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Military suicide - LA times may have found the cause

Oozlefinch

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I thought I would bring this up because of something I read in the LA Times.

Army Spc. James Christian Paquette walked into the benefits office at Ft. Wainwright, Alaska, with a question: Did his military life insurance policy pay in cases of suicide? He was assured that it did.

Less than two weeks later, he shot and killed himself — and his family collected $400,000.

His widow struggles with the question of whether he would have proceeded with his plan if suicide had not been covered. "He just wanted to know we would be provided for," Jami Calahan said. "It may have been a weight taken away."

The role of life insurance has not been closely examined in the quest to understand why 352 active-duty service members took their own lives last year — more than double the number a decade earlier.
Looking closer at the role of life insurance in military suicides - latimes.com

And there is something I find very disturbing in this, which is why nobody at the "benefits office" said anything about this visit. However, knowing that in most cases the people who staff these offices are not military but civilians, I am not surprised.

So maybe the solution to end suicides is as simple as reducing the insurance, or outright eliminating it.
 

paddymcdougall

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I'd hesitate to blame the insurance on the basis of a few cases. But they could study it more to see.
 

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It is why a lot of policies step their coverage in suicides from none to full benefits over a period of time--so suicidal people do not game the industry.
 

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I thought I would bring this up because of something I read in the LA Times.


Looking closer at the role of life insurance in military suicides - latimes.com

And there is something I find very disturbing in this, which is why nobody at the "benefits office" said anything about this visit. However, knowing that in most cases the people who staff these offices are not military but civilians, I am not surprised.

So maybe the solution to end suicides is as simple as reducing the insurance, or outright eliminating it.
"The solution to end suicides is as simple as . . . "

We'll NEVER end suicides.

The number of suicides in the U.S. Active Military is roughly twice that of civilian suicides. Civilian insurance almost always pays when suicide is the cause of death -- after a waiting period of two years, usually. Why should those in the military have less than that?

It's not surprising that their suicide rate is much higher than those in civilian life, since our population numbers include babies on up. If one looked at it closer, I think one would find the rate is close to the same. IOW, if we had statistics that took into account the AGE of people in the military and compared it to statistics in the civilian population in the same age group, I think any difference could be easily explained by "the military" having much more ready access to the means.
 

Thoreau72

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I thought I would bring this up because of something I read in the LA Times.


Looking closer at the role of life insurance in military suicides - latimes.com

And there is something I find very disturbing in this, which is why nobody at the "benefits office" said anything about this visit. However, knowing that in most cases the people who staff these offices are not military but civilians, I am not surprised.

So maybe the solution to end suicides is as simple as reducing the insurance, or outright eliminating it.
A very good article with a new angle on it. Like Paddy, I rather doubt that a legitimate cause & effect relationship has been established yet, and I doubt that one could be established.

But now you advocate really screwing the surviving family members by cancelling the suicide benefits? Egads man, I thought you were all about respecting those "surviving family members?" Maybe you are one of those "compassionate conservatives", eh?
 

Oozlefinch

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"The solution to end suicides is as simple as . . . "

We'll NEVER end suicides.

The number of suicides in the U.S. Active Military is roughly twice that of civilian suicides. Civilian insurance almost always pays when suicide is the cause of death -- after a waiting period of two years, usually. Why should those in the military have less than that?
Actually, contrary to all the hype it has gotten, military suicides are just about on par with civilian, in some cases even lower. And as you imply, the biggest problem with the statistics is that the majority of those in the military are also the same demographics as those who kill themselves in the civilian world, which skews the statistics.

A very good article with a new angle on it. Like Paddy, I rather doubt that a legitimate cause & effect relationship has been established yet, and I doubt that one could be established.

But now you advocate really screwing the surviving family members by cancelling the suicide benefits? Egads man, I thought you were all about respecting those "surviving family members?" Maybe you are one of those "compassionate conservatives", eh?
I advocate screwing surviving family members? I guess your sarcasm detector is off, or it was not as obvious as I thought that what I said was in complete sarcasm. However, because of this article it would not surprise me if some did actually advocate that, it almost seemed to be what the article implied.

But for service members who are already distressed, knowing that death comes with a financial reward for their families could provide extra motivation, researchers said.
 

