• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Minimum Wage Debate A Failure Of Common Sense

The idea that McDonald's would or could "fire much of its existing staff" if forced to pay $15/hour is laughable. Until they make a robot that can cook food employees.

I can see you read the cliff notes and not the whole article. They will fire their entire staff, and replace them overtime with people who have higher skills. Instead of hiring people with high school degrees, they will require some college. It is completely illconsidered to suggest that companies have to replace lower skilled workers with robots, when all they have to do is search the pool of people willing to work for 7.26/hr to 15/hr.
 
Mass starvation? No, not since the dust bowl. Scores of deaths at job sites? Yeah...yeah, we had those. What history are you looking at that you think life was harsher prior to OSHA than now?

What history are you looking at? I remember during the Depression that Roosevelt ordered the slaughter of 6 million pigs!

Six Million Pigs

Do you think that would have fed some people?
 
I can see you read the cliff notes and not the whole article. They will fire their entire staff, and replace them overtime with people who have higher skills. Instead of hiring people with high school degrees, they will require some college. It is completely illconsidered to suggest that companies have to replace lower skilled workers with robots, when all they have to do is search the pool of people willing to work for 7.26/hr to 15/hr.

"Higher skills" allow you to cook how many additional burgers per hour? How does a college degree improve this situation?
And if this option is available, why haven't they taken advantage of it? If a "high skilled" burger flipper is "worth" $15/hour more than a "low skilled" burger flipper is "worth" $7.25/hour, why hire the "low skill" burger flipper in the first place?
 
Spin? Spin? I call out your horse**** numbers and you call it spin? :lamo

The numbers are not BS it is your refusal to even look at them that is BS.

In 2012, 35% of the U.S. population lived in a household that received government benefits, counting only means-tested programs such as food stamps, housing assistance and Medicaid.

Expenditures in the United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.budget.senate.gov/republ...?File_id=34919307-6286-47ab-b114-2fd5bcedfeb5
 
No, the Cato institute numbers. Those are horse****. Their "typical welfare family" is not remotely typical. It's barely even possible. Reading comprehension FTW.

Which appear where in the post to which you are responding?
 
No, the Cato institute numbers. Those are horse****. Their "typical welfare family" is not remotely typical. It's barely even possible. Reading comprehension FTW.

What numbers are you using?
 
While we're at it, I'd like a unicorn.

You're just hornie. The government considers anything under five percent unemployment full employment. Look at what's happening right now in North Dakota. The oil boom has created a labor shortage and new hires get fifteen bucks an hour with a three hundred dollar signing bonus to work at McDonalds. I've always had to pay new hires more to start when the labor market was tight. Now I have a bartender working for me who has a masters in education. You can't escape market influence in labor or anything else.
 
The solution to low wages is full employment. When employers are forced to compete for employees the market causes wages to increase.

True, but higher wages aren't good for business owners, which is why true full employment is not possible in a capitalist society. Capitalists want unemployment to exist to keep wages down. The higher the unemployment rate, the better for business owners.

Glad to see you agree with Marx on this issue. :)
 
Yeah, if you don't want a police force, legal system, fire service, transport infrastructure, etc.

Yeah, because there's no such thing as private security, common law, insurance, or private roads. No, these things have never existed in history. :roll:
 
You posted three links.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...bate-failure-common-sense.html#post1062286437

All of them sourced the Cato institute. For ****s sake. Read your own links.

Complete fail! That was the first post, the next two that you pretended to reply to, you simply ignored those links and continued your rant about the first post. I have posted 6 links, of which you noted that the first three related to a common source. Now again you refer to that same post. That horse has been beaten enough. This is a common tactic of those that don't wish to look any further - the basic numbers must be wrong because one source presents them using bad examples. I have shown you numbers (from other sources) which indicate that low income based federal spending in 2012 ($411 billion) exceeded $1,000 per person in the USA; while obviously it was not spent that way, the total spending exists, none the less.
 
"This happens for three reasons. First, higher wages raise demand and this increases profits as well as investments. And new investments, embodying the latest, most productive technologies, in turn raise productivity. Second, growth raises productivity directly, because it makes possible a further deepening of the division of labor and greater learning-by-doing by firms. Third, higher wages induce firms to step up the pace of labor-saving technological progress. The bottom line is that higher wages raise demand, promote technological progress, and increase labor productivity, thereby offsetting at least part (and perhaps all) of the negative impact of higher wages on profits."

How Milton Friedman

Min wage phot.jpg

""It assumes that workers are responsible for their own employment. If they simply reduce their wage demands, employers will demand their labor services. But the principal determinant of whether workers will be hired is aggregate demand. If there is not enough aggregate demand for goods and services, it matters not how low workers reduce their wage demands: there will be no jobs for them. Ironically, if workers lower their wage demands and earn less, they will have less ability to demand goods and services in the aggregate. Although the standard view holds that prices will fall as wages falls, there are limits to how far those prices can fall given employers’ fixed costs. Moreover, as recent trends in productivity growth show that employers have not shared those gains with their workers, it is questionable as to whether they would really lower prices rather than pocket the labor savings.

