Minimum Wage vs Living Wage

[cpwill]

Military pay is outpacing civilians'. Is it justified? | Military | pilotonline.com

:lol: so you have no response. You have a picture of a clown and the point that a SNCO with a family living off base makes more than an unmarried junior E3 in Iraq :lol:


Hey - you know who else makes more than MW? Other managers. :lol:

 

[ocean515]

I did not say you did.I just showed the historical level of REAL MW, showing that it declined in REAL terms since 1968. Your question was how were unions influencing MW, obviously, not much. Not even a picture got that across.
So lets be clear, since '68 MW declined and it has only been in the last few years where populist/grassroot movements has caused MW legislation to start to cause MW to regain a level not seen since 1968.

I would not expect anything other than you to admit to not being able to understand a simple point about REAL MW levels (a VERY simple economic concept) and then run away from the debate.

:roll:

My posts were in reply to this statement.

"No reasonable person is saying the MW *has* to be $15/hr."​

Clearly, you are unable to address the point I made, and chose to invent some narrative that has ZERO relationship to my posts.

This is your MO and the reason I have had you on the ignore list.

I'm not "running away", I'm just avoiding a colossal waste of time with someone incapable of reasonable, and rational debate.

:2wave:

 

[Gimmesometruth]

:lol: so you have no response. You have a picture of a clown and the point that a SNCO with a family living off base makes more than an unmarried junior E3 in Iraq :lol:

It is a more complete and honest argument than saying that Marines don't work as hard because of the benefits they receive, that they make less than MW, and water is compensation package for civilian MW employees.

 

[cpwill]

It is a more complete and honest argument

That at least, is correct. A picture of a clown is definitely a more complete and honest argument than the one you are now making.

than saying that Marines don't work as hard because of the benefits they receive

:raises eyebrow: Who is arguing that Marines don't work as hard because of the benefits that they receive.

that they make less than MW

:shrug: some do. I did.

and water is compensation package for civilian MW employees.

I had to score it for me. If you want to insist that every single benefit offered be scored in order to try to pull total compensation for Jr military membership above MW, well, then you don't get to complain that such benefits exist in the civilian world as well.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

:roll:

My posts were in reply to this statement.

"No reasonable person is saying the MW *has* to be $15/hr."​

Clearly, you are unable to address the point I made, and chose to invent some narrative that has ZERO relationship to my posts.

This is your MO and the reason I have had you on the ignore list.

I'm not "running away", I'm just avoiding a colossal waste of time with someone incapable of reasonable, and rational debate.

:2wave:

The point you made that I addressed was:

How does your graph address the relationship and influence of Public Sector Union activity on the politicians who are passing the legislation?

If you want to argue that you are confused about what point YOU MADE that I was addressing, fine, you lost track of what point I was addressing. Let me know if you become less confused.

 

[jet57]

I didn't know it was a businesses duty to pay people more than their skills and market value are worth.

THAT is such a specious argument. The person doing the work sets the scale.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

That at least, is correct. A picture of a clown is definitely a more complete and honest argument than the one you are now making.

The clown....is your argument, the argument that water is a compensation package for MW workers.

:raises eyebrow: Who is arguing that Marines don't work as hard because of the benefits that they receive.

If you want to go back and review our debate, you are free to do so.

:shrug: some do. I did.

No, you did not. For a guy that has previously used data to show the levels of benefits for min wage workers, I find your lack of honestly analyzing military benefits completely hypocritical. But then, everyone has their reasons for deception, yours is obvious.

I had to score it for me. If you want to insist that every single benefit offered be scored in order to try to pull total compensation for Jr military membership above MW, well, then you don't get to complain that such benefits exist in the civilian world as well.

LOL...who is complaining? I just pointed out that NONE (EITC, MEDICAID, SNAP, TANF....) are AUTOMATIC, they are underutilized, whereas they are automatic by and large for service personnel. You are admitting that you are not scoring accurately, so stop clowning around.

 

[cpwill]

The clown....is your argument, the argument that water is a compensation package for MW workers.

If it has to count for me, why shouldn't it count equally when doing apples to apples comparisons.

If you want to go back and review our debate, you are free to do so.

Sure. I've read it. Point out where anyone argued that Marines don't work as hard because of the benefits they receive.

No, you did not.

:shrug: yes I did, and I have given you the numbers and the math. You argued that "well, if you count the non-pay benefits it comes out to more than minimum wage", and so I went back in and added those. Adding in my water consumption (paid for by my employer) finally got me above Federal Minimum Wage.

