency's Tucson Sector says it doesn't keep track of Minuteman callers separately from normal calls from citizens about illegal border crossers.
"We've been repeatedly accused of being people who are taking the law into our own hands," said Gilchrist, 56, of Aliso Viejo, Calif. "That is an outright bogus statement. We are going down there to assist law enforcement."
What Minuteman volunteers have succeeded in doing is setting off false alarms by tripping ground sensors on the border, he said.

"We're having to work around them instead of concentrating on the actual border where we need to work," Adame said.
Officials fear the Minuteman patrols could cause more trouble than they prevent. At least some of the volunteers plan to arm themselves during the 24-hour desert patrols. Many are untrained and have little or no experience in confronting illegal border crossings.

"Any time there are firearms and you're out in the middle of no-man's land in difficult terrain, it's a dangerous setting," said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

"The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation," he said. "Ordinary Americans are not. So there's a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation."

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there's a couple of "bad apples" who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.
Here's a link to the Minuteman Project as well. And some info that is pertinent like this statement:
The Minuteman Project has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from separatists, racists or supremacy groups or individuals, no matter what their race, color, or creed.
And
We will seal the border by our presence, but will not violate anyone's civil rights, and will not abuse anyone from any country. By legal means we will observe ILLEGAL immigrants on trails heading north. We will alert border patrol to the location of illegals, and wait for USBP to come and pick them up. We will follow illegal aliens from a distance and continue spotting them until authorities answer our cell phone and/or back-pack radio calls. All spotting, calls for assistance, and the response from the appropriate authorities will be chronicled and provided to any media representative.

Standing, camping and patrolling at the border fence (four-strands of barb wire) we will be a presence that most illegals will not brush aside and pass by to enter the USA. We will be following the experienced lead of groups like Chris Simcox of Civil Home Defense. They have led to the arrest of over 5000 illegal aliens and led authorities to over 8000 pounds of drugs in the last 4 years.
 

RightinNYC

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Yea, at first it seemed like it was a bad idea, but it's been working well so far.

That claim about the sensors seems like sour eggs to me by the border patrol.
 

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RightatNYU said:
Yea, at first it seemed like it was a bad idea, but it's been working well so far.

That claim about the sensors seems like sour eggs to me by the border patrol.
Historically, Law Enforcement hates it when citizens get involved in their business. Oh they say they like these neighborhood watch programs. Often they assign an officer to be a liaison to the group. But trust me, I have some experience working with LE and they hate it citizens get involved with their work. They see it as a no win.

Personally if all these people are sneaking over our borders and the Gov. can’t do anything about it- why not let these citizens patrol?

 

GarzaUK

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Pacridge said:
Historically, Law Enforcement hates it when citizens get involved in their business. Oh they say they like these neighborhood watch programs. Often they assign an officer to be a liaison to the group. But trust me, I have some experience working with LE and they hate it citizens get involved with their work. They see it as a no win.

Personally if all these people are sneaking over our borders and the Gov. can’t do anything about it- why not let these citizens patrol?

In the UK I've never heard of these neighbourhood watches or viglantes. Is crime really that bad over there? Or you guys just paranoid?
 

RightinNYC

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GarzaUK said:
In the UK I've never heard of these neighbourhood watches or viglantes. Is crime really that bad over there? Or you guys just paranoid?

Neighborhood watches are just programs set up where parents get together and rotate shifts of making sure that there are no problems on the streets. It's useful in keeping things under control.

In this specific case, it's because we have a border with mexico that is thousands of miles long, and has minimal protection.
 

RightinNYC

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Pacridge said:
Historically, Law Enforcement hates it when citizens get involved in their business. Oh they say they like these neighborhood watch programs. Often they assign an officer to be a liaison to the group. But trust me, I have some experience working with LE and they hate it citizens get involved with their work. They see it as a no win.

Personally if all these people are sneaking over our borders and the Gov. can’t do anything about it- why not let these citizens patrol?

Exactly. It seems like a ******* contest to me. The border patrol wants to hide the fact that is is horribly ineffective, to the tune of 10 million illegals (and that only counts how many stayed).
 