Thoreau72

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Actually, contrary to all the hype it has gotten, military suicides are just about on par with civilian, in some cases even lower. And as you imply, the biggest problem with the statistics is that the majority of those in the military are also the same demographics as those who kill themselves in the civilian world, which skews the statistics.



I advocate screwing surviving family members? I guess your sarcasm detector is off, or it was not as obvious as I thought that what I said was in complete sarcasm. However, because of this article it would not surprise me if some did actually advocate that, it almost seemed to be what the article implied.
Yep, sarcasm detector was powered-down.

Usually when YOU offer sarcasm, it includes some kind of cute picture or cartoon.
 

Oozlefinch

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Yep, sarcasm detector was powered-down.

Usually when YOU offer sarcasm, it includes some kind of cute picture or cartoon.
Yes, and that I admit, because most times my sarcasm is intended to make light of an issue.

Suicide among those with whom I serve I do not take lightly at all, and doing so would have been in bad taste.
 

Thoreau72

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Yes, and that I admit, because most times my sarcasm is intended to make light of an issue.

Suicide among those with whom I serve I do not take lightly at all, and doing so would have been in bad taste.
The suicide rate is more than a tragedy, it's a crime, IMO.

The GWOT was brought under fraud, and it continues to be waged under fraud. The multiple tours these young troops get are wrong, and a big reason for this suicide phenomenon.

What I'm curious about is the AWOL rate amongst the combat troops, USA and USMC. Back in my day with the draft, it was pretty high, but I don't know what it is these days.
 

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The military, suicide, the endgame being...

suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please.


M*A*S*H*

"Suicide is painless" was intentionally written to be the stupidest song ever be written because suicide is stupid.
 

Oozlefinch

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The suicide rate is more than a tragedy, it's a crime, IMO.

The GWOT was brought under fraud, and it continues to be waged under fraud. The multiple tours these young troops get are wrong, and a big reason for this suicide phenomenon.

What I'm curious about is the AWOL rate amongst the combat troops, USA and USMC. Back in my day with the draft, it was pretty high, but I don't know what it is these days.
But the suicide rate is miniscule, it is not anywhere even close to 1%. How can you even realistically try and track something that is around 350 out of 2.4 million?

Here, let me describe it this way:

You have $24,000, and one year I take $3. Then the next year I take $3.50, and you scream that I stole to much and it is a crime.

I suggest you do some studying on "Margin of error", ok? Or better yet, do your own research in everything, and do not just make these stupid challenges in here over and over like you always do, do your own freaking research.

Over 70% of those who kill themselves in the military have never been deployed! It has nothing to do with combat, or deployments, or PTSD, it never has. It is the exact same things that causes people to kill themselves in any other walk of life. End of a relationship, end of a career, not enough money, death of a loved one, depression, etc, etc, etc.

And the AWOL rate is very low, it has been since the end of the draft 30 years ago. And like suicide, most cases of AWOL are completely unrelated to combat or deployments. When my unit deployed in 2009, out of around 350 people only 1 was AWOL. But we knew exactly where he was, he was sitting in jail for a drug related offense (yes, when you are in jail you are AWOL).
 

APACHERAT

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The suicide rate is more than a tragedy, it's a crime, IMO.

The multiple tours these young troops get are wrong, and a big reason for this suicide phenomenon.

.
Just recently there was a study showing that the majority of those military suicides have never been deployed outside of the CONUS.

So it must be something else ?

Maybe the the fast changes (social engineering) that is taking place within the military today is just a little bit too much to handle for some ?

Drag queens on military bases and gender friendly crappers ?

Instead of playing army and shooting guns on the range, being forced to attend mandatory sensitivity training classes instead.
 

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I thought I would bring this up because of something I read in the LA Times.


Looking closer at the role of life insurance in military suicides - latimes.com

And there is something I find very disturbing in this, which is why nobody at the "benefits office" said anything about this visit. However, knowing that in most cases the people who staff these offices are not military but civilians, I am not surprised.

So maybe the solution to end suicides is as simple as reducing the insurance, or outright eliminating it.
I'm not willing to believe that insurance money is the cause. There are all kinds of reasons why Service Members kill themselves. I remember one night I was on the roof of the barracks in Korea, and I just stared down the edge. The thought of "**** it, why not?" popped into my head, and I seriously considered doing it. There were other episodes like that, too, and I can't even begin to explain why. Those kinds of thoughts had never come to me before. I wasn't depressed, or hurting for cash, or anything like that. I just wanted to die for absolutely no reason at all. It probably sounds as stupid to you as it does to me, but some sessions at mental health really helped out.

