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Michigan cop on Black man's back, fatally shot him

I'm not in favor of extrajudicial imposition of the death penalty, particularly for non-capital offenses.
 
Cope said:
There likely is yes.

Do we see the media, BLM, and Democratic politicians rushing to decry actions of the police to those stricken with poverty? Or just to Blacks?
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Do you see any government funded "memorial" to the homosexuals that the Nazis murdered? Do you see any "national remembrance day" dedicated to the Romany that the Nazis murdered?

Some people just aren't all that good at PR (or aren't interested in harping about situations which don't really have any bearing on present day society for political reasons).
 
justabubba said:
it would appear that you used as an example to defend your argument something you now acknowledge did not happen
when lies are all you have to defend your assertion you have clearly lost
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Well.. that seems to be the case here for those defending the policeman...
See how that works? So you can call others liars but not me...

Because at the end of the day.. the facts are that the officer was not in any imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury.
 
justabubba said:
the inital police stop was due to tags that did not match the auto registration
as the driver, he perpetrated that driving violation
and as we now know, he was drunk at about thrice the legal limit,
which allows us to conclude the driver perpetrated drunk driving on the public roads
information indicates the driver was wanted on an arrest warrant. for an arrest warrant to have been issued, the named party must have perpetrated an illicit act

then school me by sharing why the above presentation makes the now deceased to be other than a perpetrator of legal violations
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Nope, nope and nope. You've imposed your own conclusions on equivocal information to perpetuate your bias. 1) He was stopped allegedly for plates inconsistent with the registration. There is no evidence thus far produced that indicates he was responsible for that discrepancy. 2) The the record does not indicate he was suspected of drunk driving prior to his death. 3) The record does not indicate the attempted arrest was based on an outstanding warrant.

At best he is "suspected" of non-violent offenses. Your use of the term "perp" indicates a presumption of guilt, and implies a level of guilt not supported by the record. I suspect that bias is racially motivated.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Try using the actual term which is "Black".
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apologies
i filled in the word that i believed most appropriate for the cop's circumstances
my assumption was the driver was pulled over for having tags which did not match the vehicle's registration
did not read that the basis for stopping the driver was because he was driving while black
i look forward to reading such a citation, documenting the traffic stop was not a legitimate one
 
justabubba said:
apologies
i filled in the word that i believed most appropriate for the cop's circumstances
my assumption was the driver was pulled over for having tags which did not match the vehicle's registration
did not read that the basis for stopping the driver was because he was driving while black
i look forward to reading such a citation, documenting the traffic stop was not a legitimate one
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You'll just have to wait for the trial - I suppose, because there is absolutely no way that any police officer is going to put "I pulled him over because he was a N***er." into their official police report.
 
NWRatCon said:
You cannot win this, my friend. Grizzly has an extremely long history of "making up facts" to support his fantasy narratives. It's best not to engage delusional outbursts.
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Lie.
 
jaeger19 said:
The officer has to have a reasonable belief he is in imminent danger of death or grave bodily harm.
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Given the totality of circumstances that I have described more times than I can count, a reasonable officer could conclude Lyoya presented a threat of death or serious bodily injury.

He doesn't get to say..well he was walking away... but he " coulda turned..coulda ran toward me..coulda pulled a knife and coulda stabbed me" ..
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Good thing no one's saying that, then.

2. Yeah no. Everything you describe was defensive.
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There is no defensive response to a lawful action by police. There was no defense necessary. The officer did nothing until Lyoya did something, and every "something" Lyoya did was met with a reasonable response by the officer, per the GRPD use of force policy.

3. There was no increased level of escalation from the suspect. Only the officer.
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Garbage. Read the policy. Every action the officer took was in response to an action by Lyoya. The officer's use of force never exceeded Lyoya's level of resistance.

4. You mean excited?
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I mean what I said: Exhausted.

Video:


Shot is at 19:02; huffing and puffing visible in the cold air for five seconds while he sits on Lyoya's back before the tells the passenger to get back. He doesn't even get off Lyoya's back until 19:16. At 19:19 his fatigue is still audible in his voice when he again tells the passenger to get back. At 19:22 he radios the shooting by saying, "1915...{pauses for about 2.5 seconds}...I was just...{pause to breathe again}...involved in a shooting." At 19:45 he radios again, still struggling to catch his breath.

Exhausted.

