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Europe has embraced socialism and are reaping its "rewards" now.
Europe has embraced socialism and are reaping its "rewards" now.
The Euro nations feeling most pain are those most involved in the American capitalist casino crash.
A lack of fiscal conservatism is the reason for all of our troubles. Clearly the rest of the world thought it wise to follow along with the typical Anglo-Saxon approach of "borrow now, hope to have the money to pay it back later". THATS what led to our crash, not welfare systems.
While I agree that countries could use some common sense fiscal conservatism to cut the public budgets (there is a lot of waste imo), I disagree that it is some sort of mirical cure for what troubles Europe is in, since those troubles are for the most part not self inflicted (depends on which country we are talking about of course).
First off our "crash" only came because of the US crash. Had there been no US crash, then there had been no European crash.
Do you really believe there would have been no crash if it wasn't for the American economy? Considering we was going down the exact same path as America, just on a much smaller scale, surely without America we would have only delayed the inevitable.
I strongly feel we were headed down the same route, that the crash and budget deficits here would have happened anyway. It was RBS and Northern Rock that lent foolishly without consideration of the risks. Many banks offered 100%+ mortgages offered to people when we all thought the housing bubble would go on forever.
That wasn't sub-prime as I understand it in the US but banks were still lending to whoever wished to borrow on the slightest of financial investigation.
I feel we would have crashed - there's been a growth in public sector to the tune of nearly a million since 2001 and no similar growth in the private sector, the banks lending recklessly etc.The question is the scale of the eventual crash, our banks follishly got involved with the US sub-prime market and that took the scale of the eventual crash to the atrsonomic figures we have now.
Neither Kaya nor Paris nor myself are discussing fiscal conservatism from the point of a miracle cure - but something that would have said "hang on, this looks too good to be true."
Credit dried up largely as a response to the crash in the US sub prime and we have all the other consequences which we now see.
RBS and Northern Rock only happened because credit dried up
-- Not sure what you are getting at --snip-- as always, the first to get hit in a recession are the low income earners who get fired first which was Northern Rocks problem. But yes, it was easier than "normal" to get a housing loan before the crash, but that does not mean everyone could get a loan.
-- I agree, but that is not fiscal conservatism, but common sense..
There were many other reasons - RBS and Northern Rock also pursued unwise economic strategy and purchases - everyone thought things could carry on forever. Other banks in the UK were more cautious - if it was simply a case of US credit and sub-prime, more of our banks would have gone under. These two were the most reckless.
There was talk of 125% mortgages at Northern Rock at one time.
Believe me - as I had purchased my second house at this time, Northern Rock had very few qualifiers and checks on who and how you could get a mortgage. I deliberately bought small and I worked to an 80% mortgage and wouldn't shift - but I did have a mortgage broker try and show me how I could get 125% through Northern Rock (and a few others) with very little checking.
Actually, even Barclays offered me (as a long time customer) 120%. This was when I first lost my custody battle with my ex - I wanted to keep my old house but in the end I let it go (luckily) and got a mortgage for a new house that I could afford.
If you wish to quibble - however I'm fairly certain that's what Kaya and I meant. :mrgreen:
Yes, there was of course other factors involved, but the prime trigger was the US sub-prime market crash. If it had not been for that, Northern Rock would not have gone down, nor RBS, even if we had a recession here.
It would be foolish to ignore what happened in the US but we certainly (in the UK Govt) do much to help either.
2000 OECD attack on lax fiscal rules
2004 Enterprise Act adds to general risk-taking culture.
We were going to crash anyway - the structures to allow a UK credit crash were being put in place by our "iron chancellor."
The UK was beaten into submission in the Suez crisis by the US. The military lesson there can only be... dont trust the US, and so far the UK military brass and politicians have not learned jack**** from that.
-- A European , on the other hand learns the lesson "don't trust the US"
Do you really believe there would have been no crash if it wasn't for the American economy? Considering we was going down the exact same path as America, just on a much smaller scale, surely without America we would have only delayed the inevitable.
The US threatened to dump Sterling reserves onto the market, thus sinking the UK economy. Our PM had to resign because of the disaster caused by the US. Up till then, we'd seen the US as nothing but an ally.
Israel certainly learned a lesson there and focussed on working with the US but they have to accept that the US can ask them to jump whenever it feels like. We don't need to trust the US in the same way - our security is no longer dependent on an ally we cannot wholly trust.
Yes but the UK aint Europe as a whole.
--Do you have a link as to which Administration this was? --
-- Do you think Britain is able to protect their traditional rights and freedoms at home while also fighting wars abroad?
So you feel that the collapse of other countries within the EU, Paricularly the PIIGS, won't effect the British economy? Do you expect the Germans to bail them out?
Eisenhower.
The fiscal paths are similar but with one real distinction.
The majority of Americans are prepared to make sacrifices in order to make their financial problems more manageable while Europeans, if we can judge by the ongoing riots, are not. Bith do share the same serious problems however, and demographics tell us that these problems will not go away easily.
Other than Greece, what collapse? Not even Ireland is collapsed (yet) and that is the only at risk at this time. There is no PIIGS,.. it is US right wing media hype.
Yes, it's all US Right Wing media hype. BBC News - Europe's PIGS: Country by country
The US right wing media have also been reporting riots in France.
-- Seems like Eisenhower created a lot of enemies in the UK and a result the people do not trust Americans to this day.
-- a result of the actions of this one man over 50 years ago, still have an abiding distrust to this day for the American people
-- Their trust in the Germans and Italians remains intact, I presume.
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