There are also guys who got blown up by IED's, have real bad PTSD, and/or other ****ed up **** going on in their heads. There was a guy in WSMR who lost it. He shot his wife, shot at the police, and then shot himself. Another guy just shot himself in the head out of the blue during a training exercise. In Korea, the chaplain's assistant hanged himself, and another guy took a dive off a tall cliff. I don't know why they did it, but I think it's a safe bet that money wasn't the issue. Those suicide awareness classes are bull****, too, because those are meant for others to spot signs of people who are visibly distraught. We aren't dealing with classic civilian signs of suicide, this is something different. Something that civilians don't deal with. We need to teach our Service Members that it's ok to go to mental health if they're having suicidal thoughts, how to identify it, and how to not do it. We also need NCO's to get off Soldiers asses, and making accusations for seeking the help they need. Mental health is supposed to be confidential. Nobody needs to be asking why a Service Member has to go, and they sure as **** don't need to call them names, and make fun of them for improving themselves. For all they know, they could be on a list of crap that "crazy" is going to blow the **** away.
 

Oozlefinch

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I'm not willing to believe that insurance money is the cause. There are all kinds of reasons why Service Members kill themselves.
I don't think it is either, to me this is just another case of Liberal Media trying to find something to blame, and I wonder if they actually think that they might be able to get a "suicide clause" put into SGLI.

Every year more college students commit suicide, a huge number more. On the average of 7 per 100,000 students, well over 1,000 last year. This is about on par with the percentage, but 3 times the number of people who have killed themselves in the military. But are people making screams that it is the "brutality of the system", and that it is "criminal" and try to stick the blame for political purposes?

This is what disturbs and sickens me the most. Not that it happens, it has always happened and always will. But that people will actually use this as a way to push some political agenda. This tells me that they really do not give a **** about the military, or those that have killed themselves, to them politics and their mindset is all that matters.

And I bet if college campuses were mostly seen as "Conservative Centers of Learning", then indeed we would see screams that the system needed to change, and that it was a crime. But college campus' are mostly seen as "Liberal Centers for Enlightenment", so suicide is ignored and swept under the rug, never to be mentioned.
 

Thoreau72

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But the suicide rate is miniscule, it is not anywhere even close to 1%. How can you even realistically try and track something that is around 350 out of 2.4 million?

Here, let me describe it this way:

You have $24,000, and one year I take $3. Then the next year I take $3.50, and you scream that I stole to much and it is a crime.

I suggest you do some studying on "Margin of error", ok? Or better yet, do your own research in everything, and do not just make these stupid challenges in here over and over like you always do, do your own freaking research.

Over 70% of those who kill themselves in the military have never been deployed! It has nothing to do with combat, or deployments, or PTSD, it never has. It is the exact same things that causes people to kill themselves in any other walk of life. End of a relationship, end of a career, not enough money, death of a loved one, depression, etc, etc, etc.

And the AWOL rate is very low, it has been since the end of the draft 30 years ago. And like suicide, most cases of AWOL are completely unrelated to combat or deployments. When my unit deployed in 2009, out of around 350 people only 1 was AWOL. But we knew exactly where he was, he was sitting in jail for a drug related offense (yes, when you are in jail you are AWOL).
I cannot argue with any of that Oozle, because I have not really researched the matter.

But I will say that over the last about 8 years, I have read articles here and there that disagree with what you're saying, in general terms. It has been written for years that the suicide rate of GIs is more than double the suicide rate amongst the general population. It must be controversial, or you would not have found this article in the Times. Though I can't remember the name, it seems they even made a movie about it a few years back?

As for the AWOL rates, I have no idea. That's why I posed the question.
 

mak2

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I think the suicide clause has been around since life insurance has been. Depending on state it is two or three years. Imagine if life insurance was not paid if a service member committed suicide.
 

mak2

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Wasnt that about the dentist extremely large member, all the nurses, and impotence, or something like that?
The military, suicide, the endgame being...

suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please.


M*A*S*H*

"Suicide is painless" was intentionally written to be the stupidest song ever be written because suicide is stupid.
 

