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Michigan cop on Black man's back, fatally shot him

tres borrachos said:
It isn't in that screenshot. Stop with the hysterics and personal attacks and read my posts.

It is not in the screenshot. There is nothing in that screenshot that any rational person would see and say "He had the taser in a position to harm the police officer."

If you can't post like an adult just say so and I will move on. I'm not here to convince you of what I see. I am here to post about what I see. You are free to see something different.
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I would just keep repeating to you the fact that a weapon does not need to be pointed directly at a cop before he reacts to you until that fact sinks in but I think that may be impossible.

The fact that you think posting lies and ignoring reality is posting like an adult then I don’t know what to tell you.
 
Lutherf said:
If your son is getting pulled over that often it's not because he's black, it's because he's driving in ways that attract attention. Most cops can't tell the race of a driver from behind their car, at least until they get close enough to make some kind of ID. Also, if they're calling out K-9 all the time that's a sign that something else is going on as well.

Most cities and towns have areas that are more heavily patrolled than others. That's not because cops are out to get people in those areas but because that's where the most complaints come from. If your son is frequenting one of those areas he will be more prone to get pulled over merely because there is more police presence. If your sone is prone to driving aggressively he will be more prone to getting pulled over. Some cops pull aggressive drivers over for minor issues just to give them a warning and to make them think about what they are doing. There are LOTS of reasons that cops pull people over and race is generally at the bottom of that list.
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Bwwaah. Good try. I mean I like the consistency of theme.." it must be the civilians fault"
Except...the offenses stopped for often have nothing to do with driving ( wrong colored tailight??) Or were as mundane as 71 in a 65. You think k driving 6 miles over the speed limit on the highway is out of the realm of ordinary? And waiting for tge drug dog multiple times. Sure..its his driving lol... Meanwhile I drive through the same neighborhood with the same car..same broken tailight..same " wrong colored " tail light and nothing happens.
 
braindrain said:
I would just keep repeating to you the fact that a weapon does not need to be pointed directly at a cop before he reacts to you until that fact sinks in but I think that may be impossible.

The fact that you think posting lies and ignoring reality is posting like an adult then I don’t know what to tell you.
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Have a great weekend.
 
jaeger19 said:
Bwwaah. Good try. I mean I like the consistency of theme.." it must be the civilians fault"
Except...the offenses stopped for often have nothing to do with driving ( wrong colored tailight??) Or were as mundane as 71 in a 65. You think k driving 6 miles over the speed limit on the highway is out of the realm of ordinary? And waiting for tge drug dog multiple times. Sure..its his driving lol... Meanwhile I drive through the same neighborhood with the same car..same broken tailight..same " wrong colored " tail light and nothing happens.
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Yeah, cops pull people over for mundane stuff. I once got pulled over on the freeway for a crack in my windshield. The cop questioned me for about 5 min regarding where I was coming from and where I was going. A backup squad even showed up. I knew EXACTLY why he pulled me over too and it wasn't the windshield. My vehicle happened to be a perfect profile for a drug mule and I was on I-10 heading south..wearing sunglasses right out of central casting for every narco flick you've ever seen. I was even armed. Got a warning about the windshield and got followed to the gas station at the next exit where he and the other car kept a close eye on me from the other side of the lot as I filled up. I was totally profiled, knew I was profiled and...didn't give a rats ass about it because that's what the cops on that corridor are trained to look for, and with good reason.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I also didn't get shot because I cooperated, kept my cool, let the cop do his job without interuption and didn't complain about any of it. I would also assume that having a clean record helped. See, white people get profiled too.
 
Lutherf said:
Yeah, cops pull people over for mundane stuff. I once got pulled over on the freeway for a crack in my windshield. The cop questioned me for about 5 min regarding where I was coming from and where I was going. A backup squad even showed up. I knew EXACTLY why he pulled me over too and it wasn't the windshield. My vehicle happened to be a perfect profile for a drug mule and I was on I-10 heading south..wearing sunglasses right out of central casting for every narco flick you've ever seen. I was even armed. Got a warning about the windshield and got followed to the gas station at the next exit where he and the other car kept a close eye on me from the other side of the lot as I filled up. I was totally profiled, knew I was profiled and...didn't give a rats ass about it because that's what the cops on that corridor are trained to look for, and with good reason.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I also didn't get shot because I cooperated, kept my cool, let the cop do his job without interuption and didn't complain about any of it. I would also assume that having a clean record helped. See, white people get profiled too.
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Yep..white people do get profiled.
Here is what is ironic
When white people are profiled..the policexare much much more likely to find an issue or contraband.
When black people are profiled they are LESS likely to find and issue and contraband.
Yet they pull over black people at higher rates.
And they are statistically more likely to use force on a minority.