For a guy that has previously used data to show the levels of benefits for min wage workers, I find your lack of honestly analyzing military benefits completely hypocritical

That's funny. I find your refusal to admit that you were wrong when you tried to argue with me about my pay to be as hypocritical as when you try to reference benefits that military members receive as "compensation" while denying that such benefits can also be counted for civilian employees.

. But then, everyone has their reasons for deception, yours is obvious.

:lol: and what is that? Huzzah! E3's don't make much! Woohoo! :roll:

LOL...who is complaining?

You are. See first point above.

I just pointed out that NONE (EITC, MEDICAID, SNAP, TANF....) are AUTOMATIC,

Actually, since EITC is part of your tax bill, it is automatic. That being said, however, you were addressing portions of employer-provided compensation packages, not social safety net programs.

 

[jaeger19]

Most cities do not allow landlords to rent at more than 2 adults per bedroom....but then, survival for you is to live illegally......remember?

I wasn't living illegally.

But illegal immigrants are a good point. They come here for jobs that are often minimum wage.. or even lower. And they not only survive but thrive. And because they are illegal.. they are reluctant to go to the government for government services.. which defeats the argument that the only way a person can survive on minimum wage is if the government helps.

 

[cpwill]

No, you did not.

:shrug: yes I did, and I have given you the numbers and the math. You argued that "well, if you count the non-pay benefits it comes out to more than minimum wage", and so I went back in and added those. Adding in my water consumption (paid for by my employer) finally got me above Federal Minimum Wage.

Actually I looked this up, and it turns out that I significantly overestimated the cost of individual health insurance. So no, it turns out, even if you add that in, along with all the other items, I don't get to Minimum Wage while serving in Iraq.

 

[cpwill]

that they make less than MW

some do. I did.

No, you did not. For a guy that has previously used data to show the levels of benefits for min wage workers, I find your lack of honestly analyzing military benefits completely hypocritical. But then, everyone has their reasons for deception, yours is obvious.

Since you referenced the data:



There you go. Those are the figures and the formulas (below). Feel free to check the math .

 

[Absentglare]

Actually I looked this up, and it turns out that I significantly overestimated the cost of individual health insurance. So no, it turns out, even if you add that in, along with all the other items, I don't get to Minimum Wage while serving in Iraq.

If our leadership gave a **** about our troops, we'd be more reticent to wage war, we'd treat our troops better when they get home, and we'd have compensation that better reflects the value of service.

We can thank both parties for that.

 

[Critter7r]

Why is a minimum or even a living wage a sensible idea? It diverts costs to functions that do not produce the income to pay for the wage ...

Wait, what?? That MW laborer IS the function that produces the income.

... and reduces the felt motivation to strive for better employment, where the labor would produce more benefit.

If everyone with "bad employment" (i.e. MW jobs) achieved "better employment", there wouldn't be anyone left to do those "lesser" jobs.

And why should an employer be forced to pay for something that the voters want in stead of the voters putting their money, where their mouths are?

If MW increases lead to higher prices, voters will be doing exactly that.

Minimum income addresses both drawbacks and solves the cost question of social bureaucracies.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[cpwill]

If our leadership gave a **** about our troops, we'd be more reticent to wage war, we'd treat our troops better when they get home, and we'd have compensation that better reflects the value of service.

We can thank both parties for that.

Hm. Well, I think we need to modernize compensation, to be sure. Promotion, too (right now the way to get promoted isn't "be the best at your job" but rather "stay in long enough"). The changes in the retirement program to include things like a TSP-match are good, and they reduce the out-year strains on the DOD budget, ensuring that retirees 30 years from now don't take money that would otherwise go to support the guys downrange. For raw pay in general, I think we should focus on the junior enlisted ranks, rather than even, across-the-board increases, and perhaps increases in things like Separations or Danger Pay.

 

[Critter7r]

I wasn't living illegally.

But illegal immigrants are a good point. They come here for jobs that are often minimum wage.. or even lower. And they not only survive but thrive. And because they are illegal.. they are reluctant to go to the government for government services.. which defeats the argument that the only way a person can survive on minimum wage is if the government helps.

You know what else they're reluctant to do that helps them save money and thrive? Buy car insurance or registration, and health care, and pay taxes. Things which cost legal MW workers hundreds of dollars each month. I know, I know ... those poor people should ride the bus and get on the Exchange for their reduced cost healthcare.