Oozlefinch

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I cannot argue with any of that Oozle, because I have not really researched the matter.

But I will say that over the last about 8 years, I have read articles here and there that disagree with what you're saying, in general terms. It has been written for years that the suicide rate of GIs is more than double the suicide rate amongst the general population. It must be controversial, or you would not have found this article in the Times. Though I can't remember the name, it seems they even made a movie about it a few years back?

As for the AWOL rates, I have no idea. That's why I posed the question.
And this is what I find so frustrating with you.

You readily admit you do no research, yet you insist that myself and others are wrong. And I really do not care what articles you are reading, have you thought that they might be biased or trying to push an agenda? I can't tell you how often I read an article somewhere about the military, and it is obvious that the writer does not have a freaking clue of what they are talking about.

Now for the military, that is easy. Enlistment for the last decade has been around 2.4 million. And the last statistic we had for 2012 I believe was right at 350.

Now, here it is for colleges:

Experts estimate 1,0888 suicides occur at colleges every year - that's roughly 7.5 per 100,000 students. According to an ACHA study in 2002, 1 in 12 college students has actually made a suicide plan at some point and 1.5 out of every 100 have actually attempted it.
College Suicide Statistics - Statistics on College and Teen Suicides

And with a little math, you come at a number which is pretty much the same as in the military.

And here are some more facts:

In July 2010, an Army report said that 79 percent of active-duty soldiers who committed suicide had deployed only once or not at all; that 60 percent of suicides occurred during a soldier’s first enlistment, most often in the first year; and that among the highest suicide rates were those of men who enlisted in their late 20s.
Study: Deployments not reason for increase in military suicides - U.S. - Stripes

Last year, 53 percent of service members who killed themselves had no history of deployment, according to the Defense Department’s most recent data. And about 85 percent of military members who took their lives had no direct combat history, meaning they may have been deployed but not seen action.
Military Suicide Among Soldiers Who Haven't Deployed | @pritheworld

There, those are facts my friend. And I suggest you learn how to use facts, because to be honest I am getting real sick and tired of you just saying that you think things are wrong, not doing any research then ignoring facts when people like myself actually do the work to go out and research things. It is tremendously disrespectful and insulting, not to mention almost like calling us liars.
 

mak2

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Thanks for that actually. I really had wondered how it compared for the age group. Course I too was too lazy to look it up.
And this is what I find so frustrating with you.

You readily admit you do no research, yet you insist that myself and others are wrong. And I really do not care what articles you are reading, have you thought that they might be biased or trying to push an agenda? I can't tell you how often I read an article somewhere about the military, and it is obvious that the writer does not have a freaking clue of what they are talking about.

Now for the military, that is easy. Enlistment for the last decade has been around 2.4 million. And the last statistic we had for 2012 I believe was right at 350.

Now, here it is for colleges:


College Suicide Statistics - Statistics on College and Teen Suicides

And with a little math, you come at a number which is pretty much the same as in the military.

And here are some more facts:


Study: Deployments not reason for increase in military suicides - U.S. - Stripes


Military Suicide Among Soldiers Who Haven't Deployed | @pritheworld

There, those are facts my friend. And I suggest you learn how to use facts, because to be honest I am getting real sick and tired of you just saying that you think things are wrong, not doing any research then ignoring facts when people like myself actually do the work to go out and research things. It is tremendously disrespectful and insulting, not to mention almost like calling us liars.
 

Thoreau72

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And this is what I find so frustrating with you.

You readily admit you do no research, yet you insist that myself and others are wrong. And I really do not care what articles you are reading, have you thought that they might be biased or trying to push an agenda? I can't tell you how often I read an article somewhere about the military, and it is obvious that the writer does not have a freaking clue of what they are talking about.

Now for the military, that is easy. Enlistment for the last decade has been around 2.4 million. And the last statistic we had for 2012 I believe was right at 350.

Now, here it is for colleges:


College Suicide Statistics - Statistics on College and Teen Suicides

And with a little math, you come at a number which is pretty much the same as in the military.