As an aside..think about what you said.
"I also didn't get shot because I cooperated, kept my cool, let the cop do his job without interuption and didn't complain about any of it".
So basically that states..to not get shot you have to be more cool...more sensible..and more respectful....than the professional police officer..
Kind of a sad commentary on policing.
 
jaeger19 said:
You would be completely and utterly wrong.
Minorities particularly black folks..gave the talk with their children.
As I did with mine..
That the facts are..they cannot act like white people around police. That they gave to be more careful..more deliberate and more calm..more respectful because the police are more likely to over react ..more likly to stop and search you etc.

And ..my sons particularly my oldest have found this is true. I drive his car..nothing happens. ( I am white).
He drives his car... he gets stopped from broken tail lght..71 in a 65..wrong color tail light..going too slow. Most of the time he has to wait for the drug dog to go around..or has the officers search the car and he is on his way with a warning
Now he did get the ticket with 71 in a 65..( and I doubt his car can get to 71). .. but he made the state trooper mad. When the trooper said " I smell marijuana " ..my son laughed and said " officer if want to search the vehicle..go ahead"..
Pissed the trooper right off and he got the ticket..and...the trooper didn't search the car..
So what does that tell you? ...did he really think there was drugs in the car??
The truth is white people get a pass more often or not on behavior that a minority would end up having force used on them. And studies bear this out.

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I certainly hope parents are telling their kids to obey the police. They should not have kids if they aren't. I am talking about the community leaders, the people you see on TV. I can't remember any that urge people to obey police. I see plenty calling saying the police are bad, they will execute you, de fund the police, etc... That gets people killed.

I've been pulled over, had my car searched, been given tickets too. Being a dumb kid. But never had a problem, because I caused no trouble.
 
jaeger19 said:
Yep..white people do get profiled.
Here is what is ironic
When white people are profiled..the policexare much much more likely to find an issue or contraband.
When black people are profiled they are LESS likely to find and issue and contraband.
Yet they pull over black people at higher rates.
And they are statistically more likely to use force on a minority.

As an aside..think about what you said.
"I also didn't get shot because I cooperated, kept my cool, let the cop do his job without interuption and didn't complain about any of it".
So basically that states..to not get shot you have to be more cool...more sensible..and more respectful....than the professional police officer..
Kind of a sad commentary on policing.
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No it's not. You have full knowledge of what's going on in your world and the cop doesn't. It only makes sense to figure out what the cop has in mind and the best way to do that is to listen. Furthermore, listening tends to show composure and respect, two things you should show ANY person that engages you in a professional capacity.
 
jaeger19 said:
The truth is white people get a pass more often or not...
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I was once stopped at a red light. Guy on the corner came up to my passenger side window and asked me for a cigarette. Gave him one and he went on his way. When the light turned green, I didn’t even have time to move because a cruiser was behind me with their lights on. Female cop asks me to exit the vehicle, questioned me about what just happened and proceeded to frisk me with my hands on the hood of my car. Then she proceeds to pretty much rip the inside of my car apart. Apparently she thought it was a drug deal. In the meantime, another cruiser pulls up. So I’m standing there next to the other cop while the first cop is tearing the inside of my car apart. I explain to him quickly what just happened and point, for verification, to the guy I gave a cigarette to and who is now on the other side of the street watching what’s going on. Cop turns to me and shrugs his shoulders as if to say, nothing I can do.

This all happened right in my neighborhood. Very humiliating and very embarrassing.

Another time, I got pulled over for going a few miles over the speed limit. Cop comes up to my window, yelling and swearing. Kept my cool, and said yes sir and no sir. Took the ticket, went on my way, and thought to myself, what the hell was that all about.

For every incident that you claim is bias, there are probably dozens of similar, like me, who have gone through pretty much the same thing your sons have encountered,

The difference is, we just accept that things like that are going to happen, and they do. You act civil, keep your mouth shut, and show the proper respect, even when they may be disrespectful to you.