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I give these folks a double thumbs up.

Unfortunatly, I think it will wear out on the volunteers before anything is done.
 

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We will follow illegal aliens from a distance and continue spotting them until authorities answer our cell phone and/or back-pack radio calls.
Mexican hunting, eh? I guess the novelty of the mourning-dove season has already worn off.

Seriously, I've next to no opinion on this issue. I just have to comment, though, that illegal immigrants do play a vital role in the American economy, not least up here in the Breadbasket/Midwest rural region. I wonder what long-term effects this Minuteman project will have on the sort of agricultural jobs that those illegal aliens tend to take, and how much of that will spread to affect the rest of the nation. Any thoughts?

(Note: I'm not condoning illegal immigration at all -- just saying that it exists and that they form a component of our economy.)

:) SE
 

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SpheryEyne said:
Seriously, I've next to no opinion on this issue. I just have to comment, though, that illegal immigrants do play a vital role in the American economy, not least up here in the Breadbasket/Midwest rural region. I wonder what long-term effects this Minuteman project will have on the sort of agricultural jobs that those illegal aliens tend to take, and how much of that will spread to affect the rest of the nation. Any thoughts?

(Note: I'm not condoning illegal immigration at all -- just saying that it exists and that they form a component of our economy.)

:) SE
This project will have minimal to no impact. Currently they have only stopped 5000 of the 100,000's that pass the border. They are only watching one area.

I agree that illegals have a role in our society. Unfortunatly, it has promoted laziness. May of the jobs that youngers should be doing are pushed off due to capitolism and simple manpower that the typical US citizen refuses to do.

Slowing or even stopping this would again help support all of our own folks. This would again create a bottum to top economy rather than just high end and poverty. When the demand goes up, so does the salary.

It's interesting to note that the same folks that complain about our economy and jobs are the same folks that many times believe in open borders and/or refuse to do anything about this very important issue.
 

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I personally would like to see these volunteers stop their job and return home, but only when our current Administration pays attention to the facts that our boarder patrol is downright terrible.

A good group of boarder patrols are far more reliable than volunteers who have done this because they are fed up with these immigrants.

True that these people do play a big role in our economy but my area (North Carolina, Research Triangle Park) is becoming over-run by Mexicans. We've had to spend money till the point where our county is in the negatives, on building more schools, hiring more Spanish-English teachers, and other unneeded things.

I find it disrespectful for a person to illegally cross a border, ignore registration and all the other legal processes for one to become an American citizen.

In their defense, it is fact that illegal aliens are more consistent on their taxes then that of the naturally born citizens, this is due to the idea that if they pay their taxes then will be able to blend in. So our government knows that these illegal aliens are recorded for (because of tax payments) but they do nothing.. I still ponder whether it is better to have alot more people with more tax revenue, then to have higher costing taxes but fewer illegal immigrants.
 

RightinNYC

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Arch Enemy said:
A good group of boarder patrols are far more reliable than volunteers who have done this because they are fed up with these immigrants.
The whole point of the excursion isn't to catch people, its to raise attention about the problem.

Even so, a group of dedicated citizens acting within their legal rights is almost always more effective than a group of gov't employees who don't really work to fix the problem.
 

shuamort

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RightatNYU said:
The whole point of the excursion isn't to catch people, its to raise attention about the problem.

Even so, a group of dedicated citizens acting within their legal rights is almost always more effective than a group of gov't employees who don't really work to fix the problem.
So what's your solution? Raise taxes to have more employees on the border? Or have, as President Bush has called them, vigilantes patrolling the border?
 

26 X World Champs

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RightatNYU said:
Yea, at first it seemed like it was a bad idea, but it's been working well so far.

That claim about the sensors seems like sour eggs to me by the border patrol.
Explain? All that is happening is that the illegals are moving down the road and entering somewhere else.

Scary as it is, I agree with President Bush! :doh
 

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shuamort said:
So what's your solution? Raise taxes to have more employees on the border? Or have, as President Bush has called them, vigilantes patrolling the border?
How about we start enforcing our own country's laws and prosecute and deport the illegals we find even now?