5. I never claimed he would be " fine".
First it hurts. And only an idiot would 1. Allow it...2. Not recoil from it which is in part why it's not incapacitating.
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Recoiling is easier said than done after a 2.5-minute fight. And even he managed to recoil, he would still be disabled for a time after the stun and vulnerable.

The officer was not in a position for your coulda to happen when he shot the suspect.
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Like not having to wait to be stabbed or shot, the officer need not wait to be tased to act on the risk of being tased, depending on the totality of circumstances. Those circumstances, for the billionth time, demonstrate Lyoya's determination to escape, getting from from the officer's control and escalating his resistance at every turn, to the point of stealing the taser. It is entirely reasonable to think he would use it. The taser can disable an officer, even in drive stun mode, is applied in certain areas, and even if it doesn't cause neuro-muscular incapacitation.

Lyoya was in the driver's seat of this encounter the entire time. He could have stopped his escalation. He didn't. He continued to escalate to the point of being a reasonable threat of death or serious bodily injury. Lyoya did this. It's on him.

And unless you have something new to add to this discussion, I'm done with you.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
If the police officer, routinely checks the licence plates of "every ____ car that is driven by a ____ male" then there is a term for that practice and it isn't allowed.
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What is your evidence this is what the officer was doing?

If you have none, you're just making shit up.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
If the police officer, routinely checks the licence plates of "every ____ car that is driven by a ____ male" then there is a term for that practice and it isn't allowed.
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I love how Im constantly getting lectured about how innocent minorities are being treated like criminals JUST FOR BEING BLACK. Then when it comes to rally around the "victims of racism" theyre literally always like a puppy murderer or something.

thepostmillennial.com

Man fatally shot by police in Michigan formerly convicted of assaulting pregnant woman

In 2017, Lyoya was convicted of assaulting a pregnant woman. Lyoya violated his probation and did not pay his fine, resulting in the state garnishing his wages beginning in 2019.
thepostmillennial.com thepostmillennial.com

Also just to head off the smart ass question, yes, I unironically think someone who hurts pregnant women this deserves to die. Everyone on this board, and in this thread, really really insists that I need to have more empathy and love for innocent kind rappers getting their lives together who just happen to brutalize women like this guy and Floyd, but there just is no empathy in my black evil heart for these children of God.
 
That was quick.
 
NWRatCon said:
I'm not in favor of extrajudicial imposition of the death penalty, particularly for non-capital offenses.
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Which is a ridiculously dishonest way to frame self defense. Guess what, EVERY exercise of the right to self defense is "extrajudicial." You dont need a court order to shoot someone trying to stab you to death. There is literally not a single case of self defense that would meet your criteria. Self Defense Law is extremely clear that there are several situations where lethal force is justified to prevent a crime that isnt a "Capital Offense." Since 1977 the Supreme Court has struck down laws enforcing the death penalty for FORCIBLE RAPE. Hope no fine upstanding pillar of the community ever attempts to rape someone you love because youd never support the "extrajudicial imposition of the death penalty" for that. Just gotta lay there and take it.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Do you see any government funded "memorial" to the homosexuals that the Nazis murdered? Do you see any "national remembrance day" dedicated to the Romany that the Nazis murdered?

Some people just aren't all that good at PR (or aren't interested in harping about situations which don't really have any bearing on present day society for political reasons).
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OR (which is the real answer), they don't really care but they sure do find it politically expedient.
 
NWRatCon said:
I'm not in favor of extrajudicial imposition of the death penalty, particularly for non-capital offenses.
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Fun fact: attempted murder is not a capital offense.

@NWRatCon thinks you can't kill in self defense until you've been murdered. (And only in a state with the death penalty!)
 
Grizzly Adams said:
Given the totality of circumstances that I have described more times than I can count, a reasonable officer could conclude Lyoya presented a threat of death or serious bodily injury.


Good thing no one's saying that, then.


There is no defensive response to a lawful action by police. There was no defense necessary. The officer did nothing until Lyoya did something, and every "something" Lyoya did was met with a reasonable response by the officer, per the GRPD use of force policy.


Garbage. Read the policy. Every action the officer took was in response to an action by Lyoya. The officer's use of force never exceeded Lyoya's level of resistance.


I mean what I said: Exhausted.