The macroeconomic benefits should be fairly straightforward: as higher wages will afford workers greater purchasing power, they in turn will be able to demand more goods and services. As they do this, businesses will produce more, and in turn hire more workers, which may have the inevitable result of bidding up wages across the board. This was the basic macroeconomic argument that underpinned the Fair Labor Standards Act when it was passed in 1938. But because there are wage contour effects, an increase in the minimum wage can be expected to have ripple effects through much of the wage distribution. Therefore, the minimum wage not only benefits those at the bottom of the distribution, but the larger middle class.

This is important because conservatives like to justify their anti-statist approach to economic and social problems on the basis of what benefits the middle class. Of course, they claim that lower taxes will benefit the middle class, as that will effectively give workers more purchasing power. But a minimum wage that benefits the middle class and has the macroeconomic benefit of increasing aggregate demand for goods and services and ultimately more jobs should also lead to lower taxes because more people working should lead to fewer living off the largesse of the state. In other words, the conservative case for the minimum wage rests on the assumption that the positive welfare effects of the minimum wage will lead to less redistribution, which occurs through taxation. Milton Friedman used to argue that redistribution was bad because it infringes individual liberty."

The Conservative Case for the Minimum Wage | EPRN

"As fast food workers strike across the nation, progressives must separate fact from fiction in order to secure a living minimum wage.

Fast food workers are going on strike from New York to Seattle to demand higher wages, highlighting the never-ending controversy over the consequences of raising the minimum wage. Many news stories seem to suggest that economists have decided a higher minimum wage will cause job loss. However, with more analysis, we undercover the truth: there is no clear link between a higher minimum wage and reduced employment.

John Schmitt, a Senior Economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, reported in February 2013 that multiple meta-studies (studies that use statistical techniques to analyze a large amount of separate studies) found that for both older and current studies alike, there is no statistical significance in the effect of an increased minimum wage. Put plainly, if the effect is not statistically significant, then there is no proven effect— increases in the minimum wage do not cause job loss.

Accordingly, a few weeks ago, over 100 economists at organizations ranging from the Center for American Progress to Boston University signed a petition in support of increasing the minimum wage. They present current research from well-established organizations such as the National Bureau of Economic Research that shows there are no negative employment effects from minimum wage increases. This includes the most comprehensive data available, based on the increasingly accurate testing that has occurred as more and more states increase minimum wage levels. Even more importantly, this recent series of studies use cutting-edge econometric techniques to control for extraneous variables such as economic downturns and geographic effects. When economists do that, they find that minimum wage increases do not reduce employment.

Logically, this makes a lot of sense. A higher minimum wage is a win-win situation economically: employees have more money to be consumers and are more productive, while businesses wind up reducing costs in the long run, since they won’t have to spend as much money hiring and training new workers (by analyzing data from five separate studies, economists representing the Political Economy Research Institute found that McDonald's could easily make up for the costs of a higher minimum wage with a mere five cent price increase on Big Macs). It’s just as Henry Ford realized—when he paid his workers more, they became part of his customer base, making his company even more profitable. Increasing the customer base and expanding customer pockets helps stimulate the entire economy, badly needed in the current recession.

So if we have no evidence linking high wages to job loss, our next question is: are higher wages needed as a poverty reduction tool?

Currently, the 2013 Federal Poverty guidelines stipulate $23,550 for a family of four as poverty level. A $7.25 minimum wage currently nets the protesting fast food workers $15,080 a year if the workers are lucky enough to work 40 hours a week. In a typical household with two parents and two children, parents who make $7.25 earn far below the living wage of $13.55, according to an MIT wage calculator. The numbers become even starker when you separate out true living expenses: food, medical care, housing, transportation, and other needed expenses add up to a required $37,540 annual income before taxes, which is notably different than the poverty guidelines that the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services set. Even if the two parents worked 40 hours a week for 52 weeks, they would only earn $30,160 in total, significantly below the resources they need to live. Moreover, these estimates are only for a typical nuclear family. The struggle that single-income families, large families, or families living in high-cost cities go through is exponentially higher.

The buying power of minimum wage has steadily been waning due to the effects of inflation for the past 40 years. When prices increase, a worker’s paycheck buys less and less. To put it in perspective, we look to another brief by John Schmitt: if minimum wage had continued to match productivity growth, it would have been $21.72 per hour in 2012. If we only adjust for the cost of living, a minimum wage pegged to inflation would be $10.52.

A huge bulk of evidence makes the case that increasing the minimum wage is a doable, efficient, and necessary change for the economy. This change needs to happen now. We as Americans have a moral obligation to make sure that other Americans who are working hard to support themselves and their families are able to make a living."