That might send a message.
 

RightinNYC

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26 X World Champs said:
Explain? All that is happening is that the illegals are moving down the road and entering somewhere else.

Scary as it is, I agree with President Bush! :doh
You and I are talking about immigration policy, aren't we? It seems to me like they're accomplishing what they're trying to do.
 

shuamort

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RightatNYU said:
How about we start enforcing our own country's laws and prosecute and deport the illegals we find even now?

That might send a message.
Yeah, there does seem to be a lot of look-the-other-way-ism going down there. And President Bush's amnesty offering only sweetened the pot to keep the traffic up.

Back to the MinuteMen, I've got a feeling that they're not taking this very seriously:
Authorities determined Thursday three volunteers involved in a civilian project to watch the border and report illegal crossers had an illegal immigrant pose for a flippant photograph but did not hold him against his will.

The Mexican man had told sheriff's deputies he was detained and forced to pose for a picture holding a T-shirt with a mocking slogan. A review of a 15-minute videotape provided by Bryan Barton, one of the three volunteers, showed the T-shirt the man was holding read: ''Bryan Barton caught an illegal alien and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.'' Barton was wearing an identical shirt.
:roll:
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Explain? All that is happening is that the illegals are moving down the road and entering somewhere else.

Scary as it is, I agree with President Bush! :doh
You agree with with President Bush on Something? I thought all liberals were unable to look at what he does logically and asses it on a per policy, per incident basis? I thought no matter what he did, liberals would by agaisnt it. Has your brain been taken over be Area 51 aliens?
 
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RightinNYC

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Check this out Parcridge.
I disagree with Bush. Maybe the only time.

Bush, however, did not the minutemen were vigilantees. He just said that he didn't want vigilantees patroling our borders. But everyone assumes that he was talking about the minutemen. Which he probably was. I just wanted to clear that up.

I have heard that the border patrol was happy to get some help. It is not that they are lazy, just that it is such a big job for so few people. There is nothing wrong with a group of people trying to help the gov't.
 

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Bush Decries "Vigilantes," For Reasonable Immigration Policy(W Calls Minutemen "Vigilantes")
Washington, Mar 24 : President George W Bush has decried efforts by armed private groups to act as self-appointed policemen to bar illegal Mexican immigrants coming into the United States, and pledged to push for a "reasonable" immigration policy.

More than 1,000 people--including 30 pilots with their private planes--have volunteered for what they call their "Minuteman Project", seeking to monitor the movement of illegal aliens during April and report them to the Border patrol.

Bush said after yesterday's summit with Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at Baylor University that he finds such actions unacceptable.

"I am against vigilantes in the united States of America," Bush said at a joint press conference.

"I am for enforcing the law in a rational way." The Minuteman Project, The Washington Times notes, was born out of a long-held perception among many U.S. Residents that more Border Patrol agents are needed to handle the flow of illegal immigrants.
Here's more from Whitehouse.gov:

Q Mexico's President Fox announced during his news conference that our border fence between San Diego and Tijuana, in his words, must be demolished. My first question: During their subsequent Waco summit, did President Bush in any way reply to this Fox demand, which Senator Kyl of Arizona called, downright insulting, other than Mr. Bush denouncing the American Minutemen as "vigilantes"?

MR. McCLELLAN: Les, a couple things. First of all, this goes to a much larger issue, this question, and the larger issue is making sure that we have a safe, orderly and humane migration system. We have worked closely with Mexico on issues relating to our borders. There is more that we can do to control our borders, and the Department of Homeland Security is working to do that every day. We have an increase in the number of agents along the border, they're working to address the situation in some of the areas where you're referencing, as well.

And the President put forward an initiative, his temporary worker initiative, to address some of these issues, because we have a problem in this country where now I think it's some 10 million undocumented immigrants working in this country. And they oftentimes are coming here simply to support their families back home. And they're also filling jobs that otherwise are not being filled by American citizens. So there is an economic need that we can address.