 

[jaeger19]

You know what else they're reluctant to do that helps them save money and thrive? Buy car insurance or registration, and health care, and pay taxes. Things which cost legal MW workers hundreds of dollars each month. I know, I know ... those poor people should ride the bus and get on the Exchange for their reduced cost healthcare.

To some degree that's true.. Though that's not restricted to illegal immigrants. Plenty of legal MW workers survive without healthcare, car insurance or registration, and pay little taxes.

The point is.. people still survive on minimum wage. Its why illegal immigrants flock to the US.

 

[Critter7r]

To some degree that's true.. Though that's not restricted to illegal immigrants. Plenty of legal MW workers survive without healthcare, car insurance or registration, and pay little taxes.

The point is.. people still survive on minimum wage. Its why illegal immigrants flock to the US.

While I agree with the idea that it's possible to have a not-terrible existence on MW, we shouldn't be striving to allow our own citizens to live only as well as the illegals that stream here because their own country is complete ****.

 

[jaeger19]

While I agree with the idea that it's possible to have a not-terrible existence on MW, we shouldn't be striving to allow our own citizens to live only as well as the illegals that stream here because their own country is complete ****.

We also should not use emotional rhetoric to push a raise of the minimum wage that will hurt our own citizens either.

 

[Critter7r]

We also should not use emotional rhetoric to push a raise of the minimum wage that will hurt our own citizens either.

The MW hasn't been increased since 2009. Allowing for inflation, the MW has effectively dropped to about $6.50 since then.

How about let's bump it to $10 and index it to reset every year or every other year to inflation, or some portion of inflation.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I didn't know it was a businesses duty to pay people more than their skills and market value are worth.

It's not. I'm opposed to the minimum wage. But if businesses won't pay workers a living wage, somebody has to. That's where I think the universal basic income fits in.

 

[Renae]

It's not. I'm opposed to the minimum wage. But if businesses won't pay workers a living wage, somebody has to. That's where I think the universal basic income fits in.

It's always easy to feel better demanding other people pay for your guilty assuaging.

Universal Basic Income -- UBI Is a Terrible Idea | National Review

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

It's always easy to feel better demanding other people pay for your guilty assuaging.

It's not guilt, it's survival. If you can't survive on a full-time job, you need help. And if most people can't survive on the full-time jobs available to them, the whole country is going down the tubes.

You people are getting all ****ing self-righteous about committing suicide.

 

[Renae]

It's not guilt, it's survival. If you can't survive on a full-time job, you need help. And if most people can't survive on the full-time jobs available to them, the whole country is going down the tubes.

You people are getting all ****ing self-righteous about committing suicide.

Self Righteous? "I demand you pay for other people cause I don't think they can survive without GOVERNMENT"

The world is always ending for those that need others to provide and care for them. Thanks for letting us know you need others to care for you, to coddle you, to make life "fair" for you.

 

[Neomalthusian]

It's not. I'm opposed to the minimum wage. But if businesses won't pay workers a living wage, somebody has to.

No they don't. A "living wage" isn't even a thing. It doesn't exist. It's just a feel-good phrase liberals made up. People sell labor. Some people sell at break-even, or even at a loss, in some cases. It's not sustainable to sell at break-even, at-cost, or at a loss, but people do it because no one wants what they're selling at a price they'd rather get for it. The concept of "a living wage" is fabricated, and no one "has to" pay them this made-up thing.

That's where I think the universal basic income fits in.

The leaders of our central bank have called it an option and a potentially valuable tool to do that, but they maintain it should be as a last resort economic rescue mission type of maneuver. Like a SHTF end-game strategy. Even Japan's Abe is disinclined to deploy this strategy, and we all know the situation they're in is a lot more critical than the one in the U.S. So are they all just wrong? Why do you suppose they are so avoidant of this, in all but the absolute worst of circumstances?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The leaders of our central bank have called it an option and a potentially valuable tool to do that, but they maintain it should be as a last resort economic rescue mission type of maneuver. Like a SHTF end-game strategy. Even Japan's Abe is disinclined to deploy this strategy, and we all know the situation they're in is a lot more critical than the one in the U.S. So are they all just wrong? Why do you suppose they are so avoidant of this, in all but the absolute worst of circumstances?

The moral resistance to giving people free money without making them work for it is very strong. It is a necessary measure, but we're probably not going to adopt it until we literally have no other choice.