Debunking the Minimum Wage Myth: Higher Wages Will Not Reduce Jobs | Next New Deal
 
Oh god not that Cato Institute bull**** again. (did you notice that was the source for all three of your links?)They grossly exaggerate the "typical welfare family's" assistance and completely ignore the fact that most families receiving these various benefits do actually have income from work. What they've given you is a hypothetical maximum benefit that in practice never happens.


One of the major Libertarian logical flaws is always readily apparent in minimum wage discussions. They have this inherent assumption that if you are being paid minimum wage, it's because you are "worth" minimum wage. In the real world, the employer-employee relationship is not an equal one. No, actually, people can't always just go get a better job or better education, or start their own business. Education and business startups cost money, and someone working minimum wage can barely feed themselves. And where do these hypothetical higher paying jobs come from? If you filled every single job opening in this country right this instant, there would still be millions of unemployed people. They can't even get a minimum wage job, much less a better one.

The idea that McDonald's would or could "fire much of its existing staff" if forced to pay $15/hour is laughable. Until they make a robot that can cook food and serve it, there's only so many people you can cut there. When they do make that robot, those people are getting cut no matter what their pay is, because McDonald's does not and never will give a **** about the well-being of its employees.

would you believe the statistics if it came from a government agency?

welfare-cliff_0.jpg
 
True, but higher wages aren't good for business owners, which is why true full employment is not possible in a capitalist society. Capitalists want unemployment to exist to keep wages down. The higher the unemployment rate, the better for business owners.

Glad to see you agree with Marx on this issue. :)

Capitalists want to sell their products and if the market can afford to buy, and they make a profit, then they are happy. You seem to think that employees aren't an asset, and are not an investment just like any part of the business.

Less Marxworld, more real world.
 
Capitalists want to sell their products and if the market can afford to buy, and they make a profit, then they are happy. You seem to think that employees aren't an asset, and are not an investment just like any part of the business.

Less Marxworld, more real world.
It's a balancing game there gents. Capitalists want enough people working to buy their good and services but not so many as to cause wages to rise. 5% unemployment usually hits that mark nicely.
 
The solution to low wages is full employment. When employers are forced to compete for employees the market causes wages to increase.
@Everyone missed the most valid point here. I would happily abolish the minimum wage if we could also ensure 1) full (adequate) employment and 2) that the government doesn't play crony police buddy and forcibly restrict the right of people to form unions. Both of these are kind of a no-brainer.

However, we're still living in a system that allows high unemployment, which makes the minimum wage not only necessary, but also the most powerful tool in combating inequality and a stagnant economy. Presently, it would actually be enormously stimulative to raise the minimum wage; Any raise to the minimum wage now would feed directly into aggregate demand, significantly raise money velocity, thereby lowering unemployment and raising our GDP all at once. That we aren't doing it now is a failure of common sense.

The most universally acceptable decent alternative would be a state bank. North Dakota's done quite well with theirs.
 
Yeah, because there's no such thing as private security, common law, insurance, or private roads. No, these things have never existed in history. :roll:

They existed, and they weren't very good.
Private fire departments were forced to close down after people got sick of them standing by, watching buildings burn down because they weren't insured by that firm.
 
They existed, and they weren't very good.
Private fire departments were forced to close down after people got sick of them standing by, watching buildings burn down because they weren't insured by that firm.

Private security doesn't exist anymore?

Remember, our legal system is based on common law which came about without a centralized government.

Private roads have been regulated out of existence. See the Dulles Greenway.
 
Spin it any way that you wish to but federal spending on income based social programs (income redistribution) is a very large amount. In 2012 it was $411 billion or over $1,000 per U.S. citizen.

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go? — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

It is actually worse. "These programs include: the refundable portions of the Earned Income Tax Credit and Child Tax Credit". The EITC and CTC are credits that off-set tax obligations. The only proportion of the credit included here is the refundable part.
 
Spin? Spin? I call out your horse**** numbers and you call it spin? :lamo

the CBPP is a leftist think tank. You aren't 'call out' anything. To do that, you would have to have some data to support your statement. Here all you are doing complaining. Where are your sources?
 
The buying power of minimum wage has steadily been waning due to the effects of inflation for the past 40 years. When prices increase, a worker’s paycheck buys less and less. To put it in perspective, we look to another brief by John Schmitt: if minimum wage had continued to match productivity growth, it would have been $21.72 per hour in 2012. If we only adjust for the cost of living, a minimum wage pegged to inflation would be $10.52.

You hurt your credability with this statement to the eyes of anyone familiar with the minimum wage in real terms.

Productivity growth of captial and the productivity growth of the worker are two different things.

This "If we only adjust for the cost of living, a minimum wage pegged to inflation would be $10.52." really hurts your credability. The minimum wage has only been more than $10.50 in 2012 dollars once in the 75 year existance of the minimum wage. At $7.25, it is actually above its historic average. You present it as though your baseline was a normal year rather than the absolute high peak year.
 
Back
Top Bottom