As other posters have alluded to, if you view these encounters fundamentally different and attach a malicious intent, where there is arguably none, and further, promote to certain people that civility and respect, with regard to encounters with law enforcement, is (and to be kind here) meaningless, then you are part of the problem that plagues this country right now.
 
tres borrachos said:
It isn't in that screenshot. Stop with the hysterics and personal attacks and read my posts.

It is not in the screenshot. There is nothing in that screenshot that any rational person would see and say "He had the taser in a position to harm the police officer."

If you can't post like an adult just say so and I will move on. I'm not here to convince you of what I see. I am here to post about what I see. You are free to see something different.
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The question is whether he posed an threat of death or great bodily harm toward the officer. Your statement should be whether a police officer, in his position, would feel he was in danger. Would a 'rational person' say "He had the officer's weapon that he just wrestled away from him and refused to drop it"?
 
csense said:
I was once stopped at a red light. Guy on the corner came up to my passenger side window and asked me for a cigarette. Gave him one and he went on his way. When the light turned green, I didn’t even have time to move because a cruiser was behind me with their lights on. Female cop asks me to exit the vehicle, questioned me about what just happened and proceeded to frisk me with my hands on the hood of my car. Then she proceeds to pretty much rip the inside of my car apart. Apparently she thought it was a drug deal. In the meantime, another cruiser pulls up. So I’m standing there next to the other cop while the first cop is tearing the inside of my car apart. I explain to him quickly what just happened and point, for verification, to the guy I gave a cigarette to and who is now on the other side of the street watching what’s going on. Cop turns to me and shrugs his shoulders as if to say, nothing I can do.

This all happened right in my neighborhood. Very humiliating and very embarrassing.

Another time, I got pulled over for going a few miles over the speed limit. Cop comes up to my window, yelling and swearing. Kept my cool, and said yes sir and no sir. Took the ticket, went on my way, and thought to myself, what the hell was that all about.

For every incident that you claim is bias, there are probably dozens of similar, like me, who have gone through pretty much the same thing your sons have encountered,

The difference is, we just accept that things like that are going to happen, and they do. You act civil, keep your mouth shut, and show the proper respect, even when they may be disrespectful to you.

As other posters have alluded to, if you view these encounters fundamentally different and attach a malicious intent, where there is arguably none, and further, promote to certain people that civility and respect, with regard to encounters with law enforcement, is (and to be kind here) meaningless, then you are part of the problem that plagues this country right now.
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Studies show that these incidents happen statistically to minorities more..that the police are less likely to find contraband when they search and the police are more likely to use force...on minorities despite the same behavior as whites..

But cool stories bro...
 
Lutherf said:
No it's not. You have full knowledge of what's going on in your world and the cop doesn't. It only makes sense to figure out what the cop has in mind and the best way to do that is to listen. Furthermore, listening tends to show composure and respect, two things you should show ANY person that engages you in a professional capacity.
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But the difference is the cop is tge one who is essentially the initiator..he is the one given authority and he is the one with a firearm.
He is tge one that is being PAID TO PROTECT AND SERVE.
So when he screams rapid commands at my patient with hearing deficits..
When he screams commands to kneel..to my patient with a total knee.
When he demands my patient with brain injury follow fast multi step commands..
When he approaches my patient a disabled vet with ptsd..
When he demands my patient with adhesive capsulitis put his hands on his head and lace his fingers.
He is tge one that has to see it from the citizens point of view and be professional.
 
Anthony60 said:
I certainly hope parents are telling their kids to obey the police. They should not have kids if they aren't. I am talking about the community leaders, the people you see on TV. I can't remember any that urge people to obey police. I see plenty calling saying the police are bad, they will execute you, de fund the police, etc... That gets people killed.