And here are some more facts:


Study: Deployments not reason for increase in military suicides - U.S. - Stripes


Military Suicide Among Soldiers Who Haven't Deployed | @pritheworld

There, those are facts my friend. And I suggest you learn how to use facts, because to be honest I am getting real sick and tired of you just saying that you think things are wrong, not doing any research then ignoring facts when people like myself actually do the work to go out and research things. It is tremendously disrespectful and insulting, not to mention almost like calling us liars.
Man alive, you are sure thin-skinned for being in the military. Where did I say you were wrong? I did not.

I said that other people have written articles that don't agree with you. Where did I say they were right? I did not.

What you hate about my style is that I can consider both sides to any controversy without NECESSARILY taking a position. Carry on troop. :peace
 

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Wasnt that about the dentist extremely large member, all the nurses, and impotence, or something like that?
It's been over twenty five years since the the last time I have watched the movie M*A*S*H*.

I was in-country when the movie was first released and heard about if from a letter from home. It wasn't allowed to be seen on military installations because even though the movie took place during the Korean war it was considered to be a liberal Hollywood anti Vietnam war movie. But when I got back to the world I did see the movie at camp Pendleton at the outdoor movie theatre at Camp Las Pulgas when I was with the 5th MEB.

Just went to the IMDB website to refresh my mind by looking at the quotes. -> MASH (1970) - Quotes - IMDb

It was a good flick.
 

Oozlefinch

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Man alive, you are sure thin-skinned for being in the military. Where did I say you were wrong? I did not.

I said that other people have written articles that don't agree with you. Where did I say they were right? I did not.

What you hate about my style is that I can consider both sides to any controversy without NECESSARILY taking a position. Carry on troop. :peace
Actually, in most cases I do not really take "a side" at all. I simply state facts or correct misconceptions, and let things go at that. And I could not care less which side is which, to me what is most important is accuracy - nothing else.
 

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I don't think it is either, to me this is just another case of Liberal Media trying to find something to blame, and I wonder if they actually think that they might be able to get a "suicide clause" put into SGLI.

Every year more college students commit suicide, a huge number more. On the average of 7 per 100,000 students, well over 1,000 last year. This is about on par with the percentage, but 3 times the number of people who have killed themselves in the military. But are people making screams that it is the "brutality of the system", and that it is "criminal" and try to stick the blame for political purposes?

This is what disturbs and sickens me the most. Not that it happens, it has always happened and always will. But that people will actually use this as a way to push some political agenda. This tells me that they really do not give a **** about the military, or those that have killed themselves, to them politics and their mindset is all that matters.

And I bet if college campuses were mostly seen as "Conservative Centers of Learning", then indeed we would see screams that the system needed to change, and that it was a crime. But college campus' are mostly seen as "Liberal Centers for Enlightenment", so suicide is ignored and swept under the rug, never to be mentioned.
People will always use the military to push their own politics. There are a lot of things they could, and should do, but it's much easier for them to just say they "support the troops", and that they care about suicides, and PTSD, and TBI. They never did, it's just a way to appear concerned so they can get votes, and support for their ****ty legislature. To this day, every time I hear "support the troops" I just automatically tune out whoever is talking and go to my happy place, because I know the next couple of minutes are going to be loaded down with bull****.
 

apdst

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The generation that went to Iraq and Afghanistan grew up listening to the PTSD industry tell them that if they ever went to war, they are supposed to come back ****ed up. The suicide rate is a by-product of that.
 

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I thought I would bring this up because of something I read in the LA Times.


Looking closer at the role of life insurance in military suicides - latimes.com

And there is something I find very disturbing in this, which is why nobody at the "benefits office" said anything about this visit. However, knowing that in most cases the people who staff these offices are not military but civilians, I am not surprised.

So maybe the solution to end suicides is as simple as reducing the insurance, or outright eliminating it.
The "benefits office" is called DEERS and is operated by the military. Even when you find civilians pushing papers, they're either veterans (there's actually a law requiring most of them to be veterans) or DoD contractors.

Insurance has nothing to do with suicide.
Study: Deployments not reason for increase in military suicides - U.S. - Stripes

.....“In this sample of current and former military personnel … suicide risk was independently associated with male sex and mental disorders but not with military-specific variables,” the study, “Risk Factors Associated with Suicide in Current and Former U.S. Military Personnel,” said.

~snip~

“This suggests that the increased rate of suicide in the military may largely be a product of an increased prevalence of mental disorders in this population …,” the study said.
Life insurence has nothing to do with anything. Please take your agenda elsewhere.
 
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