And there is also -- by addressing this situation, the President believes we can do a better job of enforcing our borders and going after those who are coming here for the wrong reason -- whether it's terrorists or people intent on criminal activity. This will free up our border patrol and border agents to go after those who should not be coming into this country in the first place.

Q The Washington Times has listed nine countries who have either built or are building border fences. Has President Fox, to your knowledge, condemned any border fence, beside our border fence? And why is denouncing the Arizona Minutemen any better than denouncing neighborhood crime watchers?

MR. McCLELLAN: A couple of things. I mean, the President spoke to this issue last week and I think he addressed it very clearly for you all.

In terms of President Fox, I'm not going to try to comment for him -- you might want to direct those questions to his office. But I know that the Department of Homeland Security, regarding the question you're bringing up, tomorrow is going to be having an announcement in Tucson, Arizona, about an initiative they're undertaking along the Arizona border to better control the border there.

In terms of the issue of the Minutemen that you bring up, again, the President spoke to that issue last week. And it's one thing if people are working along the border, simply to report suspicious activity, and that activity should be reported to the proper authorities -- the Department of Homeland Security officials, who are there to enforce our borders. If people are operating outside of the law, that cannot be tolerated. That's a different --

Q Well, that's my point. That's what they're doing -- they're neighborhood crime watch.

MR. McCLELLAN: Hang on. Hang on. That's a different matter. People cannot take things into their own hands. But if they see suspicious activity, they should report that suspicious activity to the proper authorities and --

Q And that doesn't make them vigilantes, does it?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, if you're talking about a group of armed, untrained individuals roaming around the desert, that would be something that would concern us and it would increase the chance that someone could get hurt. And we don't want people operating outside the law -- the President made that very clear last week. So if you're talking about people reporting suspicious activity, that's one thing. If you're talking about people operating outside the law, that's another matter and it's one that cannot be allowed to happen.
 

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shuamort said:
Update on this:

Border Watcher Axed Over Migrant Photo

TUCSON, Ariz. — A civilian border watch group said Friday that it had dismissed a volunteer who had had a suspected illegal immigrant pose for a mocking photograph.

Organizers of the Minuteman Project said that although authorities determined the man had not illegally detained the man, he still violated the group's procedures. They added that the volunteer had given the man $20 and fed him during Wednesday's encounter.

"The volunteer's actions were admirable, justified and undeniably humane," said Chris Simcox, a project official. "But unfortunately they jeopardized our established procedures and overall purpose of passively monitoring the border."
 

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Illegal immigration is out of control in this country. These illegals have overwhelmed certain areas and are causing them to have to build more schools, they are closing down hospitals because they don't pay for their healthcare, bringing 3rd world diseases that have long since been erradicated here, they are raising health insurance and other costs for us, they are taking jobs from people and driving down all our wages, they are eating off social welfare benefits, they are refusing to assimilate into our culture and 1st world lifestyle and some are resistent to even learning English. I sympathize with these people that they are poor, but that doesn't give them the right to illegally enter a country and parasite off its citizens for benefits. We are importing poverty and ignorance which is never good. We have 14-18 million Americans without jobs, the illegals are not needed. It is just the greed of employers hiring them for lower wages. We have our government outsourcing our jobs overseas and at the same time allowing these illegals to enter the country and take our jobs at home. It's not right to American citizens. It's time to stop subsidizing Mexico's poverty and tell them to get their own matters straightened. We need more border security now, to protect us not only from illegals but terrorists. Congress passed a bill for the creation of 2,000 new border patrol agents for the next 5 years that was recommended in the 9/11 Security report. President Bush signed it but refused to fund it. He funded only 210 more agents, which is woefully short of what we need. Just talk to citizens on the border who are vandalized by these illegals on a regular basis. We could be doing more to protect the border and its high time it gets done. God bless these Minutemen for bringing attention to the issue. Hopefully they will raise public awareness to the point where our government has to do something about this. A nation can not thrive without protecting its borders. It can't thrive with an open borders policy. You need orderly immigration.
 

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Doesn't matter if Bush likes them being there or not. The citizens of the United States have a constitutional right under the second amendment to form a militia. The minuteman project is a militia being used to raise awareness of the problem on the border.
 
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