I've been pulled over, had my car searched, been given tickets too. Being a dumb kid. But never had a problem, because I caused no trouble.
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That's because community leaders are saying this things to get the police to change.
Or do you contend that citizens have no right to address issues with their government.
Community leaders don't need to talk about obeying the police because tge community already knows.
 
jaeger19 said:
But the difference is the cop is tge one who is essentially the initiator..he is the one given authority and he is the one with a firearm.
He is tge one that is being PAID TO PROTECT AND SERVE.
So when he screams rapid commands at my patient with hearing deficits..
When he screams commands to kneel..to my patient with a total knee.
When he demands my patient with brain injury follow fast multi step commands..
When he approaches my patient a disabled vet with ptsd..
When he demands my patient with adhesive capsulitis put his hands on his head and lace his fingers.
He is tge one that has to see it from the citizens point of view and be professional.
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Back to drag this out 30 more pages?

🤯🤯🤯
 
jaeger19 said:
But the difference is the cop is tge one who is essentially the initiator..he is the one given authority and he is the one with a firearm.
He is tge one that is being PAID TO PROTECT AND SERVE.
So when he screams rapid commands at my patient with hearing deficits..
When he screams commands to kneel..to my patient with a total knee.
When he demands my patient with brain injury follow fast multi step commands..
When he approaches my patient a disabled vet with ptsd..
When he demands my patient with adhesive capsulitis put his hands on his head and lace his fingers.
He is tge one that has to see it from the citizens point of view and be professional.
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Generally speaking, the cop's commands are easy to understand even without understanding the language. If youy don't know what the cop is saying of can't physically comply then just stop what you're doing and present as little a threat as possible.

Several years ago a guy by the name of Erik Scott was shot and killed by police outside a Summerlin, NV Costco. The cops screamed conflicting commands, Scott reacted to show his sidearm was still in the holster and the cops wasted him. It was a pretty bad shoot but even his family dropped then suit because Scott reached, meaning to draw or not. Scott panicked and that''s what did him in. If he had just stood there with his hands up until someone took control he'd be alive today.

The question isn't always whether you are in the right or in the wrong. The question is ALWAYS whether what you are doing is going to get you killed or not. Rule #1 when confronted by an armed cop is to keep your cool and be ass non-threatening as possible. Lyoya chose a different path and THAT is what got him killed, justifiably.
 
jaeger19 said:
Studies show that these incidents happen statistically to minorities more..
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I very much doubt that the encounters I had, ever made it into any statistical database from which you draw your conclusions. In fact, I’m certain of it. The same could be said for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of similar encounters over the years.

There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics

There’s a reason why that phrase has been quoted often over the years. Because it’s true.

Christ said that we see through a glass darkly. Though he meant that for profound circumstances, it seems to apply to human nature in general. Some can’t see, while others choose not to.
 
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jaeger19 said:
That's because community leaders are saying this things to get the police to change.
Or do you contend that citizens have no right to address issues with their government.
Community leaders don't need to talk about obeying the police because tge community already knows.
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Community leaders that are promoting this violence don't care about the community, just politics. It helps them politically, they don't care who dies.
 
Lutherf said:
Yeah, cops pull people over for mundane stuff. I once got pulled over on the freeway for a crack in my windshield. The cop questioned me for about 5 min regarding where I was coming from and where I was going. A backup squad even showed up. I knew EXACTLY why he pulled me over too and it wasn't the windshield. My vehicle happened to be a perfect profile for a drug mule and I was on I-10 heading south..wearing sunglasses right out of central casting for every narco flick you've ever seen. I was even armed. Got a warning about the windshield and got followed to the gas station at the next exit where he and the other car kept a close eye on me from the other side of the lot as I filled up. I was totally profiled, knew I was profiled and...didn't give a rats ass about it because that's what the cops on that corridor are trained to look for, and with good reason.
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Yep, it what cops are paid to do, investigate. However, I would not say you were "profiled" in the way that term is understood. Not like "driving while black". What they did was a 'pretext stop'. The cracked windshield being a vehicle equipment violation gave them the probable cause to make a traffic stop FOR THE WINDSHIELD, and then pivot to investigating what they were looking for, which is as you said, vehicles transporting drugs. Police can use any equipment or moving violation to make a stop. Police see pretext stops as a useful tool to begin a fishing expedition. A good reason to make sure you don't have burned out brake lights, illegally tinted windows, expired tags, or no front license plate (in some states). Then after that, make sure not to speed, make full stops at stop signs, and always signal for turns.
 
Lutherf said:
Generally speaking, the cop's commands are easy to understand even without understanding the language. If youy don't know what the cop is saying of can't physically comply then just stop what you're doing and present as little a threat as possible.

Several years ago a guy by the name of Erik Scott was shot and killed by police outside a Summerlin, NV Costco. The cops screamed conflicting commands, Scott reacted to show his sidearm was still in the holster and the cops wasted him. It was a pretty bad shoot but even his family dropped then suit because Scott reached, meaning to draw or not. Scott panicked and that''s what did him in. If he had just stood there with his hands up until someone took control he'd be alive today.

The question isn't always whether you are in the right or in the wrong. The question is ALWAYS whether what you are doing is going to get you killed or not. Rule #1 when confronted by an armed cop is to keep your cool and be ass non-threatening as possible. Lyoya chose a different path and THAT is what got him killed, justifiably.
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I agree. Sometimes police give poor commands, or conflicting commands. Not al cops are cool under stress, and if they see a gun...well, no way are they certain if you are a good guy or a bad guy until the find out for sure.

I always tell people that if a cop of cops (because sometimes the confusion comes when multiple cops are shouting commands), that if you are uncertain, to just freeze. Keep hands up, palms open, be sure not to pull your pants up or reach, and if necessary lay on the ground with legs and arms spread and open palms up. Because if they aren't giving clear commands, and they are stressed/scared, and you are scared; I don't see a cop shooting somebody who is face down on the ground no matter what commands that person isn't following.

Sometimes during a felony traffic stop, and when there are, or may be other people in the car. Officers want the driver to exit first, keep hands up, then walk backward toward the officer until they can cuff them. They want to do this because the officers do not want approach near the vehicle, especially with other people in the car, until they have cleared them and the car first. Officer do not want expose themselves. However, sometimes there is lot going on, and several cops are shouting conflicting commands and the driver/subject gets confused and makes a bad move. Point here is, even if the cops have poor training or procedures, you can still slow everything down and just refuse to move until the police get their act together. There was scared drunk man shot in Arizona a few years ago who after getting conflicting commands made the mistake of reaching down to pull his falling pants up and a cop wasted him. You may have seen the video? Poor guy was just very scared and very drunk. It was a very bad shoot.
 
It's the continuation of the National Police Crime Wave against unarmed black males.

Predictable and unchecked as it remains among police departments.

Supported forever by MAGAs everywhere.
 
jaeger19 said:
Oh pooh.
No one who knows anything about actual tasers or had them used is going to believe you over the manufacturer.
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Thankfully, they don't have to make the choice, since I'm not contradicting Axon, just you and your inability to distinguish between Axon's technical terminology and lay language.

Cripes.. I did an inservice on the use of the drive stun function and the problems with trying to use pain compliance on a suspect and how and why it can backfire.
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No, you didn't. Your inexplicable denial of the most basic concept regarding how uses of force are judged says you have no LE experience at all. The only shield you ever wore came with a healthy coat of Cracker Jack dust.

I imagine a taser instructor would instruct on pain compliance methods while using the taser in the manner indicated by the manual. People who steal tasers from officers have no such training and can't be relied upon to use the taser in the manner in which it is intended. Any actual LEO would know this.

Cripes man.. now all of a sudden... the suspect in question is able to hold the drive stun.. while he is on all fours with the policeman on him.. and his weight is on his right elbow and forearm.. the one with the taser underneath it. He is now going to be able to contort enough to hold the taser against the neck or "balls"of the police officer..
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Based on his ability to defeat the officer's control efforts throughout the entire encounter, it is not unrealistic to think he could turn just a little and get a good angle. (There's that "totality of circumstances" thing again...)

and the officer of course has no opportunity to simply back away and create space. Or react in any way to keep the taser from touching him.
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It's very possible he couldn't effectively back away. Can you hear him after the shooting? The guy is gassed. He's got nothing left in the tank. I miscalculated the length of the encounter earlier. It wasn't almost a minute and a half. It was more than a minute longer. Two minutes and 28 seconds from the first physical contact to the shot. A good amount of that time was spent fighting on the ground. I'd have no problem believing he didn't think he could create distance just based on that. I think he'd have been justified in deadly force anyway, but that's just more TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES to consider.

Just stop. You are taking up bandwidth with your desperate posts.
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Says the guy who says dumb ****ing shit like "there is no totality of circumstances" in deadly force.

Stop spreading your ignorance.
 
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