Video:


Shot is at 19:02; huffing and puffing visible in the cold air for five seconds while he sits on Lyoya's back before the tells the passenger to get back. He doesn't even get off Lyoya's back until 19:16. At 19:19 his fatigue is still audible in his voice when he again tells the passenger to get back. At 19:22 he radios the shooting by saying, "1915...{pauses for about 2.5 seconds}...I was just...{pause to breathe again}...involved in a shooting." At 19:45 he radios again, still struggling to catch his breath.

Exhausted.


Recoiling is easier said than done after a 2.5-minute fight. And even he managed to recoil, he would still be disabled for a time after the stun and vulnerable.


Like not having to wait to be stabbed or shot, the officer need not wait to be tased to act on the risk of being tased, depending on the totality of circumstances. Those circumstances, for the billionth time, demonstrate Lyoya's determination to escape, getting from from the officer's control and escalating his resistance at every turn, to the point of stealing the taser. It is entirely reasonable to think he would use it. The taser can disable an officer, even in drive stun mode, is applied in certain areas, and even if it doesn't cause neuro-muscular incapacitation.

Lyoya was in the driver's seat of this encounter the entire time. He could have stopped his escalation. He didn't. He continued to escalate to the point of being a reasonable threat of death or serious bodily injury. Lyoya did this. It's on him.

And unless you have something new to add to this discussion, I'm done with you.
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1. No you aren't using the totality of circumstances..you are omitting things that happened and making things up that didn't.
The suspect didn't act aggressively but simply tried to get away. You cannot point to a kick ..a punch a slap etc.
The taser was deployed and on drive stun that even the manufacturer states won't incapacitate. When the suspect was shot there was zero opportunity for the drive stun to be applied to the officer's face or groin. And doing such would cause the officer to recoil. Exhausted? Please..two minutes of lying on the man's back and he is exhausted? He is not exhausted..he is barely winded after shooting the guy it's the adrenaline dump and the fact that he just took a life.
2. Bingo. You demonstrate the essence of " comply or die".
If anyone watched the videos and didn't know which waswould be the police officer...
Clearly ..everyone would know WHO WAS THE AGGRESSOR.. and who was just trying to get away from the conflict. . And of course it would be the man who was the police officer who was the aggressor.

But because there is a police officer YOU make up a whole different definition of aggression. . A fantasy definition.
3. Yeah not Exhausted. 2.5 minutes of activity. Adrenaline and the realization he has just killed.
4. Again
If we simply watched the behavior of the two men..it was the officer that was clearly escalating the conflict.
However you make up a new definition of escalation because it's a cop.
Comply or die...
 
Ruby Wizard said:
Which is a ridiculously dishonest way to frame self defense. Guess what, EVERY exercise of the right to self defense is "extrajudicial." You dont need a court order to shoot someone trying to stab you to death. There is literally not a single case of self defense that would meet your criteria. Self Defense Law is extremely clear that there are several situations where lethal force is justified to prevent a crime that isnt a "Capital Offense." Since 1977 the Supreme Court has struck down laws enforcing the death penalty for FORCIBLE RAPE. Hope no fine upstanding pillar of the community ever attempts to rape someone you love because youd never support the "extrajudicial imposition of the death penalty" for that. Just gotta lay there and take it.
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Obviously you have no education in the law, law enforcement procedures, rhetoric or logic.

Here's the gist - force, including lethal force, is only justified in certain circumstances. There is an escalating rubric for the application of force. This officer ignored the whole ball of wax. In most jurisdictions, the aggressor cannot claim self-defense. Do a little reading my friend. Goodbye again.
 
NWRatCon said:
Obviously you have no education in the law, law enforcement procedures, rhetoric or logic.

Here's the gist - force, including lethal force, is only justified in certain circumstances. There is an escalating rubric for the application of force. This officer ignored the whole ball of wax. In most jurisdictions, the aggressor cannot claim self-defense. Do a little reading my friend. Goodbye again.
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Hes not the aggressor the dude grabbed his taser and had it. I could have sworn the timestamp/screencap was posted in this thread already. And yes someone trying to taze you is a situation in which you are legally justified to use lethal force.
 
Ruby Wizard said:
Hes not the aggressor the dude grabbed his taser and had it. I could have sworn the timestamp/screencap was posted in this thread already. And yes someone trying to taze you is a situation in which you are legally justified to use lethal force.
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Yep, the old "He started it when he hit me back." argument strikes again.
 
Id also like to add you think that this guy being pulled over was some great tragedy, that he was "profiled." But he did in fact viciously beat a pregnant woman. Profiling was in fact correct